Birgitte

[Naggash]

Birgitte, when she first appeared in TAR was just a soul, right? So.... then she got shunted into the real world by Moghedien and was then made of flesh and bone. Though she needed the Bond to survive.

 

What is she?

She is a person plain normal. She needed the bond to survive because Mog left her very weakened, and the Warder bond strengthens the Warder.

I think the specifics of what Mog did are still unknown, but she 'weaved her into the Pattern' or 'riped her out of the TAR'. It would be easier to explain if you supported the TAR-RW theory.

[Naggash]

So that's how Moghedien got caught by the a'dam? I never understood how she ended up in an a'dam after the dream.

Nyn put her to sleep, then they searched for her, found her and put her the a'dam.

[Terez]

heh, the arrow, an inanimate object. birgette exits tar naked with only an arrow. don't ask me what it means, not a clue here, but it is quite a curious thing.

Maybe that arrow still has the Heroe-Birgitte power inside and will be used in the LB against a Forsaken or something (don't know where or how but I'm sure it will be used,and it'll be important).

 

Elayne used it to make Moghedien's a'dam.

Nice one. Not concluding but probable.

 

What do you mean 'not concluding'? That's what she did with it' it's a fact, not speculation.

[kght22]

heh, the arrow, an inanimate object. birgette exits tar naked with only an arrow. don't ask me what it means, not a clue here, but it is quite a curious thing.

Maybe that arrow still has the Heroe-Birgitte power inside and will be used in the LB against a Forsaken or something (don't know where or how but I'm sure it will be used,and it'll be important).

 

Elayne used it to make Moghedien's a'dam.

Nice one. Not concluding but probable.

 

What do you mean 'not concluding'? That's what she did with it' it's a fact, not speculation.

i suspect what was meant was not conclusive, but the evidence is in a chapter with nyn and egwene, they actually mention at some point that they used birgette's arrow to create a necklace and a bracelet. i remember it happening, i need to do a reread, but i distinctly remember that. i had to have the reminder first, but birgitte's arrow is gone because of that.

[A. Pseudonym]

Birgitte, when she first appeared in TAR was just a soul, right? So.... then she got shunted into the real world by Moghedien and was then made of flesh and bone. Though she needed the Bond to survive.

 

What is she?

She is a person plain normal. She needed the bond to survive because Mog left her very weakened, and the Warder bond strengthens the Warder.

I think the specifics of what Mog did are still unknown, but she 'weaved her into the Pattern' or 'riped her out of the TAR'. It would be easier to explain if you supported the TAR-RW theory.

 

Fine, but my question was more metaphysical.

 

We'll go with the TAR-RW thing. I'd seen it before and yes it is very interesting. Consider this:

The RW is a dream construct of TAR maintained by the Creator (even though he's supposed to be absent, but forget that). The RW is not fluid in the sense that it cannot be manipulated by thought alone. TAR is. That seems to be the main difference.

Birgitte was originally a soul in the fluid TAR reality cast into the non-fluid reality, which resulted in a weakened state near death.

 

To look at it from another angle: in RW, when a person dies their soul leaves their body and goes off wherever it goes to be reincarnated. This suggests there is a requirement for souls to be housed in some sort of vessel in order for them to function in RW. Yet, Birgitte's soul emerges in RW without such a vessel.

It seems to me that by this logic Moghedien in sending Birgitte's soul to RW created a vessel to house her at the same time - her body. That, or Birgitte's body is the .... embodiment... of her soul and that when she dies in RW it will be a final death because it will constitute the death of her soul. Which I don't think is what is going to happen, given Rand.

 

I mean... she wasn't born from a woman, she didn't grow after twenty or so years of eating food and acquiring bodymass. She popped out of nothing into reality. What is her body made of? TAR-material?

[Luckers]

So that's how Moghedien got caught by the a'dam? I never understood how she ended up in an a'dam after the dream.

 

Basically, Nynaeve figured out who Moghedien was disguised as from her comments about Siuan and Falion. She then gave Moghedien a heavy dose of Forkroot (which she created in the dream, but apparently the effects of narcotics follow through from the dream to the body much like injuries do). Then, whilst Moghedien was drugged out of her mind Nynaeve woke up and told Elayne, who used Birgitte's arrow to make an a'dam, which they then took over and leashed the still unconcious Moghedien.

[kght22]

i think it is is tfoh or acos. but i am not sure, just remember that after the two went down the river, and got to salidor/salidar (my memory is clearly crap) that when nyn and birgette (after she has been ejected) face moggy again nyn tricks moggy into accepting the leash, then nyn feeds her some nastyness in the dream, and she accepts that. when she wakes up they have in a hurry a a'dam, which they had given up the leashes that they had brought to salidar to the aes sedai, it is the first ter'angreal that elayne ever makes, and she makes it out of the only silver she has, birgitte's arrow.

[TristanWebb]

Birgitte, when she first appeared in TAR was just a soul, right? So.... then she got shunted into the real world by Moghedien and was then made of flesh and bone. Though she needed the Bond to survive.

 

What is she?

She is a person plain normal. She needed the bond to survive because Mog left her very weakened, and the Warder bond strengthens the Warder.

I think the specifics of what Mog did are still unknown, but she 'weaved her into the Pattern' or 'riped her out of the TAR'. It would be easier to explain if you supported the TAR-RW theory.

 

Fine, but my question was more metaphysical.

 

We'll go with the TAR-RW thing. I'd seen it before and yes it is very interesting. Consider this:

The RW is a dream construct of TAR maintained by the Creator (even though he's supposed to be absent, but forget that). The RW is not fluid in the sense that it cannot be manipulated by thought alone. TAR is. That seems to be the main difference.

Birgitte was originally a soul in the fluid TAR reality cast into the non-fluid reality, which resulted in a weakened state near death.

 

To look at it from another angle: in RW, when a person dies their soul leaves their body and goes off wherever it goes to be reincarnated. This suggests there is a requirement for souls to be housed in some sort of vessel in order for them to function in RW. Yet, Birgitte's soul emerges in RW without such a vessel.

It seems to me that by this logic Moghedien in sending Birgitte's soul to RW created a vessel to house her at the same time - her body. That, or Birgitte's body is the .... embodiment... of her soul and that when she dies in RW it will be a final death because it will constitute the death of her soul. Which I don't think is what is going to happen, given Rand.

 

I mean... she wasn't born from a woman, she didn't grow after twenty or so years of eating food and acquiring bodymass. She popped out of nothing into reality. What is her body made of? TAR-material?

So, does Birgitte have a navel?

[kght22]

Birgitte, when she first appeared in TAR was just a soul, right? So.... then she got shunted into the real world by Moghedien and was then made of flesh and bone. Though she needed the Bond to survive.

 

What is she?

She is a person plain normal. She needed the bond to survive because Mog left her very weakened, and the Warder bond strengthens the Warder.

I think the specifics of what Mog did are still unknown, but she 'weaved her into the Pattern' or 'riped her out of the TAR'. It would be easier to explain if you supported the TAR-RW theory.

 

Fine, but my question was more metaphysical.

 

We'll go with the TAR-RW thing. I'd seen it before and yes it is very interesting. Consider this:

The RW is a dream construct of TAR maintained by the Creator (even though he's supposed to be absent, but forget that). The RW is not fluid in the sense that it cannot be manipulated by thought alone. TAR is. That seems to be the main difference.

Birgitte was originally a soul in the fluid TAR reality cast into the non-fluid reality, which resulted in a weakened state near death.

 

To look at it from another angle: in RW, when a person dies their soul leaves their body and goes off wherever it goes to be reincarnated. This suggests there is a requirement for souls to be housed in some sort of vessel in order for them to function in RW. Yet, Birgitte's soul emerges in RW without such a vessel.

It seems to me that by this logic Moghedien in sending Birgitte's soul to RW created a vessel to house her at the same time - her body. That, or Birgitte's body is the .... embodiment... of her soul and that when she dies in RW it will be a final death because it will constitute the death of her soul. Which I don't think is what is going to happen, given Rand.

 

I mean... she wasn't born from a woman, she didn't grow after twenty or so years of eating food and acquiring bodymass. She popped out of nothing into reality. What is her body made of? TAR-material?

So, does Birgitte have a navel?

i don't know, when you dream of yourself, do you have superflous things? i bet you do ;)

[Cybertrolloc]

Get a ref on where it mentions the arrow being used for that purpose please?

[Mr Ares]

As my personal view of the various Heroes of the Horn has always been one that they are not necessarily 'souls' as we know them in WoT so much as they are archetypes of heroic ideals that are given life by Tel'Aran'Rhiod itself (for where else would the archetypical heroes exist but in the dreams of men), I do wonder at this point.

Given that it's possible for people to become Heroes, I'd say the evidence suggests that they are souls as we know them, not merely archetypes given flesh.

[Terez]

Get a ref on where it mentions the arrow being used for that purpose please?

 

LOC prologue

[TristanWebb]

On her left wrist Nynaeve wore a slender bracelet, a simple segmented silver band. Mainly silver, anyway, and from a special source, though that made no difference.

 

I guess this is it. Not conclusive, but then what is in WoT?

[Naresh]

As my personal view of the various Heroes of the Horn has always been one that they are not necessarily 'souls' as we know them in WoT so much as they are archetypes of heroic ideals that are given life by Tel'Aran'Rhiod itself (for where else would the archetypical heroes exist but in the dreams of men), I do wonder at this point.

Given that it's possible for people to become Heroes, I'd say the evidence suggests that they are souls as we know them, not merely archetypes given flesh.

 

But does the soul of the living person themselves become the Hero, or do the legends and memories of the world at large surrounding that person create a Hero in their image? Being so wholly tied to Tel'Aran'Rhiod as they are, which is not normal for any soul, the latter just seems to make the most sense to me.

 

T'A'R's status as the 'third constant' alongside the Creator and Dark one tends to lend credence to the idea that it's not exactly a part of the Wheel, but a reflection of all the experiences and knowledge of life itself. Not unlike what our-world mystics call the Akashic records. It exists on an entirely subconscious level, only temporarily molded by the conscious actions of those few who can enter it consciously, which is why I tend to believe the archetype theory more than the soul one. That one can enter it physically is moot, because that can only be accomplished by the use of an extraordinary power drawn from the very power source of the Wheel itself which makes all manner of physical laws stand on end.

[TristanWebb]

People put too much emphasis on the third constant thing. There is one source for it, who turned out to be black and just doing it to mess with the DO.

[Naggash]

Birgitte, when she first appeared in TAR was just a soul, right? So.... then she got shunted into the real world by Moghedien and was then made of flesh and bone. Though she needed the Bond to survive.

 

What is she?

She is a person plain normal. She needed the bond to survive because Mog left her very weakened, and the Warder bond strengthens the Warder.

I think the specifics of what Mog did are still unknown, but she 'weaved her into the Pattern' or 'riped her out of the TAR'. It would be easier to explain if you supported the TAR-RW theory.

 

Fine, but my question was more metaphysical.

 

We'll go with the TAR-RW thing. I'd seen it before and yes it is very interesting. Consider this:

The RW is a dream construct of TAR maintained by the Creator (even though he's supposed to be absent, but forget that). The RW is not fluid in the sense that it cannot be manipulated by thought alone. TAR is. That seems to be the main difference.

Birgitte was originally a soul in the fluid TAR reality cast into the non-fluid reality, which resulted in a weakened state near death.

 

To look at it from another angle: in RW, when a person dies their soul leaves their body and goes off wherever it goes to be reincarnated. This suggests there is a requirement for souls to be housed in some sort of vessel in order for them to function in RW. Yet, Birgitte's soul emerges in RW without such a vessel.

It seems to me that by this logic Moghedien in sending Birgitte's soul to RW created a vessel to house her at the same time - her body. That, or Birgitte's body is the .... embodiment... of her soul and that when she dies in RW it will be a final death because it will constitute the death of her soul. Which I don't think is what is going to happen, given Rand.

 

I mean... she wasn't born from a woman, she didn't grow after twenty or so years of eating food and acquiring bodymass. She popped out of nothing into reality. What is her body made of? TAR-material?

Well, I suppose you give it too much thought. Not that it is wrong to do that but sometimes authors take liberties for the sake of narration, so I think she indeed has a body, without much explanation. Maybe the creation of this body wasn't Mog's doing specifically, and the reason why Birgitte is SO weakened (in TAR she had been beaten hard but still nothing new to her; not THAT bad anyway) is because it took a huge lot of her energy to 'create herself a body' in the process of riping her out of TAR.

[FarShainMael]

Get a ref on where it mentions the arrow being used for that purpose please?

 

Birgitte's silver arrow and Moggy's a'dam

 

In TFoH54, Moggy and Nyn are fighting in T'A'R. Nyn defeats Moggy by imagining an a'dam on her neck:

 

Nynaeve's hand wavered a span from Moghedien. It had to be close enough. There was only her. And Tel'aran'rhiod. The image formed in her head, and there it was, silver bracelet on her outstretched wrist, silver leash linking it to the silver collar around Moghedien's neck.

 

In LoC Prologue, we have this:

 

On her left wrist Nynaeve wore a slender bracelet, a single segmented silver band. Mainly silver, anyway, and from a special source, though that made no difference... A matchingnecklace was snuggled around the neck of the foourth woman.. Bracelet and necklace created a link between them.

 

The T'A'R a'dam has been replaced by a real-world device.

 

AFAICS we are not told explicitly that the 'special source' is Birgitte's arrow, but there seems to be no other candidate.

[rand4747]

The arrow must have somehow made it out because Birgitte is the archer, the arrow is like a part of her and its so strong that she took it as a part of her when sshe was ejected.

 

As for how something physical could appear at all, I think TAR is a real world with different rules to it and we know physical matter can go in and out of it so why can something created there not, it just might be really difficult keeping its form to be able to pass it out of the world into another. A soul however can hold its own form much stronger and so can make it through. Someone who is dreaming wouldn't be able to gateway out though because they know i guess that its not their real form and so it wont work.

 

Ties in with above Birgitte and the arrow are so tied together it went with her, thats what she is.

[Sephie913]

Or maybe it's completely possible for a Dreamer to enter WW from TAR, her WW body just dies. I'm not sure we've seen one way or another.

 

Also, with inanimate objects, where is it said that it cannot be given TAR mass and substance, and be transported out? Let's say Rand is battling Forsaken, both using fire/air for explosions, etc. Dust from the stones fills the air, smoke coats them. Then they go to WW. Are they suddenly clean, or are they still covered in evidence of their conflict--essence of TAR?

 

With both of these, I don't believe we have concrete proof one way or another, so it's just a fun thing to consider. If anyone knows of proof and feels like providing quotes for or against, I'd much appreciate it.

[A. Pseudonym]

Yeah, that's a point. But it seems to me that things like the arrow created in TAR are ephemeral. They're created by a Dreamer or whatever and last only as long as that Dreamers concentration sustains them.

 

Yet the arrow travelled from TAR into the RW, so it's all up in the air. Not enough information.

[Naggash]

Yeah, that's a point. But it seems to me that things like the arrow created in TAR are ephemeral. They're created by a Dreamer or whatever and last only as long as that Dreamers concentration sustains them.

 

Yet the arrow travelled from TAR into the RW, so it's all up in the air. Not enough information.

You're absolutely right. Anything created in TAR or changed in it (such as walls destroied, columns broken, doors open, etc) can't affect the WW in any way. But as I said, Mog's 'trick' expulsed Birgitte outside TAR and the arrow was with her so it was affected too. If Birgitte can somehow get a body the arrow can get matter.

[Orderofolde]

This is actually a great question, one that hasn't been examined too closely. The books supply us with no explanation of how Moghedien casts Birgitte from Tel'aran'rhiod. That she did so intentionally is quite clear. She wanted to hurt Birgitte, cast her out, probably to die. Little chance that Moghedien thought that Elayne (or anyone) would think of a way to save Birgitte's life. The consequences if she dies there? Maybe she dies the final death. Or maybe, she returns to Tel'aran'rhiod for another turning of the Wheel. Meantime Gaidal Cain is out there in the world and Birgitte isn't.

 

But if anyone believes they know what Moghedien actually did, I'd certainly be interested to read.

I really don't think that Moggy meant to cast her out into the real world, just to hit her with that wall of darkness or whatever she used to try to kill her. It's supposed to not be possible. A lot of what modern AS are doing isn't supposed to have been possible like healing stilling and warder bonds. I mean...if the Forsaken know how to throw Heroes of the Horn out of T'A'R then they could just have been doing it all along taking all these souls, bumping them out and doing their little 13x13 trick on them. That would make one heck of a final battle. It was probably just meant to kill her unless there was some hateful monologue about Birgitte being without her love and suffering, and then of course Moggy would have known she likely would have died rather than lived without aid from the OP. And the silver arrow is probably a weapon that will find its use soon. Maybe Birgitte will kill one of the Forsaken with it. Maybe even Moggy, now wouldn't that just be epic revenge? Sadly a lot is left to our interpretation and misguided understanding until RJ and BS's last work comes out to explain it all leaving us with the oohs and the aahs. We just really won't know for sure until some hint is written.

[Terez]

1. Moghedien did rip her out on purpose. She said so. The intent was to make Birgitte 'weep forever', which would hardly have been accomplished by just ripping her out to die and return to Tel'aran'rhiod, or by killing her permanently, for that matter.

 

2. Moghedien was only able to rip Birgitte out because Birgitte broke the precepts and exposed herself. She could have remained hidden like all the other heroes if she'd wanted to.

 

3. Again, the arrow was made into Moghedien's a'dam. There is no arrow any more.

 

4. Heroes don't have special powers when they're ripped out.

 

5. Some people's interpretations are more misguided than others'.

[Deadsy]

How some of you manage to comprehend any part of the series baffles my mind. If Moghedien had wanted to kill her that moment, she would be dead.

[FanoLan]

How some of you manage to comprehend any part of the series baffles my mind.

 

Thank you for expressing this sentiment; nice to know I'm not the only one.