Gholam

[SparrowHawk]

Speaking of whether it thinks, or just follows orders, I've always wondered how the dreadlords controlled gholam...There must be a "fail-safe" to protect themselves from gholam killing them. Or are they(gholam) just wired to be servants of the shadow? Even with that in mind, many shadowspawn are the best examples of loyal soldiers.

[Naggash]

Speaking of whether it thinks, or just follows orders, I've always wondered how the dreadlords controlled gholam...There must be a "fail-safe" to protect themselves from gholam killing them. Or are they(gholam) just wired to be servants of the shadow? Even with that in mind, many shadowspawn are the best examples of loyal soldiers.

Gholam are creations of Aginor. So imo it's as simple as they are created to obey Chosen and no one else.

[Suttree]

He isn't 'harmed' when he loses his fingers also, but he loses them, he isn't 'water-like' as some suggest nor he is inmune. So I repeat that it really means nothing.

 

How do you know he losses them? They could shortly grow back much like his wounds melded together. He certainly seems to have a viscous quality.

 

Edit: Remembered a Q&A on this.

 

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 2000

 

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

John Miller from Virginia

 

First off thanks for joining us on the chat. To settle a dispute on our mailing list I would like to know if the gholam works the same way as Mat's medallion? Can it be killed by lightning or any such thing?

Robert Jordan

 

Read and find out. The principle is the same, but it doesn't work in the same way as Mat's medallion.

[Naggash]

He isn't 'harmed' when he loses his fingers also, but he loses them, he isn't 'water-like' as some suggest nor he is inmune. So I repeat that it really means nothing.

 

How do you know he losses them? They could shortly grow back much like his wounds melded together. He certainly seems to have a viscous quality.

 

Edit: Remembered a Q&A on this.

 

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 2000

 

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

John Miller from Virginia

 

First off thanks for joining us on the chat. To settle a dispute on our mailing list I would like to know if the gholam works the same way as Mat's medallion? Can it be killed by lightning or any such thing?

Robert Jordan

 

Read and find out. The principle is the same, but it doesn't work in the same way as Mat's medallion.

Nice catch. It will be interesting to find out in aMoL :D

 

Anyone remembers how many of them Semirhage said had been created? I like the idea of one or two of them messing around.

[Apples First]

Well, Birgitte said that six had been created; 3 male and 3 female. I only remember Graendal mentioning the Gholam, not Semirhage.

[yoniy0]

You know, Teslyn did hit the gholam with thrown objects, so that certainly works just as it does with Mat:

The gholam spun as a large bench smashed into it, throwing it backward.

[Sephie913]

speaking of non-direct OP ideas, would it be possible to capture it in a water-tight case, held together by OP so that it couldn't break free?

 

also, I thought I remembered Graendal being scared of the thing. not just disgusted. scared. she thought of the jumarra (sp) and thought that gholam might be more dangerous. Which would suggest that they only haev a measure of control, and that they aren't exactly safe. (though whether that means that another Forsaken might set one on them, or that the gholam might turn at any moment, who's to say?)

[Naggash]

speaking of non-direct OP ideas, would it be possible to capture it in a water-tight case, held together by OP so that it couldn't break free?

 

also, I thought I remembered Graendal being scared of the thing. not just disgusted. scared. she thought of the jumarra (sp) and thought that gholam might be more dangerous. Which would suggest that they only haev a measure of control, and that they aren't exactly safe. (though whether that means that another Forsaken might set one on them, or that the gholam might turn at any moment, who's to say?)

I think they are totally in control.Still, think of it as having a lion as a pet. You can have it tamed and it won't hurt anyone ever. Still it's a lion, and you may be scared just in case.

So happens with the Forsaken. It's their tool but still a tool that could kill them amusingly easily.

 

About OP-indirect things, anything would be possible. You can't touch him with weaves. Anything else would work. That's the reason I don't know why the make a mess with it. Maybe it's as simple as the characters don't having the idea, or it could be a flaw in the books. We have a RAFO so we'll see.

[SparrowHawk]

Forsaken have their own forces of trollocs, and it seems like they could be sent to attack other forsaken. The same seems to be true of gholam. Maybe I'm just pulling at straws. Does anyone know of an instance where a Forsaken was in danger by another's shadowspawn? Grey men, Dragkhar, or trollocs?

[Naggash]

Forsaken have their own forces of trollocs, and it seems like they could be sent to attack other forsaken. The same seems to be true of gholam. Maybe I'm just pulling at straws. Does anyone know of an instance where a Forsaken was in danger by another's shadowspawn? Grey men, Dragkhar, or trollocs?

You may have a point there. I suspected for a time that the Forsaken founding the Gholam could send it against another Forsaken. But then I changed my mind; I don't think Shadowspawns can be used by the Chosen to fight among themselves. I think it must be forbiden by the DO to waste troops like that. Also, through the books they fight in a more subtle manner. Alliances and treason.

[Suttree]

I know they can be controlled but recall that the Gholam understands and seems to yearn for freedom. In addition we have this...

 

 

Interview: Jun 27th, 1996

 

AOL Chat 1 (Verbatim)

StuuuuBush

 

Was Mat right about the "snakelike" guy being a gholam, and if so, are we to assume that the bad guys are going to have as much trouble stopping one as the good guys?

Robert Jordan

 

I guess he was right. Because after all, his source for the information was Birgitte, who has some memories of the War of the Power. And yes, if a gholam decided to turn against one of the Forsaken, the Forsaken would certainly have as much difficulty in stopping the attack as any other person would. They were, after all, created for the sole purpose of assassinating Aes Sedai.

[SparrowHawk]

I think it must be forbiden by the DO to waste troops like that.

 

I dunno, the DO seems to encourage the idea of Forsaken killing eachother in their ambition for power.

 

Suttree, looks like you hit the nail on the head.

[yoniy0]

It's a little more than its deciding to do so. The Forsaken are marked by the DO, and every Shadowspawn automatically obeys that authority. Now, if the DO was to withdraw that protection...

[Naggash]

I know they can be controlled but recall that the Gholam understands and seems to yearn for freedom. In addition we have this...

 

 

Interview: Jun 27th, 1996

 

AOL Chat 1 (Verbatim)

StuuuuBush

 

Was Mat right about the "snakelike" guy being a gholam, and if so, are we to assume that the bad guys are going to have as much trouble stopping one as the good guys?

Robert Jordan

 

I guess he was right. Because after all, his source for the information was Birgitte, who has some memories of the War of the Power. And yes, if a gholam decided to turn against one of the Forsaken, the Forsaken would certainly have as much difficulty in stopping the attack as any other person would. They were, after all, created for the sole purpose of assassinating Aes Sedai.

That certainly confuses me. Could it be just idle speculation? No real danger, just talking about what would happen. I don't know but I don't think they can turn against the Chosen. It's like with Slayer; he knows himself unique and he is quite arrogant, but still he obeys the Chosen.

The passage you're talking about here 'but recall that the Gholam understands and seems to yearn for freedom' seems to me as further prove that they are bound to obey. If he were free he wouldn't yearn for freedom.

 

I think it must be forbiden by the DO to waste troops like that.

 

I dunno, the DO seems to encourage the idea of Forsaken killing eachother in their ambition for power.

 

Suttree, looks like you hit the nail on the head.

The DO encourages the Chosen to fight among themselves, true, but allowing his resources to be wasted in such a manner is completely different.

 

It's a little more than its deciding to do so. The Forsaken are marked by the DO, and every Shadowspawn automatically obeys that authority. Now, if the DO was to withdraw that protection...

And yoniy0 is right in my opinion, that's why Shadowspawn can't be used to fight other Chosen.

[Plato]

I might be a little late, but I don't think of the Gholam as having a weakness in any one part of his body. I think of him more like one big living entity, like an amoeba. His entire body is the brain/the blood/the conscousness. He can suck your blood through any part of his body, he can bend his body into the shape of anything to fit inside anything... cutting off his head wouldn't kill him, the same way cutting an amoeba in half wouldn't kill it.

 

I am curious about the ignition of the air around him tho...

[TristanWebb]

Igniting the air would just unravel where it touched him. Bonds of air thicken the air until it holds a person, but that doesn't work. Just using a different element wouldn't change that. If you could cut off its head it wouldn't be able to see at the very least, so it would be a good start on killing it.

 

EDIT: I thought about it and come to the conclusion that the question that should be asked is: can the gholam walk through the shield the asha'man made a dumai's wells. If the answer is yes, then anything that requires channelling to maintain wouldn't work on it, if no then a lot of suggestions made here could happen.

[Plato]

Well then it sounds like, along with being immune to the one power, he is also immune to temperature and pressure changes...

(and to be perfectly honest, he sounds MORE like a plot device)

[yoniy0]

Of course he's that. What other reason would there be to send one after Mat while at the same time sending Ashaman and trollocs after Rand?

[Suttree]

The passage you're talking about here 'but recall that the Gholam understands and seems to yearn for freedom' seems to me as further prove that they are bound to obey. If he were free he wouldn't yearn for freedom.

 

Perhaps yearned wasn't the right word...

 

tPoD

The women had been named, too, and for the time being, it was constrained. For its entire existence it had been compelled to obey one or another human, but its mind held the concept of not being constrained.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, whether or not the Gholam's head can be cut off, I don't know, but would you try it, if you were Mat?

 

The thing is incredibly fast and deadly, it can squeeze through cracks in walls, Mat knows of nothing that can hurt it except the medallion. Why would he risk it?

 

Also, Graendal was attacked by a Gholam in the War of Power.

 

LoC 23: To understand a message

 

She (Graendal) had had an unpleasant, in fact almost fatal, encounter with one of Aginor's creations. The man was brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have made the gholam.

 

IT seems it can attack one of the Chosen, possibly other shadowspawn can as well.

[FarShainMael]

I'm puzzled.. why bother to make gholams of both sexes?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm puzzled.. why bother to make gholams of both sexes?

 

A bit of fun?

 

But seriously, I would say that Aginor was just experimenting. He made a gholam (of whichever sex he created first) and, because he is a scientist, he wanted to see if he could do the opposite sex.

 

On a practical level, both male and female assassins would most likely have been needed. It may be that a male or female could go where the other sex could not. As a result, assassinating someone in say, a place like the White Tower (I know it didn't exist, just an example of 1 sex institution) a female assassin would occasion less comment and suspicion.

[Mr Ares]

The medallion was the only thing it had ever encountered that could hurt it. What makes you think fire or decaptition would do anything more than warm it up or leave it with no use for a hat?

Well, without head he doesn't have brain, so he dies or at least loses rationality; or at the very least he can't see, though I think he just can't live without head. And I'm talking about a very strong fire, created by Elayne, Avi, Nyn, Joline ¿? or other above-average channelers. If you turn it to ashes he can hardly be alive. And if you don't like the fire thing for any reason, then what about the lightning? He gets hit by one, shruggs and keeps killing? I don't think so, a lighting could turn it to ash too, or just tear him apart, and it wouldn't need to be a strong lightning. Also fireballs would work to blast an arm, a leg or the head, and it would hit him. Things thrown aren't affected.

It doesn't follow that without a head it doesn't have a brain. Nor even that depriving it of eyes will stop it seeing. Myrddraal have no eyes but still see. We don't know what damage would be caused by lopping off a gholam's head, other than it being a head shorter. (That's not the way to get a head in life.) It might survive, it might grow the head back, or be able to reattach its head. As for a very strong fire, it doesn't matter how strong your fire is. We don't know if fire will do anything more than warm it up. We have no idea what temperatures it can survive. The only thing it had ever encountered that could hurt it was the medallion. Now, it might be that it had always had an easy job in the past, with everyone trying weaves of Air and dying before they could put plan B into effect. But it could just as easily have been hit by fire, lightning, swords, and anything else and just shrugged it off.

[Naggash]

24h partying and lots of posts!!! I like it :D

Well, seems like beheading it is out of the question. I specifically liked the 'amoeba' argument.

As for channeling, I still think you are wrong when you say that the fire or whatever you use against it would unravel. Through the series we see that although the Power 'creates' that fire, lightning, etc this elements are 'real' the moment they're woven. It's not just weaves, it's real fire. It wouldn't unravel (aire aflame around it, lightning striking it, water surrounding him, etc).

You made a point, though, with his natural resistance to this elements. He may be fire-resistant, he may needn't breath and maybe if you tear him appart he just goes 'amoeba' and reunite his parts or grow them new.

Since we don't have a better explanation about Gholam powers and abilities, I'll give up on this one :P So yeah, maybe he is just an inmortal kickass as long as he has plenty of blood to drink xD

But it really bothers me that on the books they didn't even try. Cutting his head off is dangeorus but it wouldn't have killed the AS to try heating him up a little don't you think? >,<

I hope that RAFO is real and we learn more about them in aMoL.

[Agitel]

We don't know what damage would be caused by lopping off a gholam's head, other than it being a head shorter. (That's not the way to get a head in life.)