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Gholam


Naggash
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Ok, so, there's something about the Gholam that has been friking me out since I first read the books.

 

1) Why the hell wouldn't they cut his head off. He would die that way wouldn't he? I know normal people isn't skilled enough to face it, but what about Mat himself? Couldn't he just chop his head off with the Ashandarei?

 

2) Why not bloody burn him? He unravels whatever touches him, but what about just igniting the aire surrounding him or throwing a blast of fire or creating a column of fire under him. And I say fire because I like the idea of him burning to ashes, but a lightning bolt thrown to him would do, or much more things. So...why not?

 

Thaaaanks.

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1) mat couldn't hit him

He pretty much did nothing but hit him all the time, with the medalion which has shorter range than the Ashandarei or with the medalion-Ashandarei.

I suppose he could be scared of getting near enough to cut his head, but I don't think so. We're talking about Mat. And again, the medalion has shorter range than the Ashandarei and he fought with it, so scared of getting close?

Edited by Naggash
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Fire is created by weaves of fire so cannot touch him. And cutting someones head off who can got through a camp of soldiers, rip heads off with ease, and move like grease lightening is easier said than done.

That's a common mistake. The waves create the fire but the fire is not made of OP. Ravhin kills Mat with a lightning.

And if Mat could fight him with the disadvantage that he had to hit with the side of the Ashandarei (medalion) I think there wouldn't be much different to just cut him.

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Besides, they don't even know that beheading would have really hurt the gholam. Maybe he would have gotten close enough to behead him, only to find that the gholam functions fine with his head on the floor. Then you get your throat ripped out, the gholam feeds, and it heals back to normal, whereas your throat is permanently ripped out.

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Fire is created by weaves of fire so cannot touch him. And cutting someones head off who can got through a camp of soldiers, rip heads off with ease, and move like grease lightening is easier said than done.

That's a common mistake. The waves create the fire but the fire is not made of OP. Ravhin kills Mat with a lightning.

And if Mat could fight him with the disadvantage that he had to hit with the side of the Ashandarei (medalion) I think there wouldn't be much different to just cut him.

Fires have to have something to burn. You can light a campfire with a weave, but if you want to make a fire burn in the air you have to power it with something and that something is the Power. If you locked him in a burning building it might or might not work, fire was never shown to touch the gholam, so it is impossible to say if it would hurt him or not.

 

Also, there is no evidence that you could actually cut it. Knives stuck in him sure, but no blood was seen, it could be just like the T-1000, essentially liquid that would just part and reform around whatever is trying to cut it.

 

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the Gholam may have lost fingers during his last fight? If that is right, cutting off the head might work.

Edited by BenevolentCow
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Fire is created by weaves of fire so cannot touch him. And cutting someones head off who can got through a camp of soldiers, rip heads off with ease, and move like grease lightening is easier said than done.

That's a common mistake. The waves create the fire but the fire is not made of OP. Ravhin kills Mat with a lightning.

And if Mat could fight him with the disadvantage that he had to hit with the side of the Ashandarei (medalion) I think there wouldn't be much different to just cut him.

Fires have to have something to burn. You can light a campfire with a weave, but if you want to make a fire burn in the air you have to power it with something and that something is the Power. If you locked him in a burning building it might or might not work, fire was never shown to touch the gholam, so it is impossible to say if it would hurt him or not.

 

Also, there is no evidence that you could actually cut it. Knives stuck in him sure, but no blood was seen, it could be just like the T-1000, essentially liquid that would just part and reform around whatever is trying to cut it.

 

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the Gholam may have lost fingers during his last fight? If that is right, cutting off the head might work.

Yes, he loses fingers, that's what led me into this headache.

You may have a point with the fire but still I think that I'm right. For example, when Rand, Egwene and Avi consume the top of the hills in fire. Or when Elza ignites the place where Osan'gar is. I think that kind of wave creates the fire in the place but then the fire mantains on its own. I don't have evidence, it's just a 'feeling' I get; maybe something I've read but I can't remember that suggests it. I don't really know, but for me it seems right that way.

 

And, FarShainMael you got +1 there. I didn't even think of that but is another possibility. I think the Gholam may be one of the few flaws in the books.

 

EDIT: I got it!!!! :D

it's just a 'feeling' I get; maybe something I've read but I can't remember that suggests it. I don't really know, but for me it seems right that way.

It's said in the books that weaves created outside the Guardians (FM ter'angreals) will still hold inside the 'bubble', or affect or however you want to say it. And Mat's ter'angreal is said to act the same way. If you touch it with weaves they will unravel but if you create something with weaves then throw it, it will affect him. And the Gholam acts the same way as Mat's ter'angreal.

Edited by Naggash
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Fire is created by weaves of fire so cannot touch him. And cutting someones head off who can got through a camp of soldiers, rip heads off with ease, and move like grease lightening is easier said than done.

That's a common mistake. The waves create the fire but the fire is not made of OP. Ravhin kills Mat with a lightning.

And if Mat could fight him with the disadvantage that he had to hit with the side of the Ashandarei (medalion) I think there wouldn't be much different to just cut him.

 

I dont understand your point about Ravhin killing Mat. If you are refairing to Mat' amulet there's no evidence to suggest it works against male channellers.

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Fire is created by weaves of fire so cannot touch him. And cutting someones head off who can got through a camp of soldiers, rip heads off with ease, and move like grease lightening is easier said than done.

That's a common mistake. The waves create the fire but the fire is not made of OP. Ravhin kills Mat with a lightning.

And if Mat could fight him with the disadvantage that he had to hit with the side of the Ashandarei (medalion) I think there wouldn't be much different to just cut him.

 

I dont understand your point about Ravhin killing Mat. If you are refairing to Mat' amulet there's no evidence to suggest it works against male channellers.

 

That has been debated certainly but Mat was killed by a lighting bolt, not a direct weave.

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Re using plain ordinary natural fire..

 

I didn't even think of that but is another possibility. I think the Gholam may be one of the few flaws in the books.

 

Not necessarily. It may not occur to channellers either, who are so used to doing things with the OP that they don't think about other ways.

 

@damandred: didn't Mat's foxhead detect Aran'gar/Halima's channelling saidin? I'll see if I can find the ref.

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Re using plain ordinary natural fire..

 

I didn't even think of that but is another possibility. I think the Gholam may be one of the few flaws in the books.

 

Not necessarily. It may not occur to channellers either, who are so used to doing things with the OP that they don't think about other ways.

 

@damandred: didn't Mat's foxhead detect Aran'gar/Halima's channelling saidin? I'll see if I can find the ref.

 

It should have been nothing, but before he had gone ten paces the fox head went icy cold on his chest. He spun around, looking furiously for anything at all. What he saw was Halima staring at him in the firelight. Only for an instant before she seized a tall Warder’s arm and whirled back into the dance, but he was sure he had seen shock on that beautiful face.

 

-LoC

 

You're abosolutely right.

 

 

 

Anyway, burning the Gholam doesn't require the weaves to touch him exactly. You could heat the air strongly around him so that he would spontaneously combust or whatever (like in a furnace).

 

Regarding cutting the Gholam's head off; well, if he can squeeze through walls, then he should find some way to avoid an opponent's blade, such as through bending his body underneath or around a blade.

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The medallion was the only thing it had ever encountered that could hurt it. What makes you think fire or decaptition would do anything more than warm it up or leave it with no use for a hat?

Well, without head he doesn't have brain, so he dies or at least loses rationality; or at the very least he can't see, though I think he just can't live without head. And I'm talking about a very strong fire, created by Elayne, Avi, Nyn, Joline ¿? or other above-average channelers. If you turn it to ashes he can hardly be alive. And if you don't like the fire thing for any reason, then what about the lightning? He gets hit by one, shruggs and keeps killing? I don't think so, a lighting could turn it to ash too, or just tear him apart, and it wouldn't need to be a strong lightning. Also fireballs would work to blast an arm, a leg or the head, and it would hit him. Things thrown aren't affected.

 

Gholam acts the same way as Mat's ter'angreal.

 

What makes you say that?

It's somewhere in the books I think, though I'm not sure. Even if it isn't exactly the same, he unravel whatever wave that touches him. They never tried to thow something to him and there isn't reason to think it wouldn't work like with the medallion.

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Anyway, burning the Gholam doesn't require the weaves to touch him exactly. You could heat the air strongly around him so that he would spontaneously combust or whatever (like in a furnace).

Exactly.

 

Regarding cutting the Gholam's head off; well, if he can squeeze through walls, then he should find some way to avoid an opponent's blade, such as through bending his body underneath or around a blade.

Fair enough. But still, even if not practicable, would it be possible? And still, Mat hit him with the medallion don't forget that, so he must have his limits regarding the 'liquid flowness' or however you call it.

Edited by Naggash
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He might not even have a brain in the first place. Does he bleed when he loses fingers in that fight? If he doesnt, that pretty much means he doesnt have blood. If it doesnt have blood, then why should it have a brain?

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He might not even have a brain in the first place. Does he bleed when he loses fingers in that fight? If he doesnt, that pretty much means he doesnt have blood. If it doesnt have blood, then why should it have a brain?

He doesn't have blood, but what does that have to do with having brain or not? I mean, it's not like Gholams are creations of the DO himself. They are the creation of a man,the creation of Aginor. They aren't any supernatural beings (WoT PoV). It's a construct that lacks blood, bones and has a ter'angreal propertie. Very much like Fades can 'bend' like snakes too (I know, I know, Fades is more normal but it's just an example) and have the power to travel though shadows. And still there's a limit to what a man can create. How can you make a being think without mind? Fades also die if you cut their head, and to kill them with normal wounds it takes 15-man worth wounds.

Edited by Naggash
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Does it think, or just follow orders?

 

It thinks...

 

tPoD Ch. 2

Its nostrils flared again, though it was not by scent that it tracked those who could channel. The One Power had been used below, and miles to the north. To follow, or not? The man who had wounded it was not with them; it had made sure of that before leaving the high vantage place. The one who commanded it wanted the man who had wounded it dead perhaps as much as he did the women, but the women were an easier target. The women had been named, too, and for the time being, it was constrained. For its entire existence it had been compelled to obey one or another human, but its mind held the concept of not being constrained. It must follow the women. It wanted to follow. The moment of death, when it felt the ability to channel vanish along with life, produced ecstasy. Rapture. But it was hungry, too, and there was time. Where they could run, it could follow. Settling fluidly beside the mangled body, it began to feed. Fresh blood, hot blood, was a necessity, but human blood always held the sweetest savor.

 

As for those thinking fire or decapitation can hurt it...

 

tPoD Ch. 2

The gholamappeared to be merely a slender man, a little taller than average in this time, yet it had never encountered anything that could harm it.

 

This thing fought during the War of Power. It it was that easy it wouldn't have been so feared. In addition Nargash why are you assuming the thing burns?

 

It's somewhere in the books I think, though I'm not sure. Even if it isn't exactly the same, he unravel whatever wave that touches him. They never tried to thow something to him and there isn't reason to think it wouldn't work like with the medallion.

 

Almost positive it is not in the books. In terms of the second sentence that is a logical fallacy.

Edited by Suttree
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As for those thinking fire or decapitation can hurt it...

 

tPoD Ch. 2

The gholamappeared to be merely a slender man, a little taller than average in this time, yet it had never encountered anything that could harm it.

 

 

Lol, evidently he's never fallen into a volcano or maybe he's just suffering from memory loss after being cooped up in a stasis box for all that time.

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Does it think, or just follow orders?

 

It thinks...

 

tPoD Ch. 2

Its nostrils flared again, though it was not by scent that it tracked those who could channel. The One Power had been used below, and miles to the north. To follow, or not? The man who had wounded it was not with them; it had made sure of that before leaving the high vantage place. The one who commanded it wanted the man who had wounded it dead perhaps as much as he did the women, but the women were an easier target. The women had been named, too, and for the time being, it was constrained. For its entire existence it had been compelled to obey one or another human, but its mind held the concept of not being constrained. It must follow the women. It wanted to follow. The moment of death, when it felt the ability to channel vanish along with life, produced ecstasy. Rapture. But it was hungry, too, and there was time. Where they could run, it could follow. Settling fluidly beside the mangled body, it began to feed. Fresh blood, hot blood, was a necessity, but human blood always held the sweetest savor.

 

As for those thinking fire or decapitation can hurt it...

 

tPoD Ch. 2

The gholamappeared to be merely a slender man, a little taller than average in this time, yet it had never encountered anything that could harm it.

 

This thing fought during the War of Power. It it was that easy it wouldn't have been so feared.

 

It's somewhere in the books I think, though I'm not sure. Even if it isn't exactly the same, he unravel whatever wave that touches him. They never tried to thow something to him and there isn't reason to think it wouldn't work like with the medallion.

 

Almost positive it is not in the books. In terms of the second sentence that is a logical fallacy.

 

He is not a fighter. He is an assasin. First reaction is probably to catch him with air waves and then oh you're dead. So that isn't prove that he can't be killed by those means. Also, please note that 'harm' has very little to do with killing. He isn't 'harmed' when he loses his fingers also, but he loses them, he isn't 'water-like' as some suggest nor he is inmune. So I repeat that it really means nothing.

 

And logical fallacy? In the books it's said that the weaves unravel when touching him. There's no further knowledge on the matter so the most logical think is to stick to what the books tell us. Weaves unravel when touching him, and nothing more. I also think it's mentioned that Elayne thinks it's like with Mat's medallion, I'll try and find the quote later tonight if I can.

Edited by Naggash
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