Economic Stagnation?

[Vardar]

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

 

But you can lift yourself with the TP.Also you can lift others, and if Skyhooks are needed, in theory you should be able to anchor the weave of air to the ground correct? I mean, what are you anchoring it to when you lift others up? It's not as if you directly absorb the weight like a lever or anything.

[XoMeltdownoX]

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

 

But you can lift yourself with the TP.Also you can lift others, and if Skyhooks are needed, in theory you should be able to anchor the weave of air to the ground correct? I mean, what are you anchoring it to when you lift others up? It's not as if you directly absorb the weight like a lever or anything.

How can a person lift them self with the TP? Please explain?

[Thrasymachus]

The short answer is: No, basic physics as we understand it could not be operation in a world that had the One Power. For one thing, it violates the hell out of conservation of mass/energy. And the entire concept of their cosmology spits in the eye of Entropy, let alone the individual applications of the One Power, which all do too. And because basic physics could not be operative, neither could our understandings of things like climate, biology, geology, chemistry, economics, or sociology. They all build off of the assumed truth of physics. But that's magic for you.

 

And I'm in agreement with Agitel. The population could not have been in decline since the Breaking, given the devastation of the Trolloc Wars and the Hundred Years War. The unnatural decline in populations/economies must be a relatively recent phenomenon, if one even accepts it as truth. Jordan's comments notwithstanding, the character's observations of a civilization in decline reeks of anecdote and lack of perspective. I'm not sure I even buy a "population in decline" narrative prior to the Aiel War. I could buy a civilization in decline narrative, where that means that over the course of the Third Age, average productivity declined, even though overall production increased or remained the same, as technologies and knowledge were lost, but not if that meant that populations tended to decline over the course of the Third Age.

[Maleshub]

I think that if we go back; we'll find that most farming communities had a majority of households that had multiple children. In any case, taking the discussion down that route will have me running around in circles. And I don't think I can take notice of household statistics in my current reread! The facts are there: Randland population has been in decline since the Breaking.

 

I don't think the bolded is entirely accurate, at least not in the way I think you mean it. The Breaking, the Trolloc Wars, and the War of the Hundred Years/Seanchan conquest/Shara invasion all took many lives of those living. But the unnatural downward pressure on population growth seems to have only started within the last millenia of the story, and perhaps even the last few centuries, as the DO's ability to touch the world has increased.

 

Not my quote. I think someone quoted RJ saying something similar earlier in the thread. I don't remember who it was .... Mr. Ares or Luckers, maybe. And so, I've taken that RJ quote as fact. If he says the population has been in decline; then who am I to argue that it hasn't been?!

[jwood01]

There seems to be a decline over the whole continent, with vast tracts being sparsely populated or uninhibited. However, the major cities seem to be filled to capacity.

[Mr Ares]

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

 

But you can lift yourself with the TP.Also you can lift others, and if Skyhooks are needed, in theory you should be able to anchor the weave of air to the ground correct? I mean, what are you anchoring it to when you lift others up? It's not as if you directly absorb the weight like a lever or anything.

You can lift yourself with the OP, the TP and your own arms. The principle remains the same in all cases. What is holding you up? If the answer is nothing, then you'll either come crashing down to the ground, or simply not leave it in the first place. Also, skyhooks was facetiousness, not a serious comment.

 

I think that if we go back; we'll find that most farming communities had a majority of households that had multiple children. In any case, taking the discussion down that route will have me running around in circles. And I don't think I can take notice of household statistics in my current reread! The facts are there: Randland population has been in decline since the Breaking.

 

I don't think the bolded is entirely accurate, at least not in the way I think you mean it. The Breaking, the Trolloc Wars, and the War of the Hundred Years/Seanchan conquest/Shara invasion all took many lives of those living. But the unnatural downward pressure on population growth seems to have only started within the last millenia of the story, and perhaps even the last few centuries, as the DO's ability to touch the world has increased.

 

Not my quote. I think someone quoted RJ saying something similar earlier in the thread. I don't remember who it was .... Mr. Ares or Luckers, maybe. And so, I've taken that RJ quote as fact. If he says the population has been in decline; then who am I to argue that it hasn't been?!

The quote provided earlier (from Suttree) said this: "After Hawkwing's death, however, the population began a gradual decrease that the chaos of the War of the Hundred Years alone does not account for. Toward the end of the war rulers were claiming lands they lacked the manpower to hold. This decline has continued until the present, and there are now vast tracts of unpopulated land unclaimed by any nation, as well as areas that, though claimed in theory, are in practice autonomous and beyond the scope of their "official" ruler to defend or control.

[Maleshub]

I think that if we go back; we'll find that most farming communities had a majority of households that had multiple children. In any case, taking the discussion down that route will have me running around in circles. And I don't think I can take notice of household statistics in my current reread! The facts are there: Randland population has been in decline since the Breaking.

 

I don't think the bolded is entirely accurate, at least not in the way I think you mean it. The Breaking, the Trolloc Wars, and the War of the Hundred Years/Seanchan conquest/Shara invasion all took many lives of those living. But the unnatural downward pressure on population growth seems to have only started within the last millenia of the story, and perhaps even the last few centuries, as the DO's ability to touch the world has increased.

 

Not my quote. I think someone quoted RJ saying something similar earlier in the thread. I don't remember who it was .... Mr. Ares or Luckers, maybe. And so, I've taken that RJ quote as fact. If he says the population has been in decline; then who am I to argue that it hasn't been?!

The quote provided earlier (from Suttree) said this: "After Hawkwing's death, however, the population began a gradual decrease that the chaos of the War of the Hundred Years alone does not account for. Toward the end of the war rulers were claiming lands they lacked the manpower to hold. This decline has continued until the present, and there are now vast tracts of unpopulated land unclaimed by any nation, as well as areas that, though claimed in theory, are in practice autonomous and beyond the scope of their "official" ruler to defend or control.

 

So, the decline started after the War of the Hundred Years. That means that Randland's population could have increased (relatively) considerably in the 1700 years between the end of the Breaking and the Wo100Years. Because if the Trolloc Wars were as devastating as the Great Plague (killing off 1\3 of the population), the population would still grow. Interesting!

[Vardar]

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

 

But you can lift yourself with the TP.Also you can lift others, and if Skyhooks are needed, in theory you should be able to anchor the weave of air to the ground correct? I mean, what are you anchoring it to when you lift others up? It's not as if you directly absorb the weight like a lever or anything.

How can a person lift them self with the TP? Please explain?

 

It's been done in the books, not quite sure how. I'm assuming you lift yourself with flows of air, hence my issue with why it would be impossible to do it with the OP.

 

But then again we're debating the rules of physics and applying them and the issues right? So, in both cases we have an unknown power source, that's fine, assuming them operate on the same principals, it should be possible to do it with the OP and TP, unless there's an underlying issue. Why the characters say it's not possible to lift yourself with the OP, they've never really explained it. I'm quite curious myself as it makes no sense.

 

You can lift yourself with the OP, the TP and your own arms. The principle remains the same in all cases. What is holding you up? If the answer is nothing, then you'll either come crashing down to the ground, or simply not leave it in the first place. Also, skyhooks was facetiousness, not a serious comment.

 

Air&Magic.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. It is possible with the TP. They claim it's not possible with the OP. We're debating physics and the application of it in this world still correct?

[Mr Ares]

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

 

But you can lift yourself with the TP.Also you can lift others, and if Skyhooks are needed, in theory you should be able to anchor the weave of air to the ground correct? I mean, what are you anchoring it to when you lift others up? It's not as if you directly absorb the weight like a lever or anything.

How can a person lift them self with the TP? Please explain?

 

It's been done in the books, not quite sure how. I'm assuming you lift yourself with flows of air, hence my issue with why it would be impossible to do it with the OP.

 

But then again we're debating the rules of physics and applying them and the issues right? So, in both cases we have an unknown power source, that's fine, assuming them operate on the same principals, it should be possible to do it with the OP and TP, unless there's an underlying issue. Why the characters say it's not possible to lift yourself with the OP, they've never really explained it. I'm quite curious myself as it makes no sense.

 

You can lift yourself with the OP, the TP and your own arms. The principle remains the same in all cases. What is holding you up? If the answer is nothing, then you'll either come crashing down to the ground, or simply not leave it in the first place. Also, skyhooks was facetiousness, not a serious comment.

Air&Magic.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. It is possible with the TP. They claim it's not possible with the OP. We're debating physics and the application of it in this world still correct?

You cannot stand in mid air. You can hold yourself off the ground, but there needs to be something holding you off the ground. That something could be a flow of the OP, a flow of the TP, or it could be a rope. You cannot hold yourself unsupported in mid air with the OP in the same way you cannot pick yourself up by your bootstraps. You cannot hold yourself with the TP in the exact same way. Gravity does not stop working. You could push off the ground with a flow of Air (OP or TP), and thus be connected to the ground by Air. Or use Air to tie yourself to something, such as a tree branch. But unless there is something holding you up, gravity will draw you down. Don't think of the OP (or the TP) as magic, as in this instance that won't help. If you think of it as a tool, or maybe even an extension of your own body, that might help. If the answer to what is holding you up is magic, you will fall. You can make a bridge and use that to hold you off the ground, but bridges need to be connected to something. You can dangle, from your arms or a rope, but you aren't flying. Making bridges or ropes of Air, using the OP as another arm, these things are possible, in the same ways and for the same reasons as these things work without the OP, or the TP. The principle is the same throughout. It is not possible to use either OP or TP to magically float, to pick yourself up by your bootstraps. It is possible to lift yourself off the ground with both in the same way as you could without the use of either. When they say it's impossible, I don't think you really understand what they are claiming is impossible.

[Vardar]

You cannot stand in mid air. You can hold yourself off the ground, but there needs to be something holding you off the ground. That something could be a flow of the OP, a flow of the TP, or it could be a rope. You cannot hold yourself unsupported in mid air with the OP in the same way you cannot pick yourself up by your bootstraps. You cannot hold yourself with the TP in the exact same way. Gravity does not stop working. You could push off the ground with a flow of Air (OP or TP), and thus be connected to the ground by Air. Or use Air to tie yourself to something, such as a tree branch. But unless there is something holding you up, gravity will draw you down. Don't think of the OP (or the TP) as magic, as in this instance that won't help. If you think of it as a tool, or maybe even an extension of your own body, that might help. If the answer to what is holding you up is magic, you will fall. You can make a bridge and use that to hold you off the ground, but bridges need to be connected to something. You can dangle, from your arms or a rope, but you aren't flying. Making bridges or ropes of Air, using the OP as another arm, these things are possible, in the same ways and for the same reasons as these things work without the OP, or the TP. The principle is the same throughout. It is not possible to use either OP or TP to magically float, to pick yourself up by your bootstraps. It is possible to lift yourself off the ground with both in the same way as you could without the use of either. When they say it's impossible, I don't think you really understand what they are claiming is impossible.

 

Again, it's been noted that it's possible with the TP in the books. Book 1 and 3 I believe.

[XoMeltdownoX]

You cannot stand in mid air. You can hold yourself off the ground, but there needs to be something holding you off the ground. That something could be a flow of the OP, a flow of the TP, or it could be a rope. You cannot hold yourself unsupported in mid air with the OP in the same way you cannot pick yourself up by your bootstraps. You cannot hold yourself with the TP in the exact same way. Gravity does not stop working. You could push off the ground with a flow of Air (OP or TP), and thus be connected to the ground by Air. Or use Air to tie yourself to something, such as a tree branch. But unless there is something holding you up, gravity will draw you down. Don't think of the OP (or the TP) as magic, as in this instance that won't help. If you think of it as a tool, or maybe even an extension of your own body, that might help. If the answer to what is holding you up is magic, you will fall. You can make a bridge and use that to hold you off the ground, but bridges need to be connected to something. You can dangle, from your arms or a rope, but you aren't flying. Making bridges or ropes of Air, using the OP as another arm, these things are possible, in the same ways and for the same reasons as these things work without the OP, or the TP. The principle is the same throughout. It is not possible to use either OP or TP to magically float, to pick yourself up by your bootstraps. It is possible to lift yourself off the ground with both in the same way as you could without the use of either. When they say it's impossible, I don't think you really understand what they are claiming is impossible.

 

Again, it's been noted that it's possible with the TP in the books. Book 1 and 3 I believe.

Book 1 and 3. I do not remember coming across that. Can you provide quotes?

 

As far as I know, people can not levitate or fly with either the OP or TP. That is what I mean by lifting yourself. Mr Ares points out that one can be supported by the channeling, like standing on a bridge of Air, but levitation is out.

 

Edit: I could see how one could use a blast of Air to thrust yourself off the ground or away from a solid wall, but it it only be a short burst.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Xo Meltdown oX

[Vardar]

Book 1 and 3. I do not remember coming across that. Can you provide quotes?

 

As far as I know, people can not levitate or fly with either the OP or TP. That is what I mean by lifting yourself. Mr Ares points out that one can be supported by the channeling, like standing on a bridge of Air, but levitation is out.

 

Edit: I could see how one could use a blast of Air to thrust yourself off the ground or away from a solid wall, but it it only be a short burst.

 

It's on the WoT Wiki. TP Article. A forsaken floated in the air at the end of book one, when Moraine blasted the ground beneath him, (Was it Balth?)

And when Rand took the stone of tear, Ishamael floated there. I'm just assuming Balth used the TP because we've heard that you can't lift yourself with the OP, thus it had to be TP or else a mistake.

 

Sorry it was Aginor:

 

"The Aes Sedai's hand rose, and the ground fell away beneath Agirnor's feet. Flame roared from the chasm, whipped ot a frenzy by wind howling in from every direction, sucking a maelstrom of leaves into the fire, which seemed to solidify into a red-streaked yellow jelly of pure heat. In the middle of it Agrinor stood, his feet supported only by air"

[shortkut]

Or moiraine did that to try to keep him trapped. The flames seem more like a cage, and keeping his feet off the ground stops him from walking/running away

[XoMeltdownoX]

Book 1 and 3. I do not remember coming across that. Can you provide quotes?

 

As far as I know, people can not levitate or fly with either the OP or TP. That is what I mean by lifting yourself. Mr Ares points out that one can be supported by the channeling, like standing on a bridge of Air, but levitation is out.

 

Edit: I could see how one could use a blast of Air to thrust yourself off the ground or away from a solid wall, but it it only be a short burst.

 

It's on the WoT Wiki. TP Article. A forsaken floated in the air at the end of book one, when Moraine blasted the ground beneath him, (Was it Balth?)

And when Rand took the stone of tear, Ishamael floated there. I'm just assuming Balth used the TP because we've heard that you can't lift yourself with the OP, thus it had to be TP or else a mistake.

 

Sorry it was Aginor:

 

"The Aes Sedai's hand rose, and the ground fell away beneath Agirnor's feet. Flame roared from the chasm, whipped ot a frenzy by wind howling in from every direction, sucking a maelstrom of leaves into the fire, which seemed to solidify into a red-streaked yellow jelly of pure heat. In the middle of it Agrinor stood, his feet supported only by air"

Thank you. In the EotW scene it sounds like Moir is holding with Air (as Shortkut says). We are not really sure Aginor is using the TP even if he is levitating. In that case it sounds like an early bookism.

 

I had forgotten about Ishy floating in TDR. I must re-read that scene. Not sure how to reconcile that.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Xo Meltdown oX

[jsbrads]

Kael Pyralis:there are so manyancient societies just a few thousand years ago that we know so little about. imagine if a breaking had occured...

 

Theodril: 2.2 to grow... randland should need less (post trolloc wars) safer environment, less conflict, better medicine... of course there may have been quiet a bit of recovery post breaking to trolloc wars

 

Gudd: as high as the population is in the cities, those populations still eat and so the farming communities must still exist

 

everbody: in the books, the characters do say, one can't fly because it is impossible to pick onesself up by their own boot straps. The second half of this statement is true, but the first half is not. to fly one does not pick themselves up, but push down on the air around them, airplane wings are large enough to push down on a sufficient amount of air (for those who understand lift better, know it is about pressure) but it is even easier to see by a helicopter, to hover, one must shove downward a mass of air equal to the flight vehicle.

[Vardar]

Thank you. In the EotW scene it sounds like Moir is holding with Air (as Shortkut says). We are not really sure Aginor is using the TP even if he is levitating. In that case it sounds like an early bookism.

 

I had forgotten about Ishy floating in TDR. I must re-read that scene. Not sure how to reconcile that.

 

You're welcome.

 

everbody: in the books, the characters do say, one can't fly because it is impossible to pick onesself up by their own boot straps. The second half of this statement is true, but the first half is not. to fly one does not pick themselves up, but push down on the air around them, airplane wings are large enough to push down on a sufficient amount of air (for those who understand lift better, know it is about pressure) but it is even easier to see by a helicopter, to hover, one must shove downward a mass of air equal to the flight vehicle.

 

But the boot strap argument makes 0 sense in a world where that same magic can be used by 1 man to lift two women off the ground from feet away with ease, one man can freeze a dozen people in place with that magic, air. Who says the air has to be anchored anywhere? If you make a platform of air in mid-air, will it fall? When Suian made that knife of air in front of her, it didn't blow away with the breath in the room.

 

The whole idea of something needing to be anchored means when someone lifts something with air, the thread of air is anchored on them (I suppose their midsection where the weave comes from), which would imply that the weight is being borne by their body. IF that's the case, then when Narshima lifts the water from that river to put out the fire (Was that him?) he should have been crushed beneath the weight.

[shortkut]

Magic can defy physics. Stop trying to work it out. We don't know how everything in our world works so how can we apply that feeble understanding to a made up world with made up laws of physics? Yes RJ tried to base the world off of our physics, but he himself said he was at least 15 years behind on the literature.

[Vardar]

Magic can defy physics. Stop trying to work it out. We don't know how everything in our world works so how can we apply that feeble understanding to a made up world with made up laws of physics? Yes RJ tried to base the world off of our physics, but he himself said he was at least 15 years behind on the literature.

 

I believe if you read back through the last few pages, that was my entire point.

[shortkut]

It was more a general complaint, but i guess i shouldn't have skimmed the preceding pages

Edited July 17, 2012 by shortkut

[Thrasymachus]

Sho-wings flew, and I can't remember if jo-cars did as well. Presumably, these are ter'angreal of some sort, designed to transport people around. So it's clearly not true that it's impossible to "fly" with the OP or the TP. It may not be as easy as simply weaving a rope of Air around yourself and picking yourself up, but it should be possible for a channeler to "weave" themselves into the air and propel themselves around. And there are legends of AS of the AoL who could fly. The restriction appears to be on creating a "bridge" of Air, the height and distance one can span with it. To an outside, non-channeling observer, that would look like floating or flying. It seems clear that Jordan was trying to play to a kind of "equal and opposite reaction" when he came up with that restriction, but it's an apparent inconsistency because it's Magic, and Magic doesn't even follow the basic laws of thermodynamics, let alone the more specific applications of them to mechanical physics, so it appears, at best, an arbitrary limitation.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I think the references to being able to levitate or fly are all in character, so perhaps it is like other things that were thought to be impossible.

[Vardar]

I think the references to being able to levitate or fly are all in character, so perhaps it is like other things that were thought to be impossible.

 

That's basically what I was arguing.

[Mario Cole]

Its probably something that didn't occur to anyone how to do. Maybe we'll see the coin shenanigans from Mistborn in WoT-land. Or once they have dragon tubes the circus troopes will start firing themselves out of the same tubes, creating a method AS can emulate with the one power.

[avernite]

Air can obviously control the wind, so making an Asha'man-glider driven by a nice airflow with wings made of Air attached to said AM's arms would look like a decent possibility. Or maybe make an Air-propellor attached to each 'wing'.

 

Next up, Asha'man Stukas.

[Kahsm]

We're a little off topic, but Rand made a bridge with air that he walked across, and we were fairly reliably told that women could make bridges even longer before the "phsyics" (the physics of the OP at least) no longer worked out and the bridge would collapse.

 

Does that OP have to be strung between two "real" objects? Possible. I don't know the details, but there is a demonstrated example of someone holding themselves up with the OP. So I'm not entirely convinced there's a hard limit on flying with the OP.

 

I think we can take it as fact that you cannot lift yourself with flows of air the way you can lift someone else. But Randlanders are notoriously non-innovative, so I wouldn't take that to mean there aren't other ways to do it.