Seanchan Prophecy

[Edynol]

About the Seanchan prophecy. We know the Seanchan prophecy regarding the Dragon, the Essanik Cycle, is supposedly corrupted or something by Ishy, right? So, to what extent is it corrupted? Is the whole thing made up, or were some words changed around? And is there somewhere I can find the whole prophecy? I search the interview DB but was unsuccessful. So will Rand bow to Tuon or bind her to his will? Is it Tuon that is supposed to bow to him? I read that it is a combination of the Karaethon Cycle and an ancient Seanchan prophecy, but what is the ancient Seanchan prophecy? Do you think they may somehow find it again? Or maybe when Mat uses the horn, Tuon will be there and maybe they could ask Hawkwing and he'll tell Tuon the right of things?

 

Any thoughts or answers?

[Terez]

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_9728c76cmd2&revision=_latest&pli=1

[Majsju]

The Essanik cycle is unique for the Seanchan, as it is made from Damane Foretellings. Parts of it are corrupted, but we do not know which parts. I am one of those who elieves the part about Rand kneeling to Tuon is something ishy changed, but there is no way of knowing for certain. Especially since even if that part is fake, it can still happen, if Tuon insists, and Rand decides he needs the Seanchan enough.

Aside from the Essanik Cycle, the Seanchan also has a version of the Karaethon Cycle. No way of knowing how much that one differs from the original, Ishamael might have been playing around with that one as well. And of course, Luthair brought it to Seanchan 1000 years ago, and time changing facts is a fairly big theme in the books...

 

The full prophecies are not available anywhere. Simply because RJ did not write the full prophecies, he wrote what he needed. So what is available are the bits we can find in the books.

[Edynol]

Oh okay. Thanks. Is there any speculation on what the original prophecy might have said before it was changed?

[fikkie77]

Oh okay. Thanks. Is there any speculation on what the original prophecy might have said before it was changed?

probably that what we know: That he will bind the Nine Moons to him. By formulating the other way Ishy has sown the seed of strife between Rand and the Seanchan.

[Deadsy]

The Essanik cycle is unique for the Seanchan, as it is made from Damane Foretellings. Parts of it are corrupted, but we do not know which parts. I am one of those who elieves the part about Rand kneeling to Tuon is something ishy changed, but there is no way of knowing for certain. Especially since even if that part is fake, it can still happen, if Tuon insists, and Rand decides he needs the Seanchan enough.

Aside from the Essanik Cycle, the Seanchan also has a version of the Karaethon Cycle. No way of knowing how much that one differs from the original, Ishamael might have been playing around with that one as well. And of course, Luthair brought it to Seanchan 1000 years ago, and time changing facts is a fairly big theme in the books...

The way you worded this, you make it sound like the Dragon kneeling prophecy is in the Essanik cycle. It isn't. It's in the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle. We don't have any evidence within the books that the Essanik Cycle has been tampered with. Our evidence that the Karaethon Cycle has been tampered with is that one or more of its' prophecies is different than the Randland version. (Namely the one you mentioned about binding the nine moons vs. Rand kneeling).

[Terez]

Read the link I gave; it even has the relevant Brandon quotes.

[yoniy0]

https://docs.google....n=_latest&pli=1

Note that the Essanik Cycle didn't exist when Luthair arrived in Seanchan, since there were no damane then.

[Suttree]

About the Seanchan prophecy. We know the Seanchan prophecy regarding the Dragon, the Essanik Cycle, is supposedly corrupted or something by Ishy, right?

 

The Essanik isn't corrupted. It is the Karaethon that Luthair brought with him that is most likely doctored up by Ishy.

[Edynol]

Ahh yeah that's right. And that one has already been fullfilled right? With him being blind and weeping on his grave and all?

[Maleshub]

Ahh yeah that's right. And that one has already been fullfilled right? With him being blind and weeping on his grave and all?

 

Corrupted doesn't necessarily mean that every single prophecy inside is wrong. It could be few of them mixed with many more that are right.

[Terez]

https://docs.google....n=_latest&pli=1

Note that the Essanik Cycle didn't exist when Luthair arrived in Seanchan, since there were no damane then.

 

That's too fine a parsing of Brandon's words. If RJ had said that, then it would be different, but he didn't.

[yoniy0]

That's too fine a parsing of Brandon's words. If RJ had said that, then it would be different, but he didn't.

I'm confused. That would be a valid point (Brandon really isn't as exact), if there were a counter argument. As it is, I fail to see why you would doubt him (I mean, if you were on the fence I'd had no qualms about it, but in that article you assert the opposite with certainty).

[Terez]

That's too fine a parsing of Brandon's words. If RJ had said that, then it would be different, but he didn't.

I'm confused. That would be a valid point (Brandon really isn't as exact), if there were a counter argument. As it is, I fail to see why you would doubt him (I mean, if you were on the fence I'd had no qualms about it, but in that article you assert the opposite with certainty).

 

He knows that the Essanik was given on Seanchan. He also knows that all channelers on Seanchan are damane. It's an easy thing to jump to without considering that it might have predated Luthair (at least parts of it). Most of the KC was given during the Breaking; why should the Essanik be different? So I don't want to assume he was delineating age unless someone can get him to clarify further.

[yoniy0]

Yes, I agreed that it's the sort of thing Brandon might do. My issue is with the certainty of your assertion on that page (when we both dislike it when the wiki does similar things; not every reader has the right perspective, and that's how misconception begins).

 

Suttree and Edynol, if you'll look in the link Terez provided, Brandon hinted that the Essanik might've been tempered with as well. At the very least, it contains just as many inaccuracies as one might expect.

[Finnssss22]

Given the state of the Seanchan continent prior to Luthair's arrival, I for one, find it hard to believe that there was much in the way of organised "Fortune keeping" and even if there was some that was organised, I am doubtful it would of received any credibility by Luthair and his descendants.

 

Like has been said, we really don't have proof either way but the ES being post Luthair, actual damane only does seem more logical.

 

The ES's accuracy is another matter all together. Should be believe that these foretellings were not "re-worded" in the name of the Grand Empire?

[Majsju]

The Essanik cycle is unique for the Seanchan, as it is made from Damane Foretellings. Parts of it are corrupted, but we do not know which parts. I am one of those who elieves the part about Rand kneeling to Tuon is something ishy changed, but there is no way of knowing for certain. Especially since even if that part is fake, it can still happen, if Tuon insists, and Rand decides he needs the Seanchan enough.

Aside from the Essanik Cycle, the Seanchan also has a version of the Karaethon Cycle. No way of knowing how much that one differs from the original, Ishamael might have been playing around with that one as well. And of course, Luthair brought it to Seanchan 1000 years ago, and time changing facts is a fairly big theme in the books...

The way you worded this, you make it sound like the Dragon kneeling prophecy is in the Essanik cycle. It isn't. It's in the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle. We don't have any evidence within the books that the Essanik Cycle has been tampered with. Our evidence that the Karaethon Cycle has been tampered with is that one or more of its' prophecies is different than the Randland version. (Namely the one you mentioned about binding the nine moons vs. Rand kneeling).

 

I could have phrased it better, true. But, the key point remains - We can not with the information available know with absolute certainity what has been changed. And that goes for both prophecies.

[Terez]

Yes, I agreed that it's the sort of thing Brandon might do. My issue is with the certainty of your assertion on that page

 

You didn't mention any assertion on my page, so I had no idea what you were talking about until now.

[Suttree]

Suttree and Edynol, if you'll look in the link Terez provided, Brandon hinted that the Essanik might've been tempered with as well. At the very least, it contains just as many inaccuracies as one might expect.

 

Yeah I've checked them out before. Should have clarified that I was referring specifically to Ishy corrupting the K...

[yoniy0]

You didn't mention any assertion on my page

Oh, sorry , I should probably have said it plainly, rather than commenting on the link. I did however say this later:

but in that article you assert the opposite with certainty

[csnyder]

It is logical to consider that the Prophecies this side of the Aryth Ocean were 'tampered' with as well.

And I am in Terez's boat saying there are probably pre-Luthair Seanchan elements to the Essanik Cycle -

I just hate how in the dark we are about the requirements for getting any said prophecy annexed to the Karaethon Cycle.

[Jemlin]

On a side note. I have always kind of wondered about the "Dark Prophecies" and their validity. In that, they seem to me to still be part of the Pattern, and not necessarily just of the Dark. I mean, Darkfriends and Chosen can "assume" they are serving the Dark One by enacting said prophecies...but, as far as I understand, all fortellings and dreaming are related to the Pattern...not the Dark One. It seems the characters divide some things up by "light" and "dark" that may ultimately just be neutral in the ultimate fulfillment of the pattern.

 

If that makes sense.

[Terez]

Moiraine said the Pattern was neutral, to Perrin in TDR. And Brandon confirmed that Dark Prophecies are valid, confirming what Moiraine said in TGH.

[Dagon Thyne]

The Seanchan version is twisted and corrupted by Ishy. I mean, he is the one who told AH to send his troops overseas anyway. He had to have been traveling to Seanchan and keeping tabs on them, and making sure their culture took the shape that he wanted. He most likely had the propesies changed and altered after they Seanchan empire was set up

[Finnssss22]

The Seanchan version is twisted and corrupted by Ishy. I mean, he is the one who told AH to send his troops overseas anyway. He had to have been traveling to Seanchan and keeping tabs on them, and making sure their culture took the shape that he wanted. He most likely had the propesies changed and altered after they Seanchan empire was set up

 

More likely it was the copies of the KC that Luthair left across the sea with that were corrupted by Ishy.

The Seanchan Empire, as we know it today, has only been set up in whole for about 300 years now. It took over 800 years of fighting for those lands to be Consolidated.

The current shape of the Seanchan culture today also more likely resulted from incorporating and retaining pieces of cultures already there. There is no evidence that Ishy had anything to do with Seanchan once Luthair left Randland.

 

The EC is prolly not corrupted per sey but whether or not what the damane said was "re-worded" as to not offend the Empire is a possibility IMO.