Nynaeve, the most arrogant character in WoT?

[Suttree]

Come on sutt, are you seriously making this argument?

You'd better believe it............

1+ to you my man, but I still have hope for Sutt

 

Actually it's the point our side has been making all along. Cadsuane is not inherently rude. You presented a situation in which Cads had a premeditated plan and her inclusion of an invite through the sea folk was part of that. In your first post you claimed she was rude here for no reason and that is unequivocally not the case. This was all part of the plan that culminated in her being in a position to save Rand. This whole section was made to show us how meticulous she is.

 

To say she was doing this only to show she can is somewhat shocking. Did the whole plan in this section of WH go completely over both of your heads? Then again considering the person giving you support in this thread is named after a character from bluntly written, glorified marketing materials made to sell more 50 sided dice it's not surprising that it would.

come on sutt you are getting personal and that is uncalled for, but if she had stayed at an inn everyone still would have known that she is in far madding and from what we have seen her reputation precedes her. So, if she had stayed at an inn she could have still effected the events as much as she did. I am sorry sutt, but there is exactly zero textual evidence of your contention.

O he does it all the time as well as being bullyish and rude and downright mean.......No one ever calls him for it though....I wonder why?

 

I'm trying to recall if I have ever seen you offer an opinion or if it's always sniping from the weeds as in this thread. I'm not called out on it because your assertion of my actions are false. Numerous long standing members at DM and TL can attest to my posting history. Your characterization rings hollow and most can plainly see you made it personnel as opposed to focusing on the topic. All I did was respond. Do you truly think I would have given the same answer had you talked about Cads instead of me?

 

So let's move on shall we. How do you interpret the scene and Cads actions in Far Madding?

[Lisa Campbell]

Sutt, Luckers, Mr Ares,

 

Your patience once again astounds me. It's taken me hours just to read this entire thread. I've enjoyed it but it's been a slog too.

 

I know lots of posters make errors but most admit it. Hell, I've been corrected many times, even for stuff that I must have dreamt up after falling asleep reading. You guys are usually the ones to point my errors out to me in a kind and respectful manner. Enough said on the Cadsuane is a bully debate OK guys? Please?

 

Whether or not Cadsuane is a bully or just acting like one at times (to me, it's a tool but perhaps she does use it too readily - that's as good as you'll get Vardamus), that doesn't make her arrogant. Which was the original topic of this thread.

 

As for who is the most arrogant in the series, I think it was Semirhage. I don't really need to explain it do I? Assinated Seanchan royalty, posed as Tuon to try to trap Rand, was contemptuous of Cadsuane and the other Aes Sedai, was contemptuous of Shadar Haran, Ishamael and the Dark One, tried to capture and manipulate Rand to kill Min etc. etc. etc..

 

Arrogant and still living? Hmmm, I might have to think some more on that, not a channeller though.

 

Arrogant on the boards? Goes without saying. And arrogance definately results in rudeness.

 

Elci

[condonmc]

Sigh...making it personal? No Suttree, as much as you would like to think so. If you read this entire thread you would realize that it has become a ridiculous conversation based on people who both like Cad but want to argue for arguments sake...its gotten a little silly....and im sorry that I cant type up a 27 paragraph post like your colledge educated self, I hate cadsuane with a passion and I dont care what you think of that... I also think if you werent such a dick more people who love WOT and just want to hang with others who do, wouldnt be so nervous to put out there little 2 cence one liners for fear that your out there looking for another opertunity to show what a posh snob you are and blab how every one should " keep their heads down" when it comes to disagreeing with you..... yes Suttree we all no youv been here way longer and all glory to you p.s. I interpret the scene as cads being horrible and hypocritical character RJ ever wrote wether on purpose cause shes a genious are cause her nature she ruins lives without a thought and I dont really see how she taught Rand anything......So were all waiting for your respone Suttree or am I just gonna get another warning point over this.......

[Suttree]

Sigh...making it personal? No Suttree, as much as you would like to think so. If you read this entire thread you would realize that it has become a ridiculous conversation based on people who both like Cad but want to argue for arguments sake...its gotten a little silly....and im sorry that I cant type up a 27 paragraph post like your colledge educated self, I hate cadsuane with a passion and I dont care what you think of that... I also think if you werent such a dick more people who love WOT and just want to hang with others who do, wouldnt be so nervous to put out there little 2 cence one liners for fear that your out there looking for another opertunity to show what a posh snob you are and blab how every one should " keep their heads down" when it comes to disagreeing with you..... yes Suttree we all no youv been here way longer and all glory to you p.s. I interpret the scene as cads being horrible and hypocritical character RJ ever wrote wether on purpose cause shes a genious are cause her nature she ruins lives without a thought and I dont really see how she taught Rand anything......So were all waiting for your respone Suttree or am I just gonna get another warning point over this.......

 

Well I tried to move things back to the topic at hand and I think everyone can see what that got me. You call me a dick and a posh snob but it's not personnel? Lol ermm yeah. So leaving aside the peevish barbs Your opinion is that Cads is a horrible person whose nature is to ruin lives? Say what you will about us wanting to argue for arguments sake but all you need to do is go back and read the thread to see multiple people chiming in to praise our patience in giving concrete examples from the text and laying out well reasoned arguments. That's is all we can do, if others ignore what is written (as in the Far Madding example) that is their loss.

 

Lastly I thank you not to misquote me. It had nothing to do with you disagreeing. It had to do with you assuming you could speak for the community as a whole. I said I personally "kept my head down" as I learned the lay of the land. Someone else who had been here longer than I gave me that advice and it served me well. That is far different from offering your opinion on the story. We always welcome differing viewpoints and a good debate so by all means take the "opertunity" and put in your "2 cence" ;)

[muddasssir]

well jar sorry could not spell your name properly. I don't know that Whether sutt bullies or not but he has serious problems with admitting that he could be wrong. Here I am arguing that cads is a good character but her acts are that of a bully. He says, "The dispute here is one side saying she is a just a bully and the other saying she uses various tactics(including bullying) to achieve her goals". Go back and read my post that is exactly what I said. Does it makes her a bully? In my book, yes. She could have chosen another way of doing it but she did not, as it is natural to her to bludgeon her way through when she could have walked through by saying, "excuse me". Again I admit that is a good character but she had been a bully throughout. As I said before, She is a very effective character but she does bully and that can make it hard for people to digest hr. As for rudeness, I did not said a word t you to recive the kind of rebuff you gave me I did not take it seriously because we have been at it for a long time. Therefore, we do banter but someone who do not know will be intimidated.

[Knivy]

I' ll repeat myself She is bullying Aleis for no reason. If she had stayed at an Inn how would that have effected her final confrontation with Aleis? She takes her Ashaman to council chamber and uses Nynaeve's well. If she had stayed at an inn she could have still done it and she did not need to have bullied Aleis for that invitation. As for verin doing her thing with guardian . well she did that before she was invited to live with Aleis. Threfore, t had no bearing on that. I respect that RJ sad that she is flexible but that is not the way he and later BS wrote her. That scene with Tam was extremely consistent to way she had been behaving through out the series. She refuses to accept Nyny as a sister because she had not held the oath rod and she was not raised conventionally. Her rudeness to Athan miere ambassador was totally uncalled for. One can quote hundreds of such incidents where she could have taken another approach but she refused and took the path of a bully. now question is was it an effective plot ploy? Answer is an emphatic yes. whether she behaved like a bully? Answer is again an emphatic yes. We or at least me do not doubt her intentions but her actions are the ones of a bully and do not take me wrong. As, I said before that she is a very effective character and this is a part of her charm. I offer a compromise one side concedes that she does behave as a bully denying it is besides the point in face of over whelming textual evidence. Other side at least on my part i am willing to concede that she is a super character and if someone does not agr with that assessment I can live with that too.

 

Sigh. You do realize repeating yourself doesnt make it any more true correct? All it does is show you are willing to ignore textual evidence. Mudd before commenting please go back and read the segment in question. You continue to get the details wrong. Once again she used the invitation so she would have unfettered access to the palace including the room with the guardian. Verin's quote about a man channeling, contrary to your assertion comes AFTER the invite. This was critical to the entire plan as it set up being able to save Rand later. If Cads had no access to the palace and Verin had not set things up with the ashaman channeling then there is no plan!!! Not sure why you assume she could have accomplished it in other ways? It's plain as day. It was a premeditated action and each of those steps was part of the plan. I don't know how anyone can make it more plain to you but you can't argue with what happens in the text.

 

The dispute here is one side saying she is a just a bully and the other saying she uses various tactics(including bullying) to achieve her goals.

 

One last point the scene with Tam was extremely out of character and many people here on the boards have expressed disappointment with how the scene was handled by BS. The Cads from earlier in the series would never have resorted to threats with the power. She would have been disgusted by any AS that would need to. The whole scene stands out as a highlight of the "blunt plot work" people are talking about in other threads.

 

Quick question about the Far Madding incident.. How does Cads know she will need to be staying at the palace to save Rand? The whole Rand is in Trouble section happened days after the encounter, and they had no idea it would end up that way...

 

EDIT: can we please keep this as civil as possible?

[Suttree]

well jar sorry could not spell your name properly. I don't know that Whether sutt bullies or not but he has serious problems with admitting that he could be wrong.

 

Mudd we have had many excellent debates over the years and when you have shown me to be wrong I have conceded the point to you. It may not happen frequently and granted I can hold on to a certain viewpoint a bit too tenaciously but I also have no problem admitting when I am wrong. Given this particular example in Far Madding however that is emphatically not the case.

 

character but her acts are that of a bully. He says, "The dispute here is one side saying she is a just a bully and the other saying she uses various tactics(including bullying) to achieve her goals". Go back and read my post that is exactly what I said. Does it makes her a bully? In my book, yes. She could have chosen another way of doing it but she did not, as it is natural to her to bludgeon her way through when she could have walked through by saying, "excuse me". .

 

And that is exactly where we disagree. Her natural state is not that of a bully an she gets no enjoyment from it. Rather she calculates each situation and adjusts her tactics accordingly.

[Suttree]

I' ll repeat myself She is bullying Aleis for no reason. If she had stayed at an Inn how would that have effected her final confrontation with Aleis? She takes her Ashaman to council chamber and uses Nynaeve's well. If she had stayed at an inn she could have still done it and she did not need to have bullied Aleis for that invitation. As for verin doing her thing with guardian . well she did that before she was invited to live with Aleis. Threfore, t had no bearing on that. I respect that RJ sad that she is flexible but that is not the way he and later BS wrote her. That scene with Tam was extremely consistent to way she had been behaving through out the series. She refuses to accept Nyny as a sister because she had not held the oath rod and she was not raised conventionally. Her rudeness to Athan miere ambassador was totally uncalled for. One can quote hundreds of such incidents where she could have taken another approach but she refused and took the path of a bully. now question is was it an effective plot ploy? Answer is an emphatic yes. whether she behaved like a bully? Answer is again an emphatic yes. We or at least me do not doubt her intentions but her actions are the ones of a bully and do not take me wrong. As, I said before that she is a very effective character and this is a part of her charm. I offer a compromise one side concedes that she does behave as a bully denying it is besides the point in face of over whelming textual evidence. Other side at least on my part i am willing to concede that she is a super character and if someone does not agr with that assessment I can live with that too.

 

Sigh. You do realize repeating yourself doesnt make it any more true correct? All it does is show you are willing to ignore textual evidence. Mudd before commenting please go back and read the segment in question. You continue to get the details wrong. Once again she used the invitation so she would have unfettered access to the palace including the room with the guardian. Verin's quote about a man channeling, contrary to your assertion comes AFTER the invite. This was critical to the entire plan as it set up being able to save Rand later. If Cads had no access to the palace and Verin had not set things up with the ashaman channeling then there is no plan!!! Not sure why you assume she could have accomplished it in other ways? It's plain as day. It was a premeditated action and each of those steps was part of the plan. I don't know how anyone can make it more plain to you but you can't argue with what happens in the text.

 

The dispute here is one side saying she is a just a bully and the other saying she uses various tactics(including bullying) to achieve her goals.

 

One last point the scene with Tam was extremely out of character and many people here on the boards have expressed disappointment with how the scene was handled by BS. The Cads from earlier in the series would never have resorted to threats with the power. She would have been disgusted by any AS that would need to. The whole scene stands out as a highlight of the "blunt plot work" people are talking about in other threads.

 

Quick question about the Far Madding incident.. How does Cads know she will need to be staying at the palace to save Rand? The whole Rand is in Trouble section happened days after the encounter, and they had no idea it would end up that way...

 

EDIT: can we please keep this as civil as possible?

 

Cads needed access to the palace so they could get into the room with the guardian allowing Verin to kick start the plan. She did not know what was going to happen exactly but given the circumstances she was preparing for every eventuality.

[Knivy]

I believe that immediate rudeness was not necessary, in those circumstances... A simple "may we please see the guardian" would have sufficed.

[Suttree]

I believe that immediate rudeness was not necessary, in those circumstances... A simple "may we please see the guardian" would have sufficed.

 

Recall Aleis only welcomed in the atha'an miere and not the AS. Withouth Cads having the foresight to make the deal that she goes where they go they very well could have been denied entrance. Not to mention this guarantees total acces, not just to the guardian room which was very important given the range of things that could go wrong. All of this was done with Rand in mind.

[Knivy]

Wasnt there some longstanding grudge between Aleis and Cads?

[Luckers]

She is both considerate and fair. She is also quite abrasive when she feels the need for it. These things are not mutually exclusive.

[TristanWebb]

I don't like Cads, I feel she is the epitome of the WT knows everything which rubs me the wrong way.

 

That said, everything she does is calculated precisely in advance, she isn't rude to be rude she is rude because it will get her what she wants. She is hypocritical with her treatment of Rand, but what AS isn't? Cadsuane is the ultimate Aes Sedai, and part of that is feeling above anyone who isn't female and most who are.

 

 

[Suttree]

Wasnt there some longstanding grudge between Aleis and Cads?

 

There were a couple things. First Cadsuane is from Far Madding and per Kumira ""The Counsels are seldom happy to see Aes Sedai, especially sisters born here. I think they would like to pretend the Power doesn't exist." In addition some 20 years ago during the Aiel war apparently Aleis had "swelled head" and a number of bad habits that needed correcting. Cads calls this out in furthering her plan to have the council members on their heals and fractured should something happen to Rand.

 

Once the plan was successful and Rand was saved from the cells and Elaida's clutches Cads regrets the need for it all, "Cadsuane drew a deep breath. She had promised the boy that whatever she did would be for his good, not the good of the Tower or anyone else's, and now she had broken a good woman for his good. "I am very sorry, Aleis," she said.". This is not the first time she has expressed the sentiment and it highlights her philosophy in doing what is needed for the good of Rand's mission and the world. It quite clearly dispels the assertion that she is "selfish" and shows she takes no joy in running rough shod over others. More so it showcases how laughably absurd claims that "ruining lives without a thought" is part of her nature.

[muddasssir]

And that is exactly where we disagree. Her natural state is not that of a bully an she gets no enjoyment from it. Rather she calculates each situation and adjusts her tactics accordingly.

 

Again something you chose to ignore is the fact that she did not need to be in room to make the guardian work. It just points in the direction from which the channeling had taken place. So, there really was no need for her to bully Aleis. Again let me reiterate myself. She does it out of habit as it comes naturally to her. Because for so long she had had her way and it makes her feel that she is entitled to it.

[Knivy]

CoT p553

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

This bolded line seems to present the entirety of the argument. Her first thought is of bullying, but if that wont work she wont shy away from using what will.

[Suttree]

And that is exactly where we disagree. Her natural state is not that of a bully an she gets no enjoyment from it. Rather she calculates each situation and adjusts her tactics accordingly.

 

Again something you chose to ignore is the fact that she did not need to be in room to make the guardian work. It just points in the direction from which the channeling had taken place. So, there really was no need for her to bully Aleis. Again let me reiterate myself. She does it out of habit as it comes naturally to her. Because for so long she had had her way and it makes her feel that she is entitled to it.

 

Ok this is extremely ironic that you were earlier accusing me of refusing to except being wrong. Every ounce of available evidence from Cads and Aleis background, to the deal she made with the Atha'an Miere, to driving a wedge between the council members, to Verin calling out their own Ashaman channeling, to the story of Guare Amalsan which they had to be present to tell, to driving home the point of male channelers being a threat, etc. etc. etc. and on and on through the end of the plan. Of course they had to be present themselves not only to play out the script but also in case she needed full access(which she did again later) for whatever else might happen. It was all premeditated and it all was necessary in saving Rand at the end.

 

Regardless I can't bang my head against the wall anymore. At this point all I can do is implore you to go back and read what actually happened. It will all become very clear when you do. If the reality of the text doesn't matter to you all I can do is shrug but I would hope you would want to understand to fully enjoy the series. This is one of the examples RJ used to show the extent of her foresight in planning and commitment to saving Rand at all costs. You can reiterate your assertion all you want but it bears no basis in reality. There was every need to handle Aleis as she did and Cadsuane regrets that it was the case. Nevertheless she did so because she promised all she does "would be for his good".

 

 

CoT p553

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

This bolded line seems to present the entirety of the argument. Her first thought is of bullying, but if that wont work she wont shy away from using what will.

 

Ermmm what would possibly make you reach that conclusion? If anything this is direct evidence that she uses a variety of methods based on the situation. Samitsu is obviously suffering a crisis of confidence and Cads is stating what is needed to get her out of it and also what wouldn't work. Earlier she mentions what the WOs and her had been using to keep the Dragonsworn sisters in line and thinks she needs a different tact entirely with Samitsu. Not to mention you leave out how effective she is, all this does is underline her success at using varying methods based on the situation. Indeed by her own admission "it was ridiculous not to use what worked"

 

CoT

As Cadsuane reminded her how intelligent she was, how skilled at Healing – that was always nec­essary, with Samitsu; she could go into a depression over failing to Heal a dead man – how clever, the Arafellin sister began to draw up her composure. And her self-assurance. “You can be assured Sashalle won’t change her stockings with­out I know it,” she said crisply. In truth, Cadsuane expected no less.

[FanoLan]

And that is exactly where we disagree. Her natural state is not that of a bully an she gets no enjoyment from it. Rather she calculates each situation and adjusts her tactics accordingly.

 

Again something you chose to ignore is the fact that she did not need to be in room to make the guardian work. It just points in the direction from which the channeling had taken place. So, there really was no need for her to bully Aleis. Again let me reiterate myself. She does it out of habit as it comes naturally to her. Because for so long she had had her way and it makes her feel that she is entitled to it.

 

Cadsuane chose to assert her influence over Aleis (which stemmed both from their previous encounters and the fact Cads is AS) from the beginning, in case she would need to direct Aleis' behaviour at a later time in order to protect Rand. No matter the eventuality, enhancing her ability to secure any particular outcome as required by events was the goal here. In essence, Cads ensured her ability to communitcate directly with Aleis by securing a welcome in the Barsalla estate. "Forcing" Aleis to extend that welcome, in front of the other Counsels, put Cadsuane in a better position to exert her influence if it were to become necessary. Obviously, it did become necessary and due to Cadsuane's foresight and effectiveness at preparation, Rand was released from the dungeon before Elaida could send someone to capture him.

 

Edit - I see Suttree pretty much covered these points already, nicely done.

[shortkut]

Basically this thread has turned into "the ends/intentions justifies the means" vs "no it doesn't" as well as people defending their precious egos. What does it bed to the understanding of the story? Everyone essentially agrees on why she has done what she did but not on whether she was, for lack of a better word polite, in doing so. This thread reads like a bunch of 10 year olds bickering when people could be better using their time to figure out what demandred did in LoC when he asked the DO if he did well at the end of the book

[FanoLan]

Basically this thread has turned into "the ends/intentions justifies the means" vs "no it doesn't" as well as people defending their precious egos. What does it bed to the understanding of the story? Everyone essentially agrees on why she has done what she did but not on whether she was, for lack of a better word polite, in doing so. This thread reads like a bunch of 10 year olds bickering when people could be better using their time to figure out what demandred did in LoC when he asked the DO if he did well at the end of the book

 

I don't think the bolded accurately represents the varying perspectives in this thread.

 

Hopefully, you forgot to add an "/sarcasm" to the tail of your post.

[Ashaman Kovan]

The bolded may not, but the rest is pretty accurate.

[muddasssir]

Sutt everyone gets it but us two it seems lol I man we are saying xactly the same thing but from two different perspectives. May be it is our cultural differences I don't know but in my culture you are not impolite to your worst enemy even seconds before you kill him. you may be forgiven for killing him but not for insulting him or abusing him. you say she uses it as a tactic, while I say that she does it as a habit. Actually it is bit of both and I never said that she cannot adopt to a situation or she s too fickle. From our acquaintance on these boards, you should know me better than that. I would never call a character that is inconsistent or too set in his or her ways. As a character that I like and I have said plenty of times that I like cads as a character. She is like a gunslinger, her first instinct is to be arrogant for the want of better word. When she is confronted with a situation. This makes her bulldoze the opposition when she can. Which in turn makes her come out as a bully. She does not try to do it with Sorillea, which shows her adaptability. But again that Samitsu quote above shows exactly what I have been saying all along. She is a wonderful character, she enhances the series by her presence but some of her actions can be irritating to live with and rub people the wrong way. i said it to MOB on another thread that others have feelings at least as acute as yours. I can bet that if you have to you will find it very hard to live with someone like her. This is the perspective that comes across to me from the people who dislike cads. Se i do not need to tell you that these charactrs are real to us at some level of consciousness. At least, we want them to be real. Therefore, sometimes we have trouble just accepting their weaknesses and we take it as a personal offense. Similarly, people defending these characters feel honor bound to defend an old freind even if he or she is a jerk to use a milder euphemism.

[shortkut]

Basically this thread has turned into "the ends/intentions justifies the means" vs "no it doesn't" as well as people defending their precious egos. What does it bed to the understanding of the story? Everyone essentially agrees on why she has done what she did but not on whether she was, for lack of a better word polite, in doing so. This thread reads like a bunch of 10 year olds bickering when people could be better using their time to figure out what demandred did in LoC when he asked the DO if he did well at the end of the book

I don't think the bolded accurately represents the varying perspectives in this thread.

 

Hopefully, you forgot to add an "/sarcasm" to the tail of your post.

the bolded part represents an over-simplification of the views in this thread.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Is there really any need to argue about this? Of course Cadsuane is arrogant to some extent. She has been the top dog in Aes Sedai society for hundreds of years. And most Aes Sedai believe themselves to be on top of regular society anyways.

There hasn't been anyone who could gainsay her or force her to do anything against her will for a very long time. How could she not be arrogant? But that's really no reason to villify her. She has good intentions afterall and while she may take it as given that whatever she says is right and should be obeyed with her life experience it is a fact that she is right most of the time. Even if she tends to bully people.

 

There are quite a number of arrogant people in WOT, more women than men, because the balance of power is skewed in their direction, but they are usually still good people inspite of their flaws. Power and arrogance often goes hand in hand. There are a few exceptions, like the Aiel chieftains who wouldn't have survived Rhuidean if they were arrogant, but most positions of power have nowhere near as thorough a selection process.

[Vardar]

Where is everyone from? Ares said he's from England, Mudd where are you from? You noted cultural differences, however I said the exact same thing your said in your first 2 lines pages back. Heck, she could have broken Alsi without the rudeness to be honest.

 

Luckers, we are not going to agree there. Unless you're claiming she's fair by being rude to everyone (A point I'll be forced to concede) then I cannot wrap my mind around describing a rube abrasive bully as considerate and fair.

 

Sutt, I'll go reread, I don't recall her apologizing directly, did she mutter it under her breath? And even so, she's apologizing for breaking her, not for being rude. 2 different topics.

 

Shorkut, I really don't know what adds. I gave my opinion, I was told I was wrong, and the debate began. Apparently I misread Cads and she's not arrogant or rude at all. The crux of the debate as started on page 2. I disagree with the 10 year old part, it would be a lot funnier if it were.

 

b3arz3rg3r (What is that supposed to say btw, just curious): I'm not villifying her because she's arrogant, you can be arrogant and think you're better than others, but not treat them like dirt. I'm villifying her treatment of others. As to the rest of your statement, you pretty much summed up exactly what I said, too long as being the top dog has given her that mentality.