Lan's Charge

[Maleshub]

They had a few hundred Aes Sedai and 50K troops defending against a besieging army that had Traveling. Their military doctrine should have prepared them for the eventuality of the besiegers using Traveling to storm the Tower. But they weren't prepared.

 

1- You still haven't explained how sisters who had not dealt with anyone outside of their ajah for some time, to the point that each one was basically a separate armed encampment within a split WT, would all of a sudden work together to repel a heretofore unheard of aerial attack? All of this while being influenced by the power that caused Aridhol to turn on itself.

 

2- Also seeing as how travelling was just rediscovered what military doctrine would that be that had plans for that eventuality?

 

On the first point, it might be worthwhile to differentiate between inner divisions that Egwene only saw after capture and the common cause uniting these squabbling "loyalist" Aes Sedai. Egwene's and Leane's capture was by a patrol of Aes Sedai from different Ajah's. So we have evidence that for the war effort, these "loyalist" Aes Sedai are willing to put away their differences and follow orders. And the fact that the siege went on for months is evidence that Elaida managed to rally her troops (Aes Sedai and Tower Guard) to withstand the siege and defend successfully.

 

The second point not only proves that Aes Sedai lack sufficient battle experience; but their military doctrine (their ability to put channelers into banners) is also outdated. But aside from that, I would cite Siuan's and Gareth's reaction to "Elaida has Traveling." Gareth took certain tactical steps to make sure that his army isn't surprised by the sudden appearance of enemy troops behind his lines. Another example is Furyk Karede who was raised to Banner General on merit of doing reasonably well against the Ashaman and their Traveling tactic.

 

Why couldn't the Tower Guard and Aes Sedai adapt likewise and take precautionary tactical steps against the sudden appearance of channelers and conventional troops in the WT?

[TristanWebb]

The WT as a whole didn't believe that the rebels had traveling anyway, and Elaida didn't want the news that she had it to spread. They also don't have one of the great captains on their side to make battle plans against all eventualities.

[Maleshub]

The WT as a whole didn't believe that the rebels had traveling anyway, and Elaida didn't want the news that she had it to spread. They also don't have one of the great captains on their side to make battle plans against all eventualities.

 

The WT knew through Alviarin of the threat. That is why she insisted Elaida increase the Tower Guard to 50K troops. And Elaida was under the impression that Egwene and Rand were in a league. And Elaida knew that Rand had rediscovered Traveling. I cannot think of specific quotes right now; but that's the impression I have. If I am wrong, then it would be nice to have this wrong impression corrected and sorted out.

[TristanWebb]

Individual sisters knew of it, but the WT as a whole didnt believe in it. Elaida didn't trust Alviarin anyway, with good reason it turns out, but her reason for increasing the guard was to keep the rebels at bay rather than specifically working against traveling. There are numerous quotes suggesting that the WT wouldn't believe someone had rediscovered traveling, or anything else for that matter, until they had the weaves in hand.

 

The WT didn't even believe in a'dam until the Seanchan attack remember, they were far to comfortable in their belief that they knew everything to contemplate new defense strategies. I think there is even an argument about whether the DO was responsible for holding the seasons in place, but that might have been about the correction cause by the bowl of the winds.

[Vardar]

They had a few hundred Aes Sedai and 50K troops defending against a besieging army that had Traveling. Their military doctrine should have prepared them for the eventuality of the besiegers using Traveling to storm the Tower. But they weren't prepared.

 

1- You still haven't explained how sisters who had not dealt with anyone outside of their ajah for some time, to the point that each one was basically a separate armed encampment within a split WT, would all of a sudden work together to repel a heretofore unheard of aerial attack? All of this while being influenced by the power that caused Aridhol to turn on itself.

 

2- Also seeing as how travelling was just rediscovered what military doctrine would that be that had plans for that eventuality?

 

On the first point, it might be worthwhile to differentiate between inner divisions that Egwene only saw after capture and the common cause uniting these squabbling "loyalist" Aes Sedai. Egwene's and Leane's capture was by a patrol of Aes Sedai from different Ajah's. So we have evidence that for the war effort, these "loyalist" Aes Sedai are willing to put away their differences and follow orders. And the fact that the siege went on for months is evidence that Elaida managed to rally her troops (Aes Sedai and Tower Guard) to withstand the siege and defend successfully.

 

The second point not only proves that Aes Sedai lack sufficient battle experience; but their military doctrine (their ability to put channelers into banners) is also outdated. But aside from that, I would cite Siuan's and Gareth's reaction to "Elaida has Traveling." Gareth took certain tactical steps to make sure that his army isn't surprised by the sudden appearance of enemy troops behind his lines. Another example is Furyk Karede who was raised to Banner General on merit of doing reasonably well against the Ashaman and their Traveling tactic.

 

Why couldn't the Tower Guard and Aes Sedai adapt likewise and take precautionary tactical steps against the sudden appearance of channelers and conventional troops in the WT?

 

How do you adapt to your world being torn asunder? How long did the WT battle last? Less than a night?

Now let's take an example from the Seanchan, since they're held to the standard of know what they're doing.

 

When faced with Itrulde, how long did he tactics work? He fought them to a standstill, and in fact, detroyed a large portion of their army right? Sure they learned, and pretty fast, but it wasn't like after the first battle they kicked his butt.

 

Same with the Seanchan and the Asha'Man. How long did that take them? A couple weeks to a month (My time may be off here but the books made it seem like Rand was up to that for a while). They adapted, as they should, but they were shaken to their very core by the knowledge of men channelling and such.

 

Same for the WT. They were secure in their knowledge that there was no travelling and any attach would come from the walls. Just because Eladia is a bad leader, doesn't mean the org as a whole sucks at battle. I mean, there were a few bastions holding off the Seanchan right? Eggy held her own on the 4th floor, but there were other groups holding some sort of defense together as well. And all that occured in one night. It was a raid, it's hard to draw any conclusion on their battle prepardness from one HUGE quick raid.

[Maleshub]

Individual sisters knew of it, but the WT as a whole didnt believe in it. Elaida didn't trust Alviarin anyway, with good reason it turns out, but her reason for increasing the guard was to keep the rebels at bay rather than specifically working against traveling. There are numerous quotes suggesting that the WT wouldn't believe someone had rediscovered traveling, or anything else for that matter, until they had the weaves in hand.

 

The WT didn't even believe in a'dam until the Seanchan attack remember, they were far to comfortable in their belief that they knew everything to contemplate new defense strategies. I think there is even an argument about whether the DO was responsible for holding the seasons in place, but that might have been about the correction cause by the bowl of the winds.

 

How did the WT explain the sudden appearance of the rebel army around Tar Valon?

 

They had a few hundred Aes Sedai and 50K troops defending against a besieging army that had Traveling. Their military doctrine should have prepared them for the eventuality of the besiegers using Traveling to storm the Tower. But they weren't prepared.

 

1- You still haven't explained how sisters who had not dealt with anyone outside of their ajah for some time, to the point that each one was basically a separate armed encampment within a split WT, would all of a sudden work together to repel a heretofore unheard of aerial attack? All of this while being influenced by the power that caused Aridhol to turn on itself.

 

2- Also seeing as how travelling was just rediscovered what military doctrine would that be that had plans for that eventuality?

 

On the first point, it might be worthwhile to differentiate between inner divisions that Egwene only saw after capture and the common cause uniting these squabbling "loyalist" Aes Sedai. Egwene's and Leane's capture was by a patrol of Aes Sedai from different Ajah's. So we have evidence that for the war effort, these "loyalist" Aes Sedai are willing to put away their differences and follow orders. And the fact that the siege went on for months is evidence that Elaida managed to rally her troops (Aes Sedai and Tower Guard) to withstand the siege and defend successfully.

 

The second point not only proves that Aes Sedai lack sufficient battle experience; but their military doctrine (their ability to put channelers into banners) is also outdated. But aside from that, I would cite Siuan's and Gareth's reaction to "Elaida has Traveling." Gareth took certain tactical steps to make sure that his army isn't surprised by the sudden appearance of enemy troops behind his lines. Another example is Furyk Karede who was raised to Banner General on merit of doing reasonably well against the Ashaman and their Traveling tactic.

 

Why couldn't the Tower Guard and Aes Sedai adapt likewise and take precautionary tactical steps against the sudden appearance of channelers and conventional troops in the WT?

 

How do you adapt to your world being torn asunder? How long did the WT battle last? Less than a night?

Now let's take an example from the Seanchan, since they're held to the standard of know what they're doing.

 

When faced with Itrulde, how long did he tactics work? He fought them to a standstill, and in fact, detroyed a large portion of their army right? Sure they learned, and pretty fast, but it wasn't like after the first battle they kicked his butt.

 

Same with the Seanchan and the Asha'Man. How long did that take them? A couple weeks to a month (My time may be off here but the books made it seem like Rand was up to that for a while). They adapted, as they should, but they were shaken to their very core by the knowledge of men channelling and such.

 

Same for the WT. They were secure in their knowledge that there was no travelling and any attach would come from the walls. Just because Eladia is a bad leader, doesn't mean the org as a whole sucks at battle. I mean, there were a few bastions holding off the Seanchan right? Eggy held her own on the 4th floor, but there were other groups holding some sort of defense together as well. And all that occured in one night. It was a raid, it's hard to draw any conclusion on their battle prepardness from one HUGE quick raid.

 

I cited Gareth Bryne's reaction to "Elaida has Traveling." What did Elaida do when she found out that the rebels have Traveling (assuming she didn't already know since an army popped out of thin air to besiege Tar Valon)?

[Vardar]

I cited Gareth Bryne's reaction to "Elaida has Traveling." What did Elaida do when she found out that the rebels have Traveling (assuming she didn't already know since an army popped out of thin air to besiege Tar Valon)?

 

Tried to ignore it I assume. Refused to believe. But at the end, once she believed it, she was secure in her knowledge that the rebels wouldn't travel directly inside the city because they didn't want it to come to AS killing AS. She kinda held the cards in that situation. The rebels wanted the tower whole., and if AS killed AS, they would forever be torn apart, She really didn't give a damn (At least thats how I read her, I mean she disbanded the blue) so she thought she was safe.

 

Not sure how she kept it from all the other sisters, I mean you're right the army did appear right there. They can't all be that stupid can they?

[TristanWebb]

They appeared in the middle of winter. There was a lot of 'seemingly out of nowhere' talk in the tower, but they still assumed the marched up under the cover of snow rather than travelled.

[Vardar]

They appeared in the middle of winter. There was a lot of 'seemingly out of nowhere' talk in the tower, but they still assumed the marched up under the cover of snow rather than travelled.

 

Yea that part always bothered me, I mean they all have spies out there, so they should have know their approximate position. Maybe they are kinda stupid.

[TristanWebb]

You have to give them a little credit. When you see a magician levitate, you assume he is doing an awesome trick, not that he is actually defying gravity. From our perspective yes, they were stupid for not knowing about traveling, from theirs assuming something that had been lost for three thousand years being found just in time for a siege is ridiculous.

 

Though, with the suspicions going through the tower and the knowledge that the forsaken are loose, I don't see why they didn't assume on the first day that they were all black and the Forsaken brought them there.

[Vardar]

You have to give them a little credit. When you see a magician levitate, you assume he is doing an awesome trick, not that he is actually defying gravity. From our perspective yes, they were stupid for not knowing about traveling, from theirs assuming something that had been lost for three thousand years being found just in time for a siege is ridiculous.

 

Though, with the suspicions going through the tower and the knowledge that the forsaken are loose, I don't see why they didn't assume on the first day that they were all black and the Forsaken brought them there.

 

Good point. But I mean, if you talk to your best friend in California at 8am, and at 9am he's in the East Coast with you, at some point you have to assume something is going on right? They tracked the army, I mean someone had to put 2 and 2 together. Although that still doesn't prepare them for someone else attacking the tower. The AS just ignore a lot.

 

Even lost for 3000 years, they all knew it was possible, I'm stlll confused as to how it was lost in the first place (Besides the fact that it's good for the series). Everyone suddenly forgot to pass it on during the chaos of the breaking? Seems like Traveling would be something that would be used everyday!

[Maleshub]

Didn't the Tower Aes Sedai ask Egwene to teach them the Traveling Weave?

 

Regardless of the above question, I think that "dumbing" the Aes Sedai in this matter is misleading. We have evidence in the books in the issue of collecting the WT tribute that informed both sides that the other side has Traveling. In addition, Egwene's army Traveled within sight of Tar Valon. The WT was on the lookout for the army marching to besiege the Tower. The WT has its spies. A few simple inquiries after the siege starts would inform the WT that the army didn't march; but Traveled.

 

And we also have Tarna's visit to Salidar. Do you think that she failed to notice or hear about the Traveling grounds there? And why wouldn't Alviarin warn Elaida and the Hall that the rebels have Traveling?

 

There are so many avenues by which the WT would know that the rebels have Traveling; and to ignore them is just misleading.

[shortkut]

Traveling probably wasn't passed on because the breaking literally changed the world. They didn't know where they were going and stopped using it. In time it was forgotten

[Maleshub]

Traveling probably wasn't passed on because the breaking literally changed the world. They didn't know where they were going and stopped using it. In time it was forgotten

 

+1

[Knivy]

People still moved between two areas frequently, which is essential for a society like the White Tower to exist. My personal opinion is a extreme decrease in strength in the power of AS, below the level required for traveling, caused by having all male channelers stilled/killed.

[Luckers]

People still moved between two areas frequently, which is essential for a society like the White Tower to exist. My personal opinion is a extreme decrease in strength in the power of AS, below the level required for traveling, caused by having all male channelers stilled/killed.

 

No, there wasn't such a strength decrease during the Breaking--or since for that matter. The percentages of channelers over all has gone down over time, but strength was never affected. The White Tower lack is a combination result of their own stupid recruiting practices, the general decline of Westland population, and the over all decline in channelers, but none of that occurred within a time-scape that would have made any difference to the knowledge of Travelling being lost during the Breaking.

 

 

That being said, given the hostile state of the Breaking in general, and the fact that any true Aes Sedai would be doing her best to take on male channelers and Darkfriends, the death rate was bound to be high (we know no Aes Sedai lived all the way through the breaking). Given that, the likely reason Travelling was lost, along with the more complex form of Healing, all ties back to the same simple reason... girls would not have progressed far enough in their training to master such complex weaves before their teachers died. Oh, the knowledge would have persisted for a while, perhaps even surviving several generations of Aes Sedai during the breaking, but the high fatality rate would have made the damage to the knowledge of more complex weaves systematic.

[Aiel Heart]

I'm not sure what will result of this charge. The wolves might come and help (we haven't heard too much from them lately but they were gathering), there might be some miraculous rescue via traveling, I'm not sure--but he HAS to live he just HAS to!!!!!!!

[MasterAblar]

And we also have Tarna's visit to Salidar. Do you think that she failed to notice or hear about the Traveling grounds there?

 

Tarna left before Egwene returned, and therefore before traveling was rediscovered.

[Orderofolde]

if he didnt charge the trollocs will have passed tarwins gap and destroyed the borderlands and invaded the rest of the lands

 

The Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap is aimed at Sheinar. The estimate is 150K shadowspawn; and the estimate is that the there are about 50K troops defending Sheinar other than Lan's army (12K troops).

 

There is probably a shadowspawn army of similar size attacking Arafel and Kandor. The army that Rand broke in Maradon probably was over 200K shadowspawn since the Shadow was forced to bring reinforcements.

Those are just the people waiting ahead of Lan that he blundered into that he has with him. What of those he avoided and left behind? I suspect that horn calls will abound and Malkieri will charge, Malkier-blooded Aes Sedai and their warders will step out of gateways with the OP flying, Ogier with long axes will charge down from the Mountains, and in all that awesomeness Rand will appear for his friend while old Thom Merrilin juggles and tells the tale of Mara and the Three Foolish Kings in High Chant.

[Maleshub]

And we also have Tarna's visit to Salidar. Do you think that she failed to notice or hear about the Traveling grounds there?

 

Tarna left before Egwene returned, and therefore before traveling was rediscovered.

 

Thanks for the correction :) That takes Tarna out of the argument ;)

[Sasha Grayes]

Lan's charge is probably a distraction. Lan knows this and probably has discussed this with Rand offscreen.

[Maleshub]

Lan's charge is probably a distraction. Lan knows this and probably has discussed this with Rand offscreen.

 

Unless that discussion took place in the last month (post-VoG), it doesn't seem to have happened at all. Rand was surprised that Lan left; and he refused to send help during "Dark Rand" days.

 

As to it being a distraction, I lean towards thinking it isn't. Lan's charge, so far, has stalled the Shadow's invasion of Shienar. In the three other Borderland kingdoms, the Shadow attacked armies in defensive position. In Shienar, Lan is leading the only army of the Light on the attack; which should surprise the Dreadlords and hinder their plans (if aid arrives to Lan in time).

 

Lan's army is to the Light what the Shadowspawn army in Caemlyn is to the Shadow .... a surprise attack.

[bsmnt23]

(the topic of lost talents and such should probably be a new thread entirly, it's pretty big diversion from the main topic, just my 2 cents)

\

The WoT provides three diferent examples of how people reacted to the Breaking and reconstruction. The White Book gives us the isle of the Madmen where supposedly society never recovered and is stuck in a perpetual Breaking loop; we'll probably never see it in the story so it doesnt matter. Randland is where civilization rose again, the channelers banding together to strengthen the whole and enjoy an unprecidented level of authority. On the Suanchan continent we only have second-hand infomation and that from a society in which the historical records are slightly suspisious, but apparently societly recovered arround individual Aes Sedai who used their power for personal gain, who viewed other Aes Sedai as a threat to their personal power and who guarded their secrets jealously, to the point where apprentaces were tought only enough to be usefull and not a threat to the Aes Sedai. Very similiar to the wizards of ther Conan universe which RJ was also very talented at writing. I think the Suanchan approach was probably very common during the 300-400 years of the Breaking.

 

The Aes Sedai of the War of the Shadow and the survivors of the Breaking were not like the contemporary Aes Sedai. There was no unilateral authority once the Breaking started and society crumbled. The monolithical monument of the White Tower is more than just where the Aes Sedai omodern times dwell, its also a symbol of their power and their unity (mentioned often enough when that unity is shattered from within). Their recruiting policy aside, membership to the society of Aes Sedai imarts training and indoctrionation which is then used to foster and preserve the society as a whole. The Aes Sedai of the breaking had nothing even remotely like that, they were in the same boat as the rest of the world in that they, too, were concerned more about day-to-day survivial.

 

The White Book and WoTwiki describe the initial construction of the White Tower and the meeting of the varius groups calling themselves Aes Sedai in the old fassion. The seperate groups of channelers alied with each other and shall we say "strongly encouraged" other less powerfull groups to either join or disband; a policy that still exists. The construction of the Tower itself is supposed to be the offficial end of the Breaking, and that establishes the great shift in channeler culture in that they as a unified group could be far more powerful than as individuals. This is a huge change from durring the Breaking when the last generation of fully trained Aes Sedai fromt he AoL were either dead and the few mostly-trained apprentaces were left to figure out how to carry on. Contemporary Aes Sedai are strongly cautioned to never experiment with the power or to fool arround with terangreal; this is not something you enforce in a fully trained innitiate, secure in their power. These are warnings passed down from the first teachers durring the breaking because they themselves were only barely trained. And we do know how Aes Sedai like to maintain tradition and The Rules.