Official AMOL Cover Art (Spoilers)

[Random Man]

This is super cool. I do think that Elayne would probably have the dull-knife ter'angreal on her person -- considering that's the only reason Aviendha left it behind -- so Rand might get it from her (especially if she knew where he was going).

 

Also, it's interesting to note that the eclipse only made it into the last version Whelan made, while two early sketches show the sun. What that means, I couldn't say. I do still think it's a stretch to say the eclipse has nothing to do with "twice dawns the day".

 

I still think it's a stretch to say that eclipse = dawn. A very huge stretch. I saw several versions of the cover at JCon, including some of the ones posted on Tor, and none of the other ones had an eclipse. It seems a strange detail for Brandon to have left out of the original scene description, don't you think? Anyway, I'm not surprised there's an eclipse; I think I had this discussion with sleepinghour at one point, and I told her that I can see all sorts of reasons to throw an eclipse into the mix, but that I simply don't think it will fulfill the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy.

Why don't you think so? The concept of "twice dawns the day" meaning an eclipse was a popular theory from way back in the day. It would also hold well with the Messianic aspect of Rand (i.e. an eclipse occurring at Jesus' crucifixion).

[Terez]

This is super cool. I do think that Elayne would probably have the dull-knife ter'angreal on her person -- considering that's the only reason Aviendha left it behind -- so Rand might get it from her (especially if she knew where he was going).

 

Also, it's interesting to note that the eclipse only made it into the last version Whelan made, while two early sketches show the sun. What that means, I couldn't say. I do still think it's a stretch to say the eclipse has nothing to do with "twice dawns the day".

 

I still think it's a stretch to say that eclipse = dawn. A very huge stretch. I saw several versions of the cover at JCon, including some of the ones posted on Tor, and none of the other ones had an eclipse. It seems a strange detail for Brandon to have left out of the original scene description, don't you think? Anyway, I'm not surprised there's an eclipse; I think I had this discussion with sleepinghour at one point, and I told her that I can see all sorts of reasons to throw an eclipse into the mix, but that I simply don't think it will fulfill the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy.

Why don't you think so? The concept of "twice dawns the day" meaning an eclipse was a popular theory from way back in the day.

 

Yes, I know. I've never thought it was a satisfactory explanation, and still don't.

 

It would also hold well with the Messianic aspect of Rand (i.e. an eclipse occurring at Jesus' crucifixion).

That has nothing to do with the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Yes, I know. I've never thought it was a satisfactory explanation, and still don't.

 

It would also hold well with the Messianic aspect of Rand (i.e. an eclipse occurring at Jesus' crucifixion).

That has nothing to do with the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy.

 

Heh, I agree with you on the first point. Even though I do think this is what it means, it seems kinda...disappointing for an eclipse to be the reason for it.

 

What then are the other possibilities for an eclipse, right when Rand is at the Pit of Doom?

 

One I mentioned was an effect of the DO unravelling the Pattern, and it isn't an actual eclipse in our sense of the word (moon/sun)

Not saying there are not possibilities, but I am genuinely curious to know.

 

 

And why is the Jesus parallel so easily dismissed? It fits with both Rand, and would fulfil the prophecy. Apart from the fact that you obviously don't think so, is there any reason why it has no relevancy?

[Terez]

I think you are misunderstanding my arguments. I have no problem with an eclipse being significant to the plot. I only have a problem with it pretending to fulfill the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think you are misunderstanding my arguments. I have no problem with an eclipse being significant to the plot. I only have a problem with it pretending to fulfill the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy.

 

Yet you still don't answer the questions....

 

I am trying to understand why, other than just "I don't like it."

 

You keep saying it doesn't fit, but never actually answer why.

 

Edit: which is fine, I am not saying it isn't. Just that I was wondering what makes it so untrue?

 

Eh, I hate not having (voice)tone in writing, sorry about it "sounding" like I am being an ass.

[Terez]

Because 'dawn' means the sun coming over the horizon. Not reemerging from behind the moon.

[Random Man]

You all type too fast. I've been trying to reply for a bit.

 

Terez, the Westlands have pre-rennaisance understanding of the cosmos, so an eclipse could hardly fail but be considered a mystical event; additionally, as I said, there is a Jesus parallel.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Fair enough, a valid reason.

 

Although I would hardly say it is big evidence.

 

Random Man beat me to it, what he said.

 

Along with the Karatheon cycle is almost never scientifically accurate.

 

It frequently hides the meaning in metaphor and twisting of words.

 

But I will say that the point is fair enough. That's all I wanted to know! Thanks.

 

edit: In fact, despite my claims earlier, I do actually think it is a big possibility that it is not so clear cut. It just fits so easily. (Which, you could say, its exactly why it is wrong )

[Terez]

You all type too fast. I've been trying to reply for a bit.

 

Terez, the Westlands have pre-rennaisance understanding of the cosmos, so an eclipse could hardly fail but be considered a mystical event; additionally, as I said, there is a Jesus parallel.

 

Their understanding of the cosmos, whatever it might be, has no bearing on the wording of a prophecy, and I think you might actually be underestimating their understanding. And why do you keep bringing up the Jesus parallel? It still has nothing to do with the definition of the word 'dawn'.

 

Fair enough, a valid reason.

 

Although I would hardly say it is big evidence.

 

The definition of the word is not 'big evidence'? That's like the meaning of 'is'.

 

Along with the Karatheon cycle is almost never scientifically accurate.

 

You might want to give an example here.

[Random Man]

despite my claims earlier, I do actually think it is a big possibility that it is not so clear cut. It just fits so easily. (Which, you could say, its exactly why it is wrong )

I have a feeling we're all going to be wrong about some things. The prestige of RJ's final trick, so to speak!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Along with the Karatheon cycle is almost never scientifically accurate.

 

You might want to give an example here.

 

 

and the fires of heaven purge the earth.

 

Not literal, unless it hasn't happened yet. I don't exactly remember fires purging the world.

 

and shatter the world again with his coming

 

This is metaphorical, he didn't shatter the world. At least, I can't remember any large earthquakes or splitting of the world.

 

In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people,

 

Rand never clothed anyone in anything. It again, is metaphorical.

 

 

Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love

 

I am quite sure that it is impossible to have a heart of real stone, or a soul of literal fire.

 

 

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,

and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

 

There was no "plow", and there is no real fire in his eyes. Metaphorical.

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky

 

Fortune = Tuon.

 

Fox and raven not literal, but again a metaphor.

 

Luck cannot be a soul, nor lighting, his eye.

 

And Mat never physically snatched Tuon out of the sky.

 

There is more, but these should be sufficient enough for the point.

 

Why would the scientific constitiution of "dawn" suddenly be important. Not that it isn't, but it is not like the rest of the Cycle has been scientifically accurate, as said.

 

I am genuinely confused here, I thought it was the most common aspect of prophecy. Unless you are trolling me, or being sarcastic, in which case, well played.

[fikkie77]

Because 'dawn' means the sun coming over the horizon. Not reemerging from behind the moon.

Wrong!

That´s the definition in our time!

 

Dawn could as well mean the appearing of the sun after darkness. That´s usually appearing at the horizon after night, but could also mean appearing after the darkness of a solar eclips. I´ve experienced a full solar eclipse (Northern France, near Reims August 11, 1999), which was truly an astonishing experience. The extreme darkness in those minutes makes calling the reappearing the light 'dawn' plausible if you don't know what an eclips is.

I find it totally plausible that the seer writing down this prophecy called this phenomenon 'dawn' and thus the second dawn on the day that the Dragon's blood was going to be spilt.

[Random Man]

You all type too fast. I've been trying to reply for a bit.

 

Terez, the Westlands have pre-rennaisance understanding of the cosmos, so an eclipse could hardly fail but be considered a mystical event; additionally, as I said, there is a Jesus parallel.

 

Their understanding of the cosmos, whatever it might be, has no bearing on the wording of a prophecy, and I think you might actually be underestimating their understanding. And why do you keep bringing up the Jesus parallel? It still has nothing to do with the definition of the word 'dawn'.

 

I'm bringing up the Jesus parallel in connection with the elcipse because RJ had the ending in mind from the very start; he had Rand in mind as a messianic figure from the get-go, so an eclipse at his death would make sense. Also in the field of astronomical science we are only getting to the re-invention of the telescope and Kin Tovre is alone at this point of making a serious study of astronomy. He is a historical parallel to Galilleo and his contemporaries. Prior to the explosion of the science of astronomy, meteors, eclipses and other astronomical phenomena were considered to be supernatural in their origin.

 

Not saying the sun emerging from the eclipse fits our current definition of the word "dawn." It certainly could fit a pre-modern understanding from a prophecy wrapped in metaphor. I mean, Rand doesn't literally make mountains kneel to him, and "the three become one" probably doesn't literally mean three of anything merge into one being. (Heck, the foremost minds of the time thought it meant three nations, which was quite an extrapolation there).

 

EDIT: "Emerging" sorry my keyboard keeps getting stuck.

[Terez]

Along with the Karatheon cycle is almost never scientifically accurate.

 

You might want to give an example here.

 

 

and the fires of heaven purge the earth.

 

Not literal, unless it hasn't happened yet. I don't exactly remember fires purging the world.

 

Actually, this is as literal as it gets. What are the fires of heaven? Well, since there's no 'heaven' as we commonly perceive it in Randland (or no concept of 'heaven' in that sense), then we're talking about the heavens. The fire of heaven is therefore the sun. And what was happening in TFOH? The sun was baking the hell out of everyone.

 

and shatter the world again with his coming

 

This is metaphorical, he didn't shatter the world. At least, I can't remember any large earthquakes or splitting of the world.

 

The semantics are more vague in this sense, so there's room for various literal interpretations. That's the case in a lot of prophecies. Keep in mind even Thom, who knows the prophecies better than most, and perceives the language intricacies better than most, thought that the prophecy presented an impossibility. The resolution of the supposed impossibility in the Stone prophecies was, for all Thom missed it, quite literal. It wasn't a play on words.

 

Another thing I have argued in the past is that the presentation of such 'impossibilities'—puzzles for the reader to figure out—essentially requires a literal interpretation from a literary perspective. Otherwise it's cheating the reader. It may be that RJ actually planned for an eclipse to fulfill the prophecy, and in that case I'll still call it cheap. The eclipse idea was always the obvious 'solution', but I've never quite felt it was the right one.

[TootThatHorn]

oh please dont get me wrong cause i enjoy reading your posts, and i have fancied the possibility of what an eclipse could mean as far as the prophecies, its just something that i have a hard time picturing in my head so its one of the things that i RAFO myself on that and the symbology i pointed out sounded really neat in my head lol there is a spiritual sense you can gather with an eclipse and this eternal fight of light vs dark/good vs evil

 

edit: and the part of "in the pit of doom shall his blood free men from the shadow" is what prompted me to look at his shirt on the new cover, where i commented earlier that i swear i saw a lil blood on his shirt but its hard to tell, i feel like he may be going in there already bleeding and ready to do what must be done

 

Haha, sorry, I didn't mean to say that the symbology is stupid. I just thought it was really cheesy The idea itself is good, but putting it in an actual scene?

 

Ahh, nice one, I didn't pick the blood up, I will have to go back and have a look!

 

Edit: It does look like there is a bit of blood there, too vague for me to say though. It does fit with the scene though

 

the blood thing is so minute im not sure if my eyes are seein things lol i cant wait for this book, part of what made me sad about the series ending is that i thought these forums would end, but then i realized i knew better and even when WoT ended, the wheel would turn and the forum would have more to discuss, and celebrate!!! (so cheesy i know lol)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Another thing I have argued in the past is that the presentation of such 'impossibilities'—puzzles for the reader to figure out—essentially requires a literal interpretation from a literary perspective. Otherwise it's cheating the reader. It may be that RJ actually planned for an eclipse to fulfill the prophecy, and in that case I'll still call it cheap. The eclipse idea was always the obvious 'solution', but I've never quite felt it was the right one.

 

I agree with the cheapness, I think it is a pretty cheezy and obvious solution, but I disagree that it requires a literal interpretation on ALL accounts. I am not saying that such puzzles don't exist, becuase I believe they do, just that whether this is one or not, is not certain, as we have non-literal passages within the text, and I don't believe anyone can comment with any certainty what RJ meant or did not mean in regards to the prophecies, unless he has stated so somewhere?. (Although, I do like your theory, I must admit, even if it doesn't do well for my argument )

 

But yes, I understand what you mean, and fair enough. It would certainly be more intriguing if it wasn't the obvious "eclipse", I just think it fits the bill too much for it to be coincidence.

 

 

@TootThatHorn

 

Yeah, I think we all have similar feelings, cheezy as they may be. There will always be discussions to be had about the Wheel, probably about the interpretation of what actually happens in aMoL aswell. And don't forget, about a year after we get the "encyclopaedia" which will keep us going with little pieces of info for a while !

[TootThatHorn]

for sure, im drawing in on having waited 20 years for this series to reach its climax, and one thought that makes me chuckle, especially when i see the eclipse part get mentioned, is that i feel like the whole time i read aMoL im gonna think "wow i read that theory" lol somebodys somewheres has speculated each part of this book i swear lol so it will be fun to see it come to fruition

[Random Man]

I don't see the eclipse, or dawning, as foretold as a puzzle or problem, or an event in itself. Instead I see it as being a sign to the world of Things That Are Happening This Day.

[FarShainMael]

Leaving aside the possible poetic interpretations of a day dawning..

 

Not saying the sun emerging from the eclipse fits our current definition of the word "dawn."

 

It does if you're standing on the moon near the terminator there....

 

Sorry, couldn't resist

[Barid Bel Medar]

for sure, im drawing in on having waited 20 years for this series to reach its climax, and one thought that makes me chuckle, especially when i see the eclipse part get mentioned, is that i feel like the whole time i read aMoL im gonna think "wow i read that theory" lol somebodys somewheres has speculated each part of this book i swear lol so it will be fun to see it come to fruition

 

haha yeah, I can see me reading it and thinking. Damn! So-and-so was right! Or, yes! I was right! Or, Crap! I look like an idiot for being so certain about this! (most probably more of the last)

[fionwe1987]

Terez: But what if this is an unnatural eclipse, fixed by the Dark One. Then, the earth could rotate several times before the eclipse is lifted just before the sun again rises in the east, thus giving us a second "dawn".

[TristanWebb]

I agree that a minute long eclipse couldn't be called a dawning, but bathe the world in darkness from say 9am-4pm then the eclipse stops, that is 7 hours, long enough to call a night but with enough sun on either side for people to know it is still the same day.

[Terez]

Because 'dawn' means the sun coming over the horizon. Not reemerging from behind the moon.

Wrong!

That´s the definition in our time!

 

It's the definition in Randland too.

 

There are some other factors that you guys might not have considered, in the context of what the two covers together (both quite spoilery) actually reveal. For one, the sun was out for 3 hours when Jesus died. At first I figured that meant Rand would only be dead for 3 hours, but the indication is that he'll be dead for 3 days like Jesus was. We have offhand comments that Nynaeve would not be happy until she healed someone three days dead, and Norry saying he would not believe Rand was dead until he'd sat with the body for three days. Then we have heavy Boann/Dagda foreshadowing tied up with the Healing of Rand's death (done by Nynaeve), suggesting that the sun will actually be stopped and that Elayne will actually manage to have her babies before the end, which might require her to go to Tel'aran'rhiod, where time flows differently (never backwards, but that's fortunately irrelevant in this case). Then we've got foreshadowing that Gawyn will betray someone 'as darkness fits the sun'. Now, that in itself might happen during the eclipse (they don't last incredibly long), but how is Elayne supposed to have her babies in the meantime? The second dawn is for birth. The only credible reason for Elayne to go to Tel'aran'rhiod to speed up her pregnancy is...to keep her safe because she's pregnant? She's not going to be doing any fighting there, or at least it seems unlikely. So beyond that, the only good reason is to find Rand after he dies. She might be able to help Nynaeve with that; they've used Need together before.

 

For those of you who haven't heard my theory on it before, I've argued that it could be fulfilled if Rand were balefired, seeing as how he is one with the land. It's the only way I could think of for a literal twice-dawning day to happen in a way that is properly foreshadowed. The legend of Boann and the Dagda offers some mythological justification for stretching the meaning of 'day', but it's also suggestive of a difference in perception for Elayne and the rest of the world. The 'three days' thing further confuses the issue.

 

I'd be tempted to say that 'for birth' referred to Rand except for the fact that Calian and Shivan are supposed to herald the new age with their birth. It's all too pat to ignore. I'm just saying, it seems like the eclipse would solve all the little prophetic problems, but I don't think it's quite that simple.

[FarShainMael]

That legend, of Boann and the Dagda, in which a nine-month pregnancy is completed in the Underworld to appear in the real world as having only taken a day, is a neat idea for what has to happen to Elayne to complete her pregnancy in time for the possibly heralds of the Next Age to be born in time.

 

(I'm seriously summarising it here.)

[Terez]

Here's a blown-up version for more detail