Defection by Forsaken

[dazparra]

I am very dissapointed that we will not be seeing any defection by the forsaken back to the light.

I had hoped to see such, and Asmodean i guess went close, but apart from Semirhage who had been showing signs of figuring out the Great Lord was using them none of the other forsaken seem to have figured this out and we see from Moridins point of view that all of the other forsaken are fools who still believe in the belief of grand rewards through the eternities.

In particular Grandeal and Demandred are much too self interested and still dream of becoming Naeblis.

The other fosaken are now all dead or directly under Moridins rule and unable to really plan or do anything of their own.

Perhaps Rand will rescue Lanfear (Cyndane) and she will turn back to the light.

 

I am also interested to learn more of the suprising knowledge that Lanfear is meant to have (even Moridin who has squeezed Cyndane for information comments at one point at the suprising knowledge that Lanfear possesses)

[Seeker]

I am very dissapointed that we will not be seeing any defection by the forsaken back to the light.

 

We don't know that we won't.

[FarShainMael]

In particular, we have not yet seen what effect VoG has had on Moridin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

All of the Forsaken have reasons to possibly turn back to the Light in aMoL.

 

The biggest of all would be if any of the others actually found out what the Dark One was really planning.

 

Graendal: Just been punished by SH, she was thinking of escaping to a mirror world before he turned up.

 

Demandred: Only wants to kill Rand, several times we have Forsaken musing about Demandred's loyalty to the DO. And Demandred himself isn't too keen on using Balefire.

 

Moridin: Most unlikely to turn back, but still an option. As FSM says, unsure of the effects of VoG on him, and if Rand can out-logic him and prove that existence IS worth the effort, he could turn back.

 

Lanfear: Mindtrapped and potentially being tortured, and several times she has proved her weak faith to the DO.

 

Moggy: She is a coward and mindtrapped. She would do anything to survive.

 

Not that any of these are really likely to turn back, just that all have possible reasons if the right scenario were to come along, their faith would be in question.

[RandA lThor]

Demandred and Graendal I think are completely beyond hope. Moridin can be beaten with logic and his link to Rand, Lanfear because of the pain she is in and because she loves the Dragon Reborn and if she can get enough power in this world she will like it. Moghedien would not truly turn, she would do it to survive. If there was a hint of a revolution coming again, she would go back to join it to be in better eyes again.

[bigdoug1971]

I don't want to see any of them return to the light. They are EVIL. Parents have threatened their kids with them for years. They've all betrayed the Light and commited severe crimes against innocent people over the years. And basically, what's in it for them to return to the light? Forgiveness? New friends? Who in their right mind would welcome any of them back to the Light? And how could they possible accomplish this feat?

 

Unless they return to the Light just for their own piece of mind, there's nothing in it for any of them. Anyone that found out who the person was would never trust, befriend, or forgive someone of their status with the Shadow. They can claim their allegiance to the Light all they want but the fact is this: Nothing they could do would ever clear their crimes. They would face execution from anywhere they went. So what would be the point?

[rand4747]

The only way to turn back to the light is to die defending it. Ingtar or Verin for example. Although Verin never intended to be a darkfriend joining the Black Ajah made her so still. I suspect even if she had re swore the old oaths the dark one still has some sort of hook, just like he does with other dark friends. They can be found somehow.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Going back to the Light doesn't require anyone's consent.

 

Anyone can turn back and help the Light, no matter if people are willing to forgive them or not.

 

All it requires is for them to abandon the DO and fight against him.

[Roxinos]

All it requires is for them to abandon the DO and fight against him.

 

Not really, actually.

 

Is Mordeth evil?

 

Without a doubt, actually.

 

Does it surprise you to hear that the evil of Mordeth was created to combat the evil of the Shadow?

 

The evil which consumed and destroyed Aridhol hates the Shadow. But does it fight for the Light? Nope, it's evil. It hates the Light as much as it hates the Shadow.

 

Same thing with the Chosen. While any one of them may lose faith in the Shadow and relinquish their position in its ranks, does that mean they would join the Light? Even if they started fighting with the Light, they have only forsaken the Shadow and the Light. But they are still evil.

 

The Chosen will never be good. They will always be evil. The Shadow is one type of evil.

[baalsmistress]

Evil is a point of view of course.

 

Generally it's a label applied to people that have little overlap with the labeller's moral code.

[Arath Faringal]

Considering that Lanfear and Moghidien are both mindtrapped, and Graendal is likely about to suffer the same fate, I doubt any of them will be returning to the light. Moggy may be do whatever it takes to survive, but right now that means making sure she doesn't anger whoever is holding her mindtrap. Someone sneezing wrong while handling the thing could be fatal to her. Any of them betraying the Shadow is unlikely. For more than the time it takes Moridin to find out anyway.

 

Demandred ... not likely. I really don't think he's been hidin for this many books, only to show up as a good guy in the end. Lamest. Forsaken. Evah.

[Roxinos]

Evil is a point of view of course.

 

Generally it's a label applied to people that have little overlap with the labeller's moral code.

 

Evil isn't just a point of view in tWoT. Case in point, Aridhol. The evil of the city consumed it. The evil was so strong it became a taint on the world. Evil can simply be a point of view. It can also be a force. And in the case of the Shadow, it's most definitely a force. And for people who are so deep in the Shadow as the Chosen, I don't think they can ever rid their souls of that taint (in this lifetime, of course). But I may be proven wrong by Cyndane. We'll see.

[Luthien]

All of the Forsaken have reasons to possibly turn back to the Light in aMoL.

 

The biggest of all would be if any of the others actually found out what the Dark One was really planning.

 

Graendal: Just been punished by SH, she was thinking of escaping to a mirror world before he turned up.

 

Demandred: Only wants to kill Rand, several times we have Forsaken musing about Demandred's loyalty to the DO. And Demandred himself isn't too keen on using Balefire.

 

Moridin: Most unlikely to turn back, but still an option. As FSM says, unsure of the effects of VoG on him, and if Rand can out-logic him and prove that existence IS worth the effort, he could turn back.

 

Lanfear: Mindtrapped and potentially being tortured, and several times she has proved her weak faith to the DO.

 

Moggy: She is a coward and mindtrapped. She would do anything to survive.

 

Not that any of these are really likely to turn back, just that all have possible reasons if the right scenario were to come along, their faith would be in question.

Would any of these actually be reasons to turn back to the Light? Or would it be more like the punished Forsaken wanted to remain their selfish, evil selves but without having to fear the Dark One's punishment? I'm not sure abandoning the Dark One and fighting against him would be enough to declare someone redeemed - I think any former Forsaken would have to change in a more fundamental way that just jumping ship. Maybe by putting someone else's interests above his/her own, sacrificing him or herself, and going out in a blaze of glory?

 

On a related note, is anyone else suspicious that Cyndane is Tempting Rand, and that she is the one Shaidar Haran is referring to that now has the opportunity to bring down Rand? I imagine SH wouldn't scruple to pain her to lend verisimilitude to her pleas, but it seems like such a set-up, especially with the way Rand describes his desire.

[Barid Bel Medar]

All it requires is for them to abandon the DO and fight against him.

 

Not really, actually.

 

Is Mordeth evil?

 

Without a doubt, actually.

 

Does it surprise you to hear that the evil of Mordeth was created to combat the evil of the Shadow?

 

The evil which consumed and destroyed Aridhol hates the Shadow. But does it fight for the Light? Nope, it's evil. It hates the Light as much as it hates the Shadow.

 

Same thing with the Chosen. While any one of them may lose faith in the Shadow and relinquish their position in its ranks, does that mean they would join the Light? Even if they started fighting with the Light, they have only forsaken the Shadow and the Light. But they are still evil.

 

The Chosen will never be good. They will always be evil. The Shadow is one type of evil.

 

See, this is where I disagree. Light v Shadow is not good v evil.

 

Light v Shadow is a struggle to avoid the destruction of the Pattern.

 

Evil has nothing to do with it. Those that follow the Shadow, especially the Forsaken can be said to be evil, no doubt. But Light is not synonymous with "good". You're example of Mordeth proves that point exactly. It is a different kind of evil. But it still fights for the Light. Fain/Mordeth does not hate the Light. He hates Rand, Mat and Perrin because of the DO. And Mordeth hates the DO. He is insane, but he does not work against the Light, not consciously. It is only because Rand is the Dragon Reborn that Fain looks to be fighting against the Light. But he isn't trying to kill the Dragon Reborn. He is trying to kill Rand al'Thor the person, because he was the reason the DO changed him. Mordeth works against the Shadow, even if the evil corrupts everything. It is still the opposition of the DO.

 

Evil is a subjective term and has no relation between the Light and Shadow. The Savannah and Thevera can be called evil. They were tricked by the Forsaken, but they were still on the Light side. The Seanchan can be considered evil, but they fight for the Light. The Whitecloaks could certainly be considered evil, their practises, but they did it in the name of the Light.

 

The Light is not "good' is the point. Anyone who opposes the destruction of the Pattern by the DO is of the Light. Evil has no bearing on the Light v Shadow.

 

All that is needed to turn back to the Light is to betray the DO and fight against him. You switch from the Shadow to the Light. And evil, tainted Light perhaps, but Light side nonetheless.

 

Whether they are still evil has no bearing. If they are forgiven is beside the point. The "Light" is a fictitious name used to describe those who fight against the Dark One.

[DaoineSidhe]

I think the only two Forsaken who could possibly turn against the Shadow are either Moridin or Lanfear. First, both of these characters have a personal relationship with Rand. These two have conversed extensively with him, and could be open to his persuasion, especially post-epiphany. Each also has their own individual reasons for possibly turning:

 

-Moridin: Weird link with Rand could have many as of yet unknown effects on him, as was stated earlier. In addition, I think the most recent conversation between Rand and Moridin in the dream state gave us a good look into Moridin's reasons for joining the Shadow. And End. Now, if Rand were to somehow break the Wheel without destroying the world, possibly creating Linear time, then I could see Moridin possibly switching sides. This would allow Moridin to stop playing the same role over and over again; effectively giving him the End he desires.

 

-Lanfear: Love/Hate relationship with Rand. Especially if she is in trouble, and Rand somehow saves her, she is fickle enough that she could switch from hate to love again, I think. I also think that she may have some very important information on how to seal the Bore, considering she was in on causing it. If this is the case, it does provide a very strong literary reason for her to turn, if not so much of a reason for her personality wise.

 

I have to agree with Arath Farangal in that if Demandred turns at this point, after doing nothing at all, he really would be the Lamest Forsaken Eva.

[Roxinos]

Evil has nothing to do with it. Those that follow the Shadow, especially the Forsaken can be said to be evil, no doubt. But Light is not synonymous with "good".

 

I don't see how it isn't. "Good" does not imply you're of the Light. But being under the Light implies you are good. Just as being evil does not imply you follow the Shadow. But following the Shadow implies you are evil.

 

You're example of Mordeth proves that point exactly. It is a different kind of evil. But it still fights for the Light.

 

Mordeth does not fight for the Light in the slightest. The origins of the evil that consumed Aridhol were indeed good intentioned, but does that mean the evil of Aridhol is under the Light? Not at all. Mordeth fled the Light and involved himself in evil more and more deeply because he felt the power to destroy the Shadow lay there.

 

You cannot be evil and under the Light.

 

Fain/Mordeth does not hate the Light.

 

I admit to a bit of hyperbole on my part. I'll rescind that statement since we have no understanding of Mordeth's feelnigs on the Light. But the fact remains that he does not fight for anything but himself. I was mistaken in suggesting that he fights against the Light.

 

Evil is a subjective term and has no relation between the Light and Shadow.

 

Again, no it's not. Not in the world of tWoT. Evil is a power. It can consume you and transform you.

 

The Savannah and Thevera can be called evil.

 

I don't think either of them can be called evil. Both thought they were doing what was right. And Sevannah was being admittedly selfish. But selfishness alone is not evil.

 

Doing evil things does not make you evil.

 

Rand most certainly did plenty of evil things over time. That was a defining aspect of his character: his descent into darkness as time passed. But was Rand evil? Not until he stopped acting for the good of the world and started acting because he felt it was fate.

 

The Seanchan can be considered evil, but they fight for the Light.

 

I wouldn't say they could ever be considered evil as a people. And in the Wheel of Time, they most certainly are not evil. No one questions that. Ever. Because evil is not "you're selfish" or "you've done this bad thing." It's intention. It's desire. The Seanchan believe they are right in their actions. They believe what they're doing is good.

 

Evil in tWoT acknowledges it's evil. It never thinks that it's good.

 

The Whitecloaks could certainly be considered evil, their practises, but they did it in the name of the Light.

 

Same as above. Torturing someone is bad. Torturing someone is something evil people do. But they did it with good intentions.

 

There's that word again, "intentions." I said that Mordeth's destruction of Aridhol was done with good intentions. So how does that make him any different?

 

The difference is that Mordeth intentionally sought the darkness as a source of power to combat the Shadow. He acknowledged what he was doing was evil.

 

The Light is not "good' is the point. Anyone who opposes the destruction of the Pattern by the DO is of the Light. Evil has no bearing on the Light v Shadow.

 

I will repeat my previous statement:

 

The Light is good. Good is not the Light. The Shadow is evil. Evil is not the Shadow. Does good and evil have any bearing on the battle between the Light and the Shadow? Yes. Because the Light is a force for good and the Shadow is a force for evil.

 

All that is needed to turn back to the Light is to betray the DO and fight against him. You switch from the Shadow to the Light. And evil, tainted Light perhaps, but Light side nonetheless.

 

Sorry, but that directly contradicts Rand's thoughts with regard to Asmodean.

 

Asmodean was helping Rand. Did he ever turn back to the Light? No. He was not working for the Shadow, but he was not under the Light. And Rand expressly thought to himself that was the case. He needed to remind himself that Asmodean was still evil. And after hearing (or remembering) things Asmodean did for the Shadow, he realizes that Asmodean can never come back to the Light.

 

The "Light" is a fictitious name used to describe those who fight against the Dark One.

 

Except it doesn't just describe those who fight against the Dark One. It's a moral descriptor. It's so much more than just a line in the sand where you stand on one side or the other. The Light is a mutual religious belief. It's an assertion of order. It describes the content of your soul, of your character. Saying someone fights for the Light implies their intention is the same as that of the Light's (that is, order against chaos; creation against destruction as you put it). It's not just a semantic dispute. Saying someone fights "for the Light" is not the same as saying someone "fights against the Shadow."

 

Asmodean taught Rand. Effectively, he fought against the Shadow. But his intentions were not to help the Light. His intention was not to save the world. His intention was to save his own ass because he was cut away from the Shadow and knew he couldn't go back (if he could have, he would have). Mordeth's intentions were not to help the Light. His intention was not to save the world. His intention was to destroy the Shadow at any cost.

 

This is just a difference in opinion between you and I, Barid. I don't expect you to agree with me. I was just clarifying my position. Thanks for the discussion. :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

No problem. I accept your points.

 

I don't actually think you are wrong in any sense. I think it is a difference of interpretation of the Creator/DO and thus Light/Shadow.

 

I view Light v Shadow = Creator v DO. Or, creation (more specifically, preservation in this case) v destruction.

 

To me these two are not good and evil.

 

And don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the Forsaken are not evil, they most certainly are. (Although I don't know if you would get one of them to admit they were, apart from Moridin maybe )

 

In any case, it is as you said, a difference, and a discussion for somewhere else.

 

In your description of the Light, no, none of the Forsaken can turn back to the Light.

 

Appreciate the clarification.

[rand4747]

Aridhol forsook (gave up definition not abandon) the Light in their fight of the Shadow, they got lost and became almost as bad as the Shadow, but they didn't abandon the Light deliberately, they just changed in what they believed was the way to fight the shadow. (Some evil magic combined with their massive distrust or everything caused by it consumed them)

[Roxinos]

(Although I don't know if you would get one of them to admit they were, apart from Moridin maybe )

 

Hah. I think they're all perfectly aware of their own evilness. I mean, it kinda goes with the territory when your boss is the freaking Great Lord of the Dark. Haha.

[Sharaman]

We know that several of the Chosen started out as decent folks. Graendal, Demandred, Semirhage all did great deeds that brought benefits to people at large during the AoL. They deliberately went to the Darkside.

Ishamael also made a deliberate choice. He was a philosopher which means he grappled with the moral issues being debated above in this thread.

Of course they know they're evil - they embraced it deliberately, turning against the moral codes they had lived with for centuries.