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Dumb question is dumb - what is Dexterity


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pretend im 10 years :biggrin:

 

I just need to get this out of my mind, to get a clear view of how it works, it might be my non-native englsh brain which messes it up

 

when they talk of dezterity, that womans are more dexterious then men, i sort of know what the word means, or it have a meaning but i can't seem to think how that works on the power, how dexterity works with the power or how that is working comperad to the strength, if you had one character with full power in strenght with zero dexterity and a character with full dexterity and zero strength, how would that work out if its even possible

 

this is how i would to myself describe dexterity,

 

it is like cooking a complex dish where all the ingrediances must fit togehter, be ballanced agiainst eachother, not overpower eachoter, but stil enhance the full taste of the dish, like making a dow, or bread yuo want all things in the mix to make one good bread by measure it all closly and not have something overpowering the other,

 

i know how strenght is though, don't need to have that explained

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Think about normal physical skills, such as in sports, or in arts like sculpture or painting. Sculpture is probably best for this explanation. Say you want to carve a statue from a block of stone using a hammer and chisel; you not only need the strength to hit the chisel hard enough to knock off chips of stone, you need to use the right amount of strength so that you don't remove too much stone, and you need to place the chisel with care so that you remove the correct bit of stone. This combination of strength control and precision is what I would call dexterity. As it applies to making weaves, you would certainly need to control the amount of Earth, Fire, or whatever, and you would need to control how you interweave them.

 

In case your non-native english brain hasn't come across the word 'chisel', it's a tool with a wooden handle and a metal blade with a sharp edge at the end (not down its lenght like a knife). But if you already knew that, feel free to glare at me!

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I read this as a matter mainly of speed, a female channeler can form a weave of a certain complexity somewhat quicker than a man of the same relative strength in the Power can. This is bound to be a relative judgement, because saidin and saidar are different, so it could be that men have much greater dexterity in weaving, but that saidin is that much harder to control. You don't have people who can weave both, so judging things like dexterity has to be a relative thing, judging from the effects of the weave, or using saidin to feel out the saidar weave to judge its complexity, and vice versa

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I imagine it as the exact placements (relative to other threads in the weave), angles, tightness, and thicknesses of different threads. If a channeler doesn't have full hold and control over such things, then I think their weaves might not be as efficient. More power, but same effect ... Of course, speed in weaving and how able they are to moderate the effects appropriately might also be part of this (?).

 

It might be that strength is more important than dexterity for the very simplest of weaves, and that dexterity is more important than strength for the most complex ones. Maybe men can't perform Unweaving, either. Aiel women can ...

Edited by Nightstrike
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I read this as a matter mainly of speed, a female channeler can form a weave of a certain complexity somewhat quicker than a man of the same relative strength in the Power can. This is bound to be a relative judgement, because saidin and saidar are different, so it could be that men have much greater dexterity in weaving, but that saidin is that much harder to control. You don't have people who can weave both, so judging things like dexterity has to be a relative thing, judging from the effects of the weave, or using saidin to feel out the saidar weave to judge its complexity, and vice versa

actually you can compare it, and i suspect rj took that point of view. keep in mind that linked a man can weave saidar and a woman can weave saidin. personally i think the women having more dexterity with their weaves meaning that they can weave things faster, and create weaves with more complexity easier than men can. but as you implied it is pretty subjective because everyone is going to imagine the process of weaving the one power differently.

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I also imagine dexterity as being the ease with which one can weave more than one thing at a time. I've always thought it seemed like women multi-tasked better with OP. Sure, Rand's done like ten different things at once, but he was struggling. you look at Egwene, and she seems to split her weaves almost effortlessly.

 

I think that, whatever it means, the strength-dexterity balance DEFINITELY has a lot to do with the natures of saidar/saidin.

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Dexterity = ability to weave the threads IMO. I think there are lines where Moggy is doing compultion on Liandrin where she weaved it with amazing dexterity. So men can make huge ropes and women can make a fine tapestry, which seems to make sense to me.

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I am not sure that I would say speed is directly linked. I would say that dexterity here would = easier weaving. Metaphorically speaking I see the difference is that men weave in straight lines and angles, strong, simple and direct, women on the other hand weave in curves, bends and circles, more fluent and adaptable. With the simplicity of the men's technique, it becomes harder to weave more complex weaves, women on the other hand can shape the weaves easier.

 

Having said that, saidin and saidar are woven differently. So men's weaves would inherently be less complex, and on the other side of it, women's weaves would require less strength, because of the different techniques.

 

Example being Rand and Egwene having a little chat about Travelling.

 

Male version: "bend the pattern and bore a hole from one side to another."

 

Female version: "create a similarity in the pattern."

 

The male version is more direct, and relies on brute force. The female is more complex but does use brute strength.

 

Thus, the two even each other out.

 

Both sexes can do what the other can do because the weaves for each are tailored to their strengths and weaknesses. Thus "speed" in actual weaving would not be different, because they are not weaving the same thing. Just as strength isn't needed for women, because they weave in a way that is more complex but less reliant on strength, dexterity isn't needed for men because the weaves can be achieved through strength and simplicity.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Dexterity, in Dungeons and Dragons, is always an important skill. It's the speed and smoothness in which you can draw a bow and shoot with smoothness and accuracy. How quickly you can cast a spell. How clumsy you are is the best description. If you've ever seen Lord of the Rings, when Legolas walks on top of the snow and the others are all trying to plow through it and having a rough time, it's because Legolas has a very high dexterity.

In Randland, Mat probably has the highest dexterity of anyone I've seen in the books. Thom is probably a close second. Do do slight of hand, juggle, and be acrobatic are fine examples of dextierity. And for Mat to snatch daggers out of the air that are thrown at him is off the charts. Plus the way he can spin his staff in a blur and keep it going like when he fought the Gohlam. That's freakin impressive too.

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it is mentioned in one of the books that female channelers can make longer bridges of the one power then men, when Rand is going to talk to the Sea Folks he makes a bridge and he states that a female channeler would be able to make it longer then he even if he is 10 times as strong,. I would say that has something to do with dexterity

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it is mentioned in one of the books that female channelers can make longer bridges of the one power then men, when Rand is going to talk to the Sea Folks he makes a bridge and he states that a female channeler would be able to make it longer then he even if he is 10 times as strong,. I would say that has something to do with dexterity

 

Maybe yes, but I got the impression this had more to do with women being stronger with Air than men.

As to dexteretiy, I read it like agility, something like a combi between what FSM and bigdoug

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I also imagine dexterity as being the ease with which one can weave more than one thing at a time. I've always thought it seemed like women multi-tasked better with OP. Sure, Rand's done like ten different things at once, but he was struggling. you look at Egwene, and she seems to split her weaves almost effortlessly.

 

I think that, whatever it means, the strength-dexterity balance DEFINITELY has a lot to do with the natures of saidar/saidin.

 

I kind of think this too. I think that dexterity is a like a combination of what we have said. Multiple weaves at once, faster, and more complex weaves along with unweaving are all better for women to do. In summary, women have an easier time making weaves and doing things with that, but they don't have the strength that the men have to make it bigger and more powerful. For me, this would be a great balance between men and women. Before (after the taint was cleansed), I thought that men had an unfair advantage. This might even it out enough to have them equal. I think that it has to do with saidar and saidin because otherwise, the only difference is between men and women and that means that men are inherently born with more strength in the power if they have the ability and women with more dexterity. This seems implausible to me. I think it has to do with saidin and saidar.

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I also imagine dexterity as being the ease with which one can weave more than one thing at a time. I've always thought it seemed like women multi-tasked better with OP. Sure, Rand's done like ten different things at once, but he was struggling. you look at Egwene, and she seems to split her weaves almost effortlessly.

 

I think that, whatever it means, the strength-dexterity balance DEFINITELY has a lot to do with the natures of saidar/saidin.

 

I kind of think this too. I think that dexterity is a like a combination of what we have said. Multiple weaves at once, faster, and more complex weaves along with unweaving are all better for women to do. In summary, women have an easier time making weaves and doing things with that, but they don't have the strength that the men have to make it bigger and more powerful. For me, this would be a great balance between men and women. Before (after the taint was cleansed), I thought that men had an unfair advantage. This might even it out enough to have them equal. I think that it has to do with saidar and saidin because otherwise, the only difference is between men and women and that means that men are inherently born with more strength in the power if they have the ability and women with more dexterity. This seems implausible to me. I think it has to do with saidin and saidar.

 

If that were the case than all a man has to do to achieve everything a woman can is to link with her and use saidar. I doubt it's that easy. As for the splitting their weaves, Rand split his 12 times as soon as tSR and did not look strained at all according to Egwene. In ToM he had so many weaves going at once that Naeff could not even count them all. Sure it's Rand but still. To me dexterity just means they can achieve the same as men with less power. They're just more efficient, more precise in their weaving perhaps. I've never thought women were at a disadvantage. If anything I've alway thought they might even be at an advantage thanks to their ability to link, which men don't have. Ultimately though the differences between male and female channellers go beyond strength and dexterity. There a number of differences: going from the way they handle fire, the aforementioned ability to make bridges with air, men getting goosebumps when women channel, women grow in power steadily whereas men do grow in leaps, women locating other women who can channel faster as well as being able to tell their strength with greater accuracy. There probably a great amount of differences which we don't know about. Men are probably better a some things and women at others. The one thing we do know is that everything even out in the end.

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In Winter's Heart, Nynaeve is teaching some winderfinders and says the flows are extremely dexterous. This implies that it is the speed an finesse you can move your flows with rather than anything to do with the actual weaving, though that would be a secondary effect.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I kind of think this too. I think that dexterity is a like a combination of what we have said. Multiple weaves at once, faster, and more complex weaves along with unweaving are all better for women to do. In summary, women have an easier time making weaves and doing things with that, but they don't have the strength that the men have to make it bigger and more powerful. For me, this would be a great balance between men and women. Before (after the taint was cleansed), I thought that men had an unfair advantage. This might even it out enough to have them equal. I think that it has to do with saidar and saidin because otherwise, the only difference is between men and women and that means that men are inherently born with more strength in the power if they have the ability and women with more dexterity. This seems implausible to me. I think it has to do with saidin and saidar.

 

What I find interesting is that right now, its the females that have the advantage.

 

When Asmodean first explained the rules way back, he claimed that the fact men were stronger was balanced by the fact that women could link and men could not.

 

However now what Asmodean said was retconned, it seems to me that its the men who got the short end of the stick. While they may be stronger, women can do exactly the same thing with less power thanks to their more dexterous channeling and ALSO link with each other, while men "lost" the strength advantage but maintained the no-linking disadvantage.

 

Its also rather odd that the most complex channeling seems to have been done by LTT during the trolloc attack, when he simultaneously made lots of complex weaves. A quick count shows that LTT made 13 simultaneous weaves composed of 38 flows. And thats not counting what Rand did in the latest book since I am unsure if anything freaky was going on there.

 

Can a male learn to be dexterous with sufficient (4 centuries with LTT) practice I wonder.

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I don't think it's been retconned. RJ didn't say they can to exactly the same thing. They can "just about" everything that they men can do, and to the same degree. I think that Asmodean spoke the truth. Average women would need to form a circle in order to match a man of about average strength. In a situation where they were duelling each other, that is. Either trying to shield each other, or trying to kill each other. I would think brute strength is more important then. They don't need the most complicated weave to defeat the other.

Edited by Nightstrike
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