Destroying Cuendillar

[baalsmistress]

Isn't localised pattern destruction (unravelling) the primary form of destruction utilised by the true power?

[yoniy0]

Just noticed this thread, and was dismayed at how long this took.

It was actually news to me when Barid posted it

[Terez]

That's what searching and tags and cross-referencing are for, as demonstrated above in my footnotes.

[FarShainMael]

So, per Brandon, the two ways to destroy cuendillar are:

 

1) the Pattern unravelling

 

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=632#10

 

2) the True Power

 

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=468#14

 

Now, far be it from me to say BS is wrong (ducks balefire from all sides!) but I'm a wee bit confused. AIUI, the seals are made from cuendillar:

 

http://encyclopaedia...tems/seals.html

 

and their whole purpose is to seal the Bore by patching the Pattern. I know that the seals are slowly crumbling; but I can't see them working at all to begin with!

 

What am I missing....?

 

Help.....!!

[Barid Bel Medar]

@Terez heh, yeah, I promise it is not due to your new quote page model, I actually think it is good. I have been away for a good few months, so a bit rusty haha. I have to admit that I was suprised to see it, I had looked over the quotes a fair bit a year back, and I can't remember anything like this, is it a new addition? Or has Graendal used Compulsion to make me forget, thus promoting Chaos on this thread.

 

@FSM

 

I think it is because the 7 discs are not the actual seals themselves, but something like focus points. The seal was made by saidin (I supect some kind of "warding" type thing) and blocked off the DO, so I guess that the discs we see have been corrupted slowly, like the DO only leaked through a bit at the start, and it gradually grew weaker.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks bbm, that makes sense!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thanks bbm, that makes sense!

 

I am trying to find a quote for it. It is in the SaSG story, says that the 7 seals are the "focus points" of the weaving used to seal the bore.

[yoniy0]

Actually, this raises the question: if the Seals held the DO from unraveling the Pattern, how then did the first one fail? It wasn't TP, no FS got to it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Actually, this raises the question: if the Seals held the DO from unraveling the Pattern, how then did the first one fail? It wasn't TP, no FS got to it.

 

Indeed, I was thinking about this as well. This is the only quote that provides any explanation, and as you see, it is only partial.

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

 

PAUL WARD

Possible question: How did the Hundred Companions link to make the seals on the Dark One's prison?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

They did not do it linked. They worked together individually, which made it more difficult, and that is part of the reason the seals have weakened so quickly. I never meant to imply linking. It is possible for large numbers to do a large project without linking, although it is more easily done in a circle

.

 

My best guess is that it was an imperfect sealing. That the DO, from which the TP comes from, was always applying pressure to the seal. So while the DO could not simply crush the seals with the TP, he eventually wore down their resistance over 3000 years, until a more direct approach could be adopted.

 

I would say the DO, by virtue of being a force of Chaos, destruction or evil, whatever you want to call it, meant the eventual erosion of the imperfect seal. What Rand needs, I gather, is something that not even the DO can penetrate. Like anti-DO cuendillar.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks bbm, that makes sense!

 

I am trying to find a quote for it. It is in the SaSG story, says that the 7 seals are the "focus points" of the weaving used to seal the bore.

 

Thanks, found it:

 

http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=The_Strike_at_Shayol_Ghul

[gloweye]

Actually, this raises the question: if the Seals held the DO from unraveling the Pattern, how then did the first one fail? It wasn't TP, no FS got to it.

 

Indeed, I was thinking about this as well. This is the only quote that provides any explanation, and as you see, it is only partial.

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

 

PAUL WARD

Possible question: How did the Hundred Companions link to make the seals on the Dark One's prison?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

They did not do it linked. They worked together individually, which made it more difficult, and that is part of the reason the seals have weakened so quickly. I never meant to imply linking. It is possible for large numbers to do a large project without linking, although it is more easily done in a circle

.

 

My best guess is that it was an imperfect sealing. That the DO, from which the TP comes from, was always applying pressure to the seal. So while the DO could not simply crush the seals with the TP, he eventually wore down their resistance over 3000 years, until a more direct approach could be adopted.

 

I would say the DO, by virtue of being a force of Chaos, destruction or evil, whatever you want to call it, meant the eventual erosion of the imperfect seal. What Rand needs, I gather, is something that not even the DO can penetrate. Like anti-DO cuendillar.

 

Im going for slow disruption to. It seems to fit most. Than again, the FS would still require TP to break one. I doubt if thats possible with LTT's sealing. But i've got no proof.

 

@yoniyo

Ty for providing that quote, and please accept my apologies for not providing it myself. I haven't got a single book in hands reach, and im doing everything on mobile phone, so I cant copy from Theoryland database - at least not that ive found out.

[Moxyll]

Actually, this raises the question: if the Seals held the DO from unraveling the Pattern, how then did the first one fail? It wasn't TP, no FS got to it.

 

I had always assumed it was similar to breaking a tied-off shield (see: Rand before Dumai's Wells). The DO could probably feel the tie-off points (the seals) and slowly work through the weaving until he could touch the seal itself with the TP. There's nothing to back this up, of course.

[yoniy0]

No, but it's still neat

[Knivy]

Can I get a clarification on something? The only way to destroy Cuendillar is to unravel the pattern or use the true power. The true power works by destroying the pattern. True Power=Destroying the Pattern. Therefor, isnt this still only one way to destroy Cuendillar?

[gloweye]

Tere may be other ways to unravel the pattern I.e., rand on dragonmount peak. He held.enough saidin to.

 

As for TP not being on way to unravel, unravveling the pattern sound like a more global effect to me. Any body else thoughts?

[mmurray821]

For me it seems like the DO is destroying the seals by the same way he is causing disruptions to the pattern (i.e. the cells in the white tower). There is the start of the pattern disruption, but the DO may not be able to fully break them since they are the focus of the patch. They most likely are the strongest point. The DO can only weaken them and allow outside agents to break them.

[Thrasymachus]

The quote from RJ seems to me to suggest that the seals may not be true cuendillar. Note that we don't see any other example of any kind of cuendillar decaying over time through this or any other influence. Granted, no other piece of cuendillar has been put through this kind of test. The seals themselves are "focal points" for the plug in the Bore, perhaps the seals had to be made of cuendillar, not just to prevent them from being destroyed through some act of stupidity or malice, but to give the seal in the Bore certain properties of cuendillar as well. If sealing the Bore were somehow linked to the process of making the iron plates into the cuendillar seals, and the 100 companions had to maintain that linkage while turning the plates into the seals, then perhaps the very act and difficulty of maintaining that linkage interfered in some minor way with the process of making the plates into cuendillar such that they were susceptible to a slow decay. If so, then perhaps the inclusion of women so that Linking was possible wouldn't have allowed the seals to decay, so that the Dark One couldn't break free through the Bore, but would have tainted Saidar as well.

[TristanWebb]

The weaves had to touch the DO to seal him, which allowed to counterstroke to taint Saidin. The seals are the focus points of the weave. It is possible that the seals are points in the weave(s) where the DO can touch the world.You could feel the DO eminating from the seals when they are whole. So he can touch the seals, which over the course of 3thousand years slowly corrupted the cuendillar to the point it wasn't anymore. You could feel the DO eminating from the seals when they are whole.

 

Remember that once the seal Nyn and Elayne brought to Salidar was shattered, the AS there had no trouble believing it was cuendillar even though it was broken. I don't recall if it was unbreakable again or if it was still flakey or if it was mentioned at all, but it seems reasonable to assume that if they knew it was cuendillar then the shards went back to being unbreakable.

[MasterAblar]

The weaves had to touch the DO to seal him, which allowed to counterstroke to taint Saidin. The seals are the focus points of the weave. It is possible that the seals are points in the weave(s) where the DO can touch the world.You could feel the DO eminating from the seals when they are whole. So he can touch the seals, which over the course of 3thousand years slowly corrupted the cuendillar to the point it wasn't anymore. You could feel the DO eminating from the seals when they are whole.

 

Remember that once the seal Nyn and Elayne brought to Salidar was shattered, the AS there had no trouble believing it was cuendillar even though it was broken. I don't recall if it was unbreakable again or if it was still flakey or if it was mentioned at all, but it seems reasonable to assume that if they knew it was cuendillar then the shards went back to being unbreakable.

 

The one found in the Eye of the World was unbreakable despite being in several pieces. Presumably it is the same thing for the one Nyneave and Elayne found.

[Sharaman]

Can you take Cuendillar outside the (normal) Pattern - that is, could it be broken in a stedding/ Finnland or a mirror world?

[baalsmistress]

The steddings, Finnland and the mirror worlds are all within the pattern.

[FarShainMael]

How about vacuoles?

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/vacuole.html

[TristanWebb]

If cuendillar can only be destroyed by the DO and unravelling the pattern, is it possible that cuendillar is dangerous to the pattern like balefire is? The AS claim to have documents for every piece that was ever made and the making of it was lost during the breaking. This implies the lists were important enough to protect during the breaking. The making of it seems easy, Egwene can turn hundreds of feet of chain to it in an instant and others who have just learnt the weave can turn out goblets in a few hours. Why wouldn't you make everything out of it? 10 mile high buildings using cuendillar as framing. Cuendillar bearings in anything that moves so they never wear out. Why bother making powerwroght swords that need you to channel while they are being made when you could just get an AoL Egwene equivilent to turn 1000 iron swords to cuendillar in an afternood?

 

My thought is maybe cuendillar makes locks in pattern, places where the pattern is fixed. Making too many pieces forces the pattern to be less able to weave effectivly. No evidence for this, just that I could think of hundreds of uses for unbendable, unbreakable, uncorrodible metals that can be in any shape you feel like.