breaking the seals

[TootThatHorn]

dont know if anyone has said this, i feel like i may have read it but what if rand has perrin break the seals with his hammer, i could see that, especially as a declaration of total commitment at the FOM and having perrin do it helps bring more people behind the idea rather than rand himself doing it... a kind of here we are and were not afraid

 

edit: i dont know if that would happen too early on, it may or may not put a rush on things if it happened, but a thought i had

 

The seals are already in a very weakened state. They could probably be crushed by hand.

 

for sure, i just figure theres not a lot of drama in that, and like i said, having another of the taveren do it would be good for rallying people behind the act

[azrael.1289]

The issue here stems from the fact that rand didnt bother to explain why he needed to break the seals and his actions regarding the aftermath.

 

After all if you were taught all your life that the seals placed by lews therin telamon 3000 years was the only thing blocking the DO from accessing the world you would be terrified if someone suggested smashing the seals without any explanation.

 

Unfortunately common human reactions are ignored but hey where's the fun in common sense these days?

Except it's not somebody telling it to you, it's the same person who created the original seal and the prophecies(whose importance Egwene must know) concerning him. And it's not like the seals are strong, it could crumble any day without anyone's help.

You could argue she thinks Rand is insane yada yada yada, doesn't change the fact it's not as simple or cut and dry as you have put. Common sense Please.

[FarShainMael]

Since when did Egwene have anything to do with Rand's death/ressurection? Alivia is the one who is going to help him die and Egwene isn't very likely to be one of the three women in a boat and the two women who'll be linked to him are pretty much confirmed to be Nyneave and Moiraine. So where's the connection to Egwene?

 

Actually, there is an indication that Egwene might be one of the three women on the boat. Recall Nicola's Foretelling:

 

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.

 

Back in ACoS12, Egwene prepares to take Lan to Ebou Dar quickly, by Skimming:

 

Weaving a gateway where he had been practising the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness thar stretched forever. Skimmimng required a platform, and though it coulkd be anyting you chose to imagine, every sister seemed to have one she preferred. For her, that was this wooden barge, with stout railings.

 

Egwene Skims on a boat. And 'She who sees beyond' could mean Egwene the Dreamer, not Min.

 

(Incidentally, the 'dedicated spear' may not refer to Avi, since at the time of this foretelling she wasn't Far Dareis Mai any more - she was training to become a Wise One (TSR23). and I don't think Elayne has ever used a sword..)

[azrael.1289]

Since when did Egwene have anything to do with Rand's death/ressurection? Alivia is the one who is going to help him die and Egwene isn't very likely to be one of the three women in a boat and the two women who'll be linked to him are pretty much confirmed to be Nyneave and Moiraine. So where's the connection to Egwene?

 

Actually, there is an indication that Egwene might be one of the three women on the boat. Recall Nicola's Foretelling:

 

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.

 

Back in ACoS12, Egwene prepares to take Lan to Ebou Dar quickly, by Skimming:

 

Weaving a gateway where he had been practising the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness thar stretched forever. Skimmimng required a platform, and though it coulkd be anyting you chose to imagine, every sister seemed to have one she preferred. For her, that was this wooden barge, with stout railings.

 

Egwene Skims on a boat. And 'She who sees beyond' could mean Egwene the Dreamer, not Min.

 

(Incidentally, the 'dedicated spear' may not refer to Avi, since at the time of this foretelling she wasn't Far Dareis Mai any more - she was training to become a Wise One (TSR23). and I don't think Elayne has ever used a sword..)

But doesn't the DKS cover art pretty much confirm it's Min, Aviendha and Elayne ?

[FarShainMael]

That cover simply shows three women around the bier; I don't think they were definitely identified as THE three - though I may be wrong; I can't find that thread. If you can, please post. But even if they're by that bier, they don't necessarily have to have been on the boat. A bit nit-picky, I know.

 

Also, I'm fully expecting Min to get killed, as may have been foreshadowed by the LTT-voice adding her name to Rand's list in TGS29.

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: May, 2012

A Memory of Light Cover Art Round-Up (Verbatim)

 

TEREZ

The tor.com post about the Whelan art is copied in full and parsed for tagging, but there are some plot-relevant bits from a friend of Whelan's in the comments that are recorded at the bottom, and I've clipped the relevant bit about the DKS art from Tor's tribute post.

 

IRENE GALLO

 

The scene depicts Min, Aviendha, and Elayne gathered on a battlefield around what is presumably a funeral pyre for Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn. What we recognize as a yin/yang appears in the clouds, possibly signifying a unity that has evaded male and female channelers for over 3000 years.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

OK, good enough.

[Elan Tedronai]

The issue here stems from the fact that rand didnt bother to explain why he needed to break the seals and his actions regarding the aftermath.

 

After all if you were taught all your life that the seals placed by lews therin telamon 3000 years was the only thing blocking the DO from accessing the world you would be terrified if someone suggested smashing the seals without any explanation.

 

Unfortunately common human reactions are ignored but hey where's the fun in common sense these days?

Except it's not somebody telling it to you, it's the same person who created the original seal and the prophecies(whose importance Egwene must know) concerning him. And it's not like the seals are strong, it could crumble any day without anyone's help.

You could argue she thinks Rand is insane yada yada yada, doesn't change the fact it's not as simple or cut and dry as you have put. Common sense Please.

 

are you thick? did rand explain what to egwene on the primary reason behind shattering the seals or more importanlty on how he was going to seal the bore differently this time? All he did was turn to the white tower told her he was going to smash the seals, refused her offer of planning and walked off.

 

I think you ought to read that passage once again. You sound like my previous boss. Does things without any need for explanation

[RandA lThor]

But even when nynaeve tries to explain to her why, she doesnt listen.

[DaoineSidhe]

While I haven't really liked Egwene's behavior since she won the Tower, if you step away from it a bit and look at the perspectives, I think her reaction to Rand is quite rational. She hasn't read this book. She hasn't seen the foreshadowing we have (although she has some), or been privy to the conversations Rand had with Fel about the seals. We see all of these, and so it seems obvious to us, the reader, that this is what must be done. Let's look at what Egwene knows:

 

-Almost from the beginning of her ability to Dream, she has had various Dreams that involve the breaking of the Seals, and HUGE feelings of DREAD. Variations of the Dream have happened, but the two key things she always takes away from them is the Seals breaking and a feeling of dread.

 

-Rand and Egwene's relationship (not romantic) had been in flux to a great extent, with both really growing apart even when they lived in the same city (Cairhien). She eventually leaves there to become the leader of a group of Aes Sedai, most of whom are either terrified of Rand, somewhat hostile towards him, or want to control him. In this environment, regardless of her intentions, it would be hard for her not to have her view of him skew even more towards distrust. Next she hears of how some of Her (Rebel) Aes Sedai have sworn fealty to Rand! Then she finds out about Asha'Man bonding Aes Sedai as "War Sedai?" "Aes Ders?" against the Aes Sedai's will.

 

Now here comes Rand "The Lord Dragon" Al'Thor waltzing into the WT, Egwene's seat of power, and he announces in front of everyone assembled "In ten days, I'm going to break the Seals and start TG, so be at FoM where I'm going to announce my Demands required for me to fight in TG." I think her ensuing behavior and actions are as rational as Egwene could have acted, given her knowledge and situation. If she just announces to the Aes Sedai that she belives him, when most of them don't, especially on this controversial, and possibly game changing issue, we could well see a new Amyrlin (well, probably not that, but she could lose a lot of her power). Plus when you think about the information Egwene has, Rand does seem Arrogant, Rude, and, let's face it, Crazy. Egwene has always seen one of her main roles to Rand to make sure he doesn't "get too big for his breaches." Time and again, given the opportunity, regardless of whether it's right or not, she controverts Rand to bring him down a peg or two. All in all, I don't see how Egwene could have reacted in any other way to Rand's proclamation.

 

That being said, I think she will come around, and hopefully lose some of her own Pride/Arrogance. Kind of ironic that it'll be Rand popping her bubble this time instead of the other way around. Just my thoughts.

[Suttree]

But even when nynaeve tries to explain to her why, she doesnt listen.

 

Quote? IIRC when Egwene questioned her Nynaeve response was "maybe your right".

[RandA lThor]

Nynaeve says maybe your right, but egwene tries to convince her to that before, what I am trying to say is that Nynaeve tried to reason with Egwene and Egwene just dismissed it

 

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy.

[Suttree]

Nynaeve says maybe your right, but egwene tries to convince her to that before, what I am trying to say is that Nynaeve tried to reason with Egwene and Egwene just dismissed it

 

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy.

 

Not really getting it. Nyn tries to reason with her but then says what I quoted above? That's not exactly too strong a point you're making. They both offered opinions is all. Its not as if Nyn has some new inside info. As others have noted her reaction is totally rational. Again if Min has found the answers and Rand actually explains why it needs to happen I would be very surprised if she doesn't listen to reason.

 

As an aside DS actually had a very solid post on the last page. I agree with most of it.

[RandA lThor]

I guess we have to wait until AMoL to see if she is like that or not then.

[Datakim]

I am curious why it seems that Egwene does not in any way take into account Rand's new abilities and properties.

 

I mean he demonstrated the ability to cancel the DO's influence on the world with the apples, and then actually caused those apple trees to instantly produce a large quantity of apples. His mere presence there also rejunevated the plant-life otherwise (grass gets greener and so on). There is a scene later with Gawyn and Bryne where that apple orchard is shown to be circled in Brynes maps, so Egwene knows all about this and what Rands presence did.

 

Then there is the fact that Rand merely walking into Tar Valon caused the permanent cloud cover to disappear, and also stopped food spoilage and so on. Infact during and a bit after his visit, Tar Valons food situation improved. Later, when the clouds close over Tar Valon again, Egwene considers the prophecy about Dragon being one with the land, demonstrating her awareness that Rand caused the sunlight/food. Should that not clue her in that maybe this new Rand who literally brings sunlight wherever he goes, is probably worth listening to. Then there are the other effects such as his anti-darkfriend aura with Weiramon, which Egwene would certainly have learned about given how public thing it was. Why is she so dismissive of the fact that Rand is now basically somekind of light-avatar. If reality itself seems to be saying that Rand is now on the right path, then is opposing that really wise?

 

Rand also told Egwene that he had LTT's memories. And even if she dismissed that as craziness, she would certainly have been able to confirm that from Nynaeve, who witnessed several incidents where Rand demonstrated AoL knowledge/skill. Being able to teach her how to remove compulsion thanks to LTT for example would serve as proof that Rand really does have LTT's memories now. And LTT was the one who made and installed the seals. Why does no one in the series take this into account? Heck, that applies to Min&Cadsuane too. They know about LTT so why are they not trying to learn everything about how the seals work. Cadsuane should have browns taking notes about the seals every free moment Rand has.

[Suttree]

I am curious why it seems that Egwene does not in any way take into account Rand's new abilities and properties.

 

I mean he demonstrated the ability to cancel the DO's influence on the world with the apples, and then actually caused those apple trees to instantly produce a large quantity of apples. His mere presence there also rejunevated the plant-life otherwise (grass gets greener and so on). There is a scene later with Gawyn and Bryne where that apple orchard is shown to be circled in Brynes maps, so Egwene knows all about this and what Rands presence did.

 

Then there is the fact that Rand merely walking into Tar Valon caused the permanent cloud cover to disappear, and also stopped food spoilage and so on. Infact during and a bit after his visit, Tar Valons food situation improved. Later, when the clouds close over Tar Valon again, Egwene considers the prophecy about Dragon being one with the land, demonstrating her awareness that Rand caused the sunlight/food. Should that not clue her in that maybe this new Rand who literally brings sunlight wherever he goes, is probably worth listening to. Then there are the other effects such as his anti-darkfriend aura with Weiramon, which Egwene would certainly have learned about given how public thing it was. Why is she so dismissive of the fact that Rand is now basically somekind of light-avatar. If reality itself seems to be saying that Rand is now on the right path, then is opposing that really wise?

 

That is just the problem. There is nothing to listen to. He refused to discuss the situation and purposely antagonized her to oppose him(not to mention he has no idea how to seal the bore and is hoping Min finds the answers for him). As for Nyn she may have talked about how he has changed but even she conceded Egwene "may be right" in terms of breaking the seals.

 

Lastly I find it odd that everyone who talks about "Jesus Rand" seems to forget about that pesky link with Moridin that still exists. No, until there are answers as to how to actually seal the bore and Rand lays out a rational plan it is right to question his course.

[Datakim]

That is just the problem. There is nothing to listen to. He refused to discuss the situation and purposely antagonized her to oppose him(not to mention he has no idea how to seal the bore and is hoping Min finds the answers for him). As for Nyn she may have talked about how he has changed but even she conceded Egwene "may be right" in terms of breaking the seals.

 

Lastly I find it odd that everyone who talks about "Jesus Rand" seems to forget about that pesky link with Moridin that still exists. No, until there are answers as to how to actually seal the bore and Rand lays out a rational plan it is right to question his course.

 

The point I was making is that Rand is basically indeed "Jesus Rand" as you call it, from the POV of others. I mean think of this from the POV of Egwene rather than the reader. The guy comes in, and sunlight follows him. He repels the DO and even causes food to grow by his mere presence. Darkfriends cannot stand to look at him, and his ta'veren is so powerfull that he can walk into Tar Valon without fear. He is now 4 centuries old, with all the knowledge of LTT and has a strange shield of light in his head (assuming Nynaeve told Egwene this).

 

Given all of that, would it not actually make sense for Egwene to think that maybe the pattern/Creator had told Rand what to do or something. I mean its pretty obvious that he is not the same old Rand anymore, but something more.

 

WE as readers know that Rand is still linked to Moridin, touched the True Power, and does not know what to do to win, but Egwene does not know those bits. All Egwene knows is that Rand is apparently now indeed "Jesus Rand", because thats the information she has access to. Thats what she saw herself when Rand visited Tar Valon, and thats what she would learn from her spies. Having sunlight follow Rand around is not exactly a subtle effect afterall. Neither is food no longer spoiling or even unspoiling (the apples). And the anti-darkfriend aura that she would certainly have heard of.

[Suttree]

...

 

We have no evidence that she even knows about a number of the things you mentioned. In addition no one else in world thinks of the situation(or him) like that so not sure why you would hold her to a different standard. Heck even Nyn who has spent as much time with him as anyone and seen the transformation from Dark to Light first hand still isn't sure. Just because there is so new phenomena surrounding round does not mean you just chuck it in and follow him blindly. We have seen what happens already when no one is questioning him(and we sure as hell don't want to go back there). He needs to lay out a plan so the Light can get on the same page.

[randsc]

Actually, no, he doesn't. I expect he WILL, but he needn't.

 

It's like in politics. If you're a Democrat, and your candidate isn't liberal enough for your taste, where are you going to go? You're going to vote Republican? You're going to sit it out, aiding the Republican?

 

The Light-siders have no where else to go. They must get behind Rand, whether they agree with his approach or not. Because Rand's plan, whatever it is, may or may not succeed. But without Rand, NO plan succeeds.

 

He holds all the trump cards.

[Datakim]

We have no evidence that she even knows about a number of the things you mentioned. In addition no one else in world thinks of the situation(or him) like that so not sure why you would hold her to a different standard. Heck even Nyn who has spent as much time with him as anyone and seen the transformation from Dark to Light first hand still isn't sure. Just because there is so new phenomena surrounding round does not mean you just chuck it in and follow him blindly. We have seen what happens already when no one is questioning him(and we sure as hell don't want to go back there). He needs to lay out a plan so the Light can get on the same page.

 

She has eyes, so she knows that sunlight follows him whereever he goes. And its been a month, so if her informants have not been able to send her messages to confirm that its a steady phenomena around Rand, then she is so utterly incompetent as to make the whole thing laughable. I mean seriously, the entire world is clouded by the DO, except whereever Rand goes and you think this is something the entire White Tower has not noticed?

 

We know that the White Tower is aware that Rand undoes the DO's influence, due to the scene with Gawyn and Bryne where the apple orchard where Rand made apples grow is marked. Furthermore, there is a scene with Egwene where the clouds return and the food starts spoiling again, and she acknowledges that their brief respite from the DO was because Rand briefly visited. She is also aware that those bonded to Rand cause similar effects, after they start bringing food from Caemlyn where Elayne is.

 

Bottom line, Egwene and the WT know that Rand is spreading light and countering the DO whereever he goes. They know that reality itself utterly supports him now. As for Nynaeve and Cadsuane, both now trust Rand. And they have far more reason to be doubtfull considering they lived with mad!Rand. However even they acknowledge that the new Rand is better, despite knowing far more negatives.

 

Thats basically what bugs me. You can call it "new phenomena", but this new phenomena happens to basically make Rand look like somekind of Light embodiment. You would think that even if Egwene and others don't support Rand in the end, they would atleast wonder why it is that the pattern now supports him so totally, and make it doubt themselves just a little bit. I mean the guy is surrounded by a halo of light and darkfriends cant even look at him. And there is not even a single scene in the book, where even a single character wonders if maybe that might be a sign of some sort. That does not sound very realistic to me to be honest.

[fionwe1987]

I'm confused how clouds parting, apples growing, food not rotting, etc. mean you should accept Rand's judgment. What has one got to do with another?

 

If a man claiming to be God came to you, exhibited God-like powers, and then said, "Dude, I need you to dunk your head in a tub of water till you drown. I can't tell you why, but it will turn out well. Trust me. And no, I can't tell you how it will turn out well either"; would you dunk your head in water?

 

What you're ignoring is that ta'veren isn't divine power in the WoT world. Its a function of the non-sentient Pattern. The Aes Sedai know this. Just because someone is super-ta'veren doesn't mean you don't oppose them! And the very fact that Egwene was able to argue with him, when others could not, is some proof that the Pattern wants her to do this. Add to that the dream which comes to her at the exact frickin moment Rand enters the WT, and she has every reason to oppose what looks like the most incredibly ill-thought out idea of breaking the Seals right away.

[Suttree]

We have no evidence that she even knows about a number of the things you mentioned. In addition no one else in world thinks of the situation(or him) like that so not sure why you would hold her to a different standard. Heck even Nyn who has spent as much time with him as anyone and seen the transformation from Dark to Light first hand still isn't sure. Just because there is so new phenomena surrounding round does not mean you just chuck it in and follow him blindly. We have seen what happens already when no one is questioning him(and we sure as hell don't want to go back there). He needs to lay out a plan so the Light can get on the same page.

 

She has eyes, so she knows that sunlight follows him whereever he goes. And its been a month, so if her informants have not been able to send her messages to confirm that its a steady phenomena around Rand, then she is so utterly incompetent as to make the whole thing laughable. I mean seriously, the entire world is clouded by the DO, except whereever Rand goes and you think this is something the entire White Tower has not noticed?

 

That's not what I was referring to. There are a number of other things from your post however that there is zero proof that she knows...

 

Actually, no, he doesn't. I expect he WILL, but he needn't.

 

Need as in I think he should, just as you expect. I didn't mean need as in has to or things will go wrong within the framework of the story.

 

Given all of that, would it not actually make sense for Egwene to think that maybe the pattern/Creator had told Rand what to do or something.

 

If she did think that she would be totally wrong. That is an even worse reason for her to support him.

[Datakim]

I'm confused how clouds parting, apples growing, food not rotting, etc. mean you should accept Rand's judgment. What has one got to do with another?

 

If a man claiming to be God came to you, exhibited God-like powers, and then said, "Dude, I need you to dunk your head in a tub of water till you drown. I can't tell you why, but it will turn out well. Trust me. And no, I can't tell you how it will turn out well either"; would you dunk your head in water?

 

Thats an utterly horrible example. Rand is not asking them to die with certainty. He is saying that the seals need to be broken in order to win. The question is whether or not he is right. My point is that its odd that no one considers the fact that Rand now demonstrates totally unknown and never before seen powers of light as a possible clue that maybe Rand now knows things others do not. I am not saying that Egwene should take that as proof that Rand is right or obey him, but it feels odd to me that she never even wonders about that. She lives in a world where she KNOWS there exists prophecies and foretellings and a creator god, and she knows Rand has gained new super-powers, and she does not even think once that maybe Rand was told by the pattern/Creator what to do or is being guided by the light or something. Again, not saying she should have accepted that as sufficient proof to obey Rand and abandon her plans, but why is it that she (or someone else for that matter) does not even consider it. Especially since she is a dreamer and has foretelling powers of her own.

 

What you're ignoring is that ta'veren isn't divine power in the WoT world. Its a function of the non-sentient Pattern. The Aes Sedai know this. Just because someone is super-ta'veren doesn't mean you don't oppose them! And the very fact that Egwene was able to argue with him, when others could not, is some proof that the Pattern wants her to do this. Add to that the dream which comes to her at the exact frickin moment Rand enters the WT, and she has every reason to oppose what looks like the most incredibly ill-thought out idea of breaking the Seals right away.

 

First, thats actually something that bugged me. Ta'veren has been said to be a mechanism of the pattern to correct itself and fix any damage right? And the Creator made the pattern. The Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, and is doing his very best to damage it. Would that therefore not mean, that ta'veren is by very definition a force that utterly opposes the Dark One. So if a ta'veren effect wants you to do something, forcibly disobeying it would actually be serving the DO in a way, by weakening the pattern. So when Egwene thinks that ta'veren made Nynaeve trust Rand, why does she think thats bad? Should that not be further proof that doing what Rand wants will strenghten the pattern->weaken the DO. Remember that Rand does not control ta'veren, so he could not "make" Nynaeve trust him.

 

That being said however, even we readers don't know for certain if Rands new powers are because of ta'veren. Egwene certainly would not. There has never been a ta'veren in the history of the world, that darkfriends could not look at for example. So its not just a question of ta'veren, Rands new powers seem exactly that, new and never before seen. Also remember that the people of the world know that the Creator exists, but they don't have RJ's word of his non-interference. So how does Egwene know for example that the Creator did not directly save Rand or tell him what to do. Especially if she learns of the light-shield in his head that keeps the taint at bay, which she should given that Nynaeve would want her to know Rand is sane.

 

Rand has become something more than a strong ta'veren. He was a ta'veren all along, but only now does he bring sunlight wherever he goes and repel the DO's power. Should that not lead to questions and doubts?

[Datakim]

That's not what I was referring to. There are a number of other things from your post however that there is zero proof that she knows...

 

What did I miss? Not that it matters. She knows the major stuff. Sunlight, Anti-DO effect. Darkfriends cannot look at him. Makes things grow and fixes food. Probably about the halo of light from the apple farmer. Basically, she knows Rand now has new light-related powers from an unknown source.

 

If she did think that she would be totally wrong. That is an even worse reason for her to support him.

 

But how does Egwene KNOW that? Did RJ tell her that the Creator does not interfere? WE readers know that Creator presumably had nothing to do with Rand's new powers, but there is NO WAY for Egwene to be aware of it. And Rands new powers are all certainly very Light-Avatar type powers, so why does she not even wonder?

 

I am asking you to look at it from Egwenes or someone elses POV in-universe, with none of the knowledge we readers have about the fact that its not Creator, or that its not given Rand the answers he needs.

[FarShainMael]

I agree entirely with Datakim, both previous posts.

 

I've been thinking for some time that Egwene is under a mild Compulsion from some source. Not Mesaana, or Eg would not have defeated her in T'A'R. More likely, Halima.

 

And yes, Eg does indeed know about the sunlight effect. In ToM56, she is at FoM, Gawyn has just met Morgase, the clouds break, Eg thinks 'He's here, then.'