Lets talk about sex...

[Randommer]

I don't think RJ necessarily left out graphic sex from the books for a YA market, though not wanting to alienate younger readers may have been a factor. I think it was more just the conventions of the 'traditional' fantasy market at the time. I mean, think of LoTR. If the books were only being written now, they might be different. RJ always just said they were 'different sorts of books' to the Conan novels.

 

Also, though this may not be immediately obvious, RJ's WoT narrative style doesn't really lend itself to sex scenes. It's not overly tactile, and changing that just for specific scenes would be more jarring than you'd think.

[Suttree]

I don't think RJ necessarily left out graphic sex from the books for a YA market, though not wanting wanting to alienate younger readers may have been a factor. I think it was more just the conventions of the 'traditional' fantasy market at the time.

 

True to a point, I think some people tend to forget that gritty realism(Martin, Bakker, Abercrombie) wasn't that widespread in Fantasy when WoT was launched. On the flip though certain things in WoT come off as fairly juvenile. I think Tor had the younger market in mind.

[bsmnt23]

I think he just didnt want get into how awkward Rand's first time was; both Rand and Aviendia were both virgins and how boring and awkward is virgin sex? No one wants to read that lol.

[Azrayne]

I think he just didnt want get into how awkward Rand's first time was; both Rand and Aviendia were both virgins and how boring and awkward is virgin sex? No one wants to read that lol.

 

This is true, though you wouldn't think it to read some modern fantasy authors. It always seems a bit silly when they write these massive detailed descriptions about the mindblowing sex their first timer characters are having.

 

I'm honestly not sure I buy the description of WOT as YA fantasy. Maybe back in EOTW, but the massive size, slow pace, multitude of characters and complex sub-plots of the rest of the series hardly lends itself to the YA market. Even as an adult I have to check wiki's regularly to keep track of the legion of minor characters and sub-plots, and being annoyed and bewildered by this aspect of Jordan's writing is a huge part of why I gave up on the series initially as a teenager.

[randsc]

By the fourth book or so, they were no longer stocked in the YA section of bookstores. As for the complexity argument, I frankly don't think that Tor had any idea what it was getting itself into. For that matter, I don't think Jordan had any idea what he was getting himself into. I think things got away from him a bit (alright; more than a bit).

 

I think Randommer and Suttree are both basically right. Not that there wasn't harder-edged fantasy; there absolutely was. But that fantasy novels 20 years ago tended to fall clearly into one of two categories; either the soft-edged, YA friendly category tWoT ended up in, or some very "adult" and graphic stuff. There was less blurring of those lines than there is now. I think it is clear that, given the choice between those two clearly-delimited choices, Tor and Jordan choose the softer.

[Amberfly]

What I don't understand is why so many people seem to think sex is completely vital to good novels. I agree that it's an important part of human interactions and it can help character development (and sometimes plot), but personally I've always though off-screen sex adds much more to a story than explicit scenes do. Good novels can have sex scenes--some of my favorites do--but they aren't essential. There are plenty of good books that have none, and not all of them are YA.

 

Someone mentioned that most authors don't write sex scenes well, and I agree with that too--I've seen some that were just plain funny. One of the things I like so much about WoT is that I'm not bombarded with gratuitous sex scenes every few chapters. Just my personal opinion.

[kght22]

damn, you people still just dont get how graphic the dragon spear sunk into a chair was. as i've said before that was graphic enough for the whole series. he might as well have said "rand put his !*&% in her *#$$&, and #@%%&*&! it". i love how obscure rj was about sexual encounters, this isnt erotic lit. hell terry goodkind is known for some pretty overtly sexual material and even he doesn't sit there in the bedroom describing everything that happens during actual sex. there quite simply is no reason for it. if you dont get what is going on, most likely you shouldn't get what is going on. if you do get what is going on, it is extremely sexy. i ask you, what is a 9 horse hitch? dont ask me, i dont know myself (the reference escapes me) but rj claimed it was naughty.

 

 

EDIT: might be 5 horse, my memory as most are is faulty

[Barid Bel Medar]

damn, you people still just dont get how graphic the dragon spear sunk into a chair was. as i've said before that was graphic enough for the whole series. he might as well have said "rand put his !*&% in her *#$$&, and #@%%&*&! it". i love how obscure rj was about sexual encounters, this isnt erotic lit. hell terry goodkind is known for some pretty overtly sexual material and even he doesn't sit there in the bedroom describing everything that happens during actual sex. there quite simply is no reason for it. if you dont get what is going on, most likely you shouldn't get what is going on. if you do get what is going on, it is extremely sexy. i ask you, what is a 9 horse hitch? dont ask me, i dont know myself (the reference escapes me) but rj claimed it was naughty.

 

 

EDIT: might be 5 horse, my memory as most are is faulty

 

I agree with you, personally, I think that RJ described most of his sex scenes (MOST I said) pretty expertly. They are tastefully done, not crude and overt, but subtle and, as you said, really quite erotic if you catch the meaning. I think it is pretty good writing, he can make vague hints and innuendo quite erotic and as naughty as any porn-type scene.

 

I hate the comparison to the new gritty fantasy. The glaring example of ASOIAF (which I love, by the way) IT is just annoying how every single book is compared to GRRM and what he writes. He kills of main characters = everyone complains that WoT and other books don't kill of more characters. He writes brutal and (IMO) quite crude and distasteful sex scenes = people start complaining about lack of brutal sex in WoT and other stories.

 

There are many variations of fantasy. It is fair enough if someone prefers the gritty and brutal series' (GRRM) over the more "tame" books. However, it is unfair to say it is bad writing or a fault of the author just because a book doesn't feature these elements.

 

PS: I THINK i know what the 9 horse hitch is about, but I am unsure. To be honest, I never gave it much thought. I just assumed that it represented a penis or something, horses in pairs then the odd one at the front vaguely resembles a penis from birds-eye view?

[kght22]

 

PS: I THINK i know what the 9 horse hitch is about, but I am unsure. To be honest, I never gave it much thought. I just assumed that it represented a penis or something, horses in pairs then the odd one at the front vaguely resembles a penis from birds-eye view?

i think it is only something we can ask harriet about after the next book is done. i would hope she would be willing to enligten us as that point, atleast if rj let her know heh. but i would bet that she does, becaues he is the one who confirmed that it was naughty. publicly, if she doesnt know, she doesnt understand the concept of smurf pigment.

[Suttree]

PS: I THINK i know what the 9 horse hitch is about, but I am unsure. To be honest, I never gave it much thought. I just assumed that it represented a penis or something, horses in pairs then the odd one at the front vaguely resembles a penis from birds-eye view?

i think it is only something we can ask harriet about after the next book is done. i would hope she would be willing to enligten us as that point, atleast if rj let her know heh. but i would bet that she does, becaues he is the one who confirmed that it was naughty. publicly, if she doesnt know, she doesnt understand the concept of smurf pigment.

 

HA

 

Interview: Nov 14th, 2000

 

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Vsove

 

What exactly IS a Nine-horse hitch? C'mon, tell us ;) We can handle it...we're all big boys and girls.

Robert Jordan

 

If you don't know already REALLY you aren't old enough.

[yoniy0]

If we're talking about RJ's dirty touches, then disregarding the fact that he loved using the word 'breasts' just as much as BS likes 'tempest', and the amount of spanking going on, there's that little issue of the map of TV. 'Nough said.

[Blackhoof]

I actually really want to find out what a 9-horse hitch is now.....

 

dont make me google it lol

[RandA lThor]

I don't understand how this is a discussion. How may of you are more interested in sex, but not in the action scenes!!?? What's next, let's have more of this, but not more of the character's? A description of sex is completely unnecessary and dumb. I would rather have more of some other things.

[yoniy0]

How many adults are more interested in sex than battlefields? Let me see now... Yep, I think I know some of those awful, awful people.

 

Seriously, I don't love the WoT for it's action. Those parts are nice, but what makes it great for me are the interpersonal relationships between the characters. Like it or not, sex is a part of that. This doesn't mean it deserves graphic descriptions, not in and of itself, not in this sort of literature, but it's not tabu either.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I mean, the action is cool, but the mystery, interaction between characters and the discoveries are the best part of it.

 

Why do people fight (mainly)? To protect their loved ones. Why do the "bad guys" start wars? So they gain power and can indulge in their pleasures.

 

War is an effect of the passions of humans. And the strongest passion of them all is love. which involves sex.

 

So while graphic sex is not important, as yoniy0 said, not like it is something bad or something the author is doing wrong. Just the way they present it really,

 

it is also a side effect of modern Fantasy. Readers (for some reason) are demanding more of the mundane and "real life". What is one of the most important things in the majority of peoples' lives? Romantic relationships, and thus extending to sex. Why on earth people would want the mundane in Fantasy (they are practically antonyms) is beyond me, but that is another thread and another time.

[SharpDressedAsha'Man]

A description of sex is completely unnecessary and dumb. I would rather have more of some other things.

I for one would like more descriptions of the day-to-day doings of the wondergirls and their attire.