What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Elan Tedronai]

she wants to keep the seals intact at the moment because there is no plan to seal the the dark one.

 

if rand said to egwene what he planned to do after the seal smash THEN YOU WILL HAVE A POINT IF EGWENE STILL REFUSED.

 

 

 

That is wrong as she is quoted saying that Rand should defeat the DO with the seals intact. She does not want them broken as she knows nada zero nothing about them.

 

 

if you want someone on your side, the easiest way to do it is convince them using a method or a plan.

 

all rand had to do was

 

' yo egwene. i have got a plan. first i smash the seals. then i do this and i do that. this is my job. but i cant do all this without help. this is where u guys come in. you do this and you do that. mat's gonna do this. perrin is going to do that. what do you think?

 

 

that's a lot better than.

 

'i am going to smash the seals. why because i am the dragon reborn. plans? what plans? see ya. tadaa.

 

 

is it any suprise someone would suddenly get their backs up?

Edited March 26, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[XXX]

I doubt that Rand needs any help from Egwene in the entire process of actually resealing the DO by clearing away the seals..so not sure why he should explain any better?

 

I believe he will discuss the actual fighting of the armies of the dark at FoM with Egwene and the others but that is separate issue from the seals. Atleast according to Rand PoV in TOM's epilogue,there is no negotiation nor is he going to talk to Egwene about the seals in FOM.

[muddasssir]

I doubt that Rand needs any help from Egwene in the entire process of actually resealing the DO by clearing away the seals..so not sure why he should explain any better?

 

I believe he will discuss the actual fighting of the armies of the dark at FoM with Egwene and the others but that is separate issue from the seals. Atleast according to Rand PoV in TOM's epilogue,there is no negotiation nor is he going to talk to Egwene about the seals in FOM.

I doubt that Rand needs any help from Egwene in the entire process of actually resealing the DO by clearing away the seals..so not sure why he should explain any better?

 

I believe he will discuss the actual fighting of the armies of the dark at FoM with Egwene and the others but that is separate issue from the seals. Atleast according to Rand PoV in TOM's epilogue,there is no negotiation nor is he going to talk to Egwene about the seals in FOM.

If by now you do not know that i am a solid egwene hater than what can I say but there was a foretelling right at the beginning or may be it was a viewing by Min that said all of you have to be there or he will fail and all included All the people who left Emond's field that means he is going to need Egwene at TG. What i cannot remember is whether Loial was part of that foertelling or not.

[Maleshub]

If by now you do not know that i am a solid egwene hater than what can I say but there was a foretelling right at the beginning or may be it was a viewing by Min that said all of you have to be there or he will fail and all included All the people who left Emond's field that means he is going to need Egwene at TG. What i cannot remember is whether Loial was part of that foertelling or not.

 

Loial entered the books in Caemlyn, well after Min's viewing in Baerlon.

 

Another point to consider is that Ba'alzamon ordered Liandrin to secure the capture of Egwene and Nynaeve by the Seanchan as those are the ones that will help Rand at the end. It is in the dialogue prior to their fight in the sky at Falme. And Rand felt the need to go back to Falme because important threads to his life were in danger. That would be Min, Nyaenave, Elayne, and Egwene.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Theodril

[MasterAblar]

In reality we shouldn't judge either character until we see why Rand antagonized her and whether Egwene listens to reason when she hear's what the actual plan Min comes up with is. If her opposition amounts to gathering armies to the FoM for him then there isn't much reason to condemn her actions. Essentially she is waiting to hear what he says...

 

I think it's Rand reasons for breaking the seals that are important. Min's plan is not really relevant yet. Gathering the armies would have needed to be done even if Egwene was waiting to hear Rand reasons so that's not the issue either. The problem I see with her decision to oppose is that creates a conflict, and in that conflice someone is going to end up being wrong. The one it's going to hurt most is Egwene, as it's her reputation that will take a blow.

 

I don't think she is waiting to hear what he says, she is already confident that she is right. That said she won't really have a choice but to listen to what Rand says, so the outcome will be the same. It's only her intentions that are a problem, even if it won't do any real harm to anyone but the WT in the end. Which might be what Rand want's in the first place.

 

if you want someone on your side, the easiest way to do it is convince them using a method or a plan.

 

He doesn't want her on his side. Not yet at least. He provoked her on purpose.

 

is it any suprise someone would suddenly get their backs up?

 

Of course not, but she had a month's time to think things over, and she recieved new information regarding Rand, as well as opinions regarding his plan, during that time. That should have put a doubt in her mind, even if only a small one.

[XXX]

I doubt that Rand needs any help from Egwene in the entire process of actually resealing the DO by clearing away the seals..so not sure why he should explain any better?

 

I believe he will discuss the actual fighting of the armies of the dark at FoM with Egwene and the others but that is separate issue from the seals. Atleast according to Rand PoV in TOM's epilogue,there is no negotiation nor is he going to talk to Egwene about the seals in FOM.

I doubt that Rand needs any help from Egwene in the entire process of actually resealing the DO by clearing away the seals..so not sure why he should explain any better?

 

I believe he will discuss the actual fighting of the armies of the dark at FoM with Egwene and the others but that is separate issue from the seals. Atleast according to Rand PoV in TOM's epilogue,there is no negotiation nor is he going to talk to Egwene about the seals in FOM.

If by now you do not know that i am a solid egwene hater than what can I say but there was a foretelling right at the beginning or may be it was a viewing by Min that said all of you have to be there or he will fail and all included All the people who left Emond's field that means he is going to need Egwene at TG. What i cannot remember is whether Loial was part of that foertelling or not.

 

It was no foretelling and neither did it say that all are needed for the actual process of breaking the seals and resealing the bore.

 

All have played their roles in fighting the DO and it included Lan and Moir.

[Cybertrolloc]

That vision comes up several times, I wouldn't be that quick to dismiss it :)

 

Having read the paperback instead of the hardcover, I'm a good bit more charitable to most of Egwene's actions compared to people I tend to agree with in other areas. So there's that, but I'm certainly not going to compare the two texts.

 

Granted I think the first half of Egwene's tGS story was done much more effectively in 10 pages of KoD, and I'm still baffled why that was redone poorly instead of any of a dozen different plot threads getting screen time.

[Maleshub]

All have played their roles in fighting the DO and it included Lan and Moir.

 

Min's viewing that Rand will almost certainly fail without Moiraine is well established. So, stating that Moiraine's part in fighting the DO is done goes against the actual text in the books.

 

And Lan is facing an army of at least 150K shadowspawn in Tarwin's Gap; which might end up - with Rand's help - saving Shienar. And that is no small task.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Theodril

[kght22]

rand says flat out that he doesn't know how to do it yet. i agree with egwene's tripidation, of course she is going to be against breaking the seals if there isnt a known plan. but rand also addressed that, that was why we have the meeting at tfom. i think he hopes to have a plan by then, but not just that, he planned the meeting to allow egwene to consolidate whatever forces she could bring togather because he needs to talk to as large an audiance as possible.

 

(i apologize for mispellings in this post, my auto word check isnt working right now for some reason and it is allot easier to know if something is spelled wrong when it has a big red line under it)

Edited March 27, 2012 by Testy al'Carr

[XXX]

All have played their roles in fighting the DO and it included Lan and Moir.

 

Min's viewing that Rand will almost certainly fail without Moiraine is well established. So, stating that Moiraine's part in fighting the DO is done goes against the actual text in the books.

 

And Lan is facing an army of at least 150K shadowspawn in Tarwin's Gap; which might end up - with Rand's help - saving Shienar. And that is no small task.

 

Never said Egwene or Lan is not doing her part..but is she needed to actually reseal the DO?. I do not think so.

Rand needs to probably do something with Callander and 2 women. One is Ny, the other most probably will be Moir.

[Guest PiotrekS]

About the refusal of Latra Posae's faction to participate in LTT-led effort to seal the DO, i think there is a thing everybody is missing here. The difference in the plans did not concern the fact that LTT's involved touching Saidin to the DO and therfore risked getting it tainted. As it has been rightly pointed out, nobody then could foresee what would happen -neither LTT, nor Latra.

 

Her plan as well involved touching the One Power to the DO - the difference was the time (later), place (not straight at the Bore, but around the Shayol Ghul) and the amount of Power used (much more because of the power of sa'angreals). Therefore, even discounting most obvious reasons why it was useless (ter'angreals were lost and there was no time left), the plan would probably have led to equally bad or even worse effects.

 

There is no way to make a barrier with the One Power that the DO wouldn't touch - a barrier must come in contact with the person it is supposed to work against, right? Otherwise it is no barrier. Therefore, the barrier built with the use of the Choedan Kal would also lead at least to the tainting of both Powers used and might even fail to hold the DO at all, because it is obviously more difficult to block the large area than only the Bore...

 

Therefore, Latra's refusal was fortunate, but it doesn't really mean she knew what she was doing then. One of the reasons it was fortunate is that her own terrible plan was left unused.

[Maleshub]

Never said Egwene or Lan is not doing her part..but is she needed to actually reseal the DO?. I do not think so.

Rand needs to probably do something with Callander and 2 women. One is Ny, the other most probably will be Moir.

 

But Min isn't so sure of the Callandor option. She's expressed her reservations and hinted that Callandor will leave Rand open to attack. And Rand acknowledges that he's missing something.

 

Regarding the Callandor circle, I have a hunch that Rand will have to rely on 1) Aviendha and 2) Elayne or Moiraine (if Elayne's pregnancy interferes). Might sound strange; but it is a hunch.

[Suttree]

About the refusal of Latra Posae's faction to participate in LTT-led effort to seal the DO, i think there is a thing everybody is missing here. The difference in the plans did not concern the fact that LTT's involved touching Saidin to the DO and therfore risked getting it tainted. As it has been rightly pointed out, nobody then could foresee what would happen -neither LTT, nor Latra.

 

Her plan as well involved touching the One Power to the DO - the difference was the time (later), place (not straight at the Bore, but around the Shayol Ghul) and the amount of Power used (much more because of the power of sa'angreals). Therefore, even discounting most obvious reasons why it was useless (ter'angreals were lost and there was no time left), the plan would probably have led to equally bad or even worse effects.

 

There is no way to make a barrier with the One Power that the DO wouldn't touch - a barrier must come in contact with the person it is supposed to work against, right? Otherwise it is no barrier.

 

I'm not sure I get your meaning here? Why would the barrier have needed to touch the DO? The only reason LTT's version did is because they needed to touch the bore. LTP wanted to erect a barrier around the bore but was not going to touch it.

 

Never said Egwene or Lan is not doing her part..but is she needed to actually reseal the DO?

 

No but what you did say is "all have played their roles" as if their job is done. We know this to not be the case. At some point you need to set your peevish fantasies aside. Far better for Rand to be open about what he is doing and discuss his course of action so everyone is on the same page. Yes, we know...Eg might not be directly involved with fixing the prison. That changes nothing.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Suttree

[randsc]

Egwene is acting both as Rand wants, and, importantly, as the Pattern requires. Have you considered the possibilty that Rand himself had no real choice in how to proceed? Being ta'veren is not a personal skill that can be employed at will. It is being a focal point around which the Wheel twists the Pattern. There is no true agency in the world of the WoT.

 

Egwene was clearly caught in a ta'verens grip during her confrontation with Rand, and therefore should be absolved for any blame for that comfrontation, irritating as she was during it.

 

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

[Maleshub]

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

 

As the books stand right now, the same could be said about a few things that Rand should have done and is likely to have done; but we're not told about directly.

 

Even without that, any meaningful research would require Cadsuane and Callandor (and Min) to be in the WT to participate in the research. Any "Literature" research would not suffice. Meaningful (laboratory) research would require Callandor to be used and experimented with. And the key to that is Rand, not Egwene!

[Suttree]

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

 

Yeah, I've always thought Rand should have put Cads and Min together with the Browns in the WT library in order to figure out the plan.

[randsc]

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

 

As the books stand right now, the same could be said about a few things that Rand should have done and is likely to have done; but we're not told about directly.

 

Even without that, any meaningful research would require Cadsuane and Callandor (and Min) to be in the WT to participate in the research. Any "Literature" research would not suffice. Meaningful (laboratory) research would require Callandor to be used and experimented with. And the key to that is Rand, not Egwene!

 

Possibly true. But not known to Egwene. And so, no excuse for her not trying.

[randsc]

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

 

Yeah, I've always thought Rand should have put Cads and Min together with the Browns in the WT library in order to figure out the plan.

 

Sure. But it is telling, I think, that Cads never suggested such a thing.

[Suttree]

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

 

As the books stand right now, the same could be said about a few things that Rand should have done and is likely to have done; but we're not told about directly.

 

Even without that, any meaningful research would require Cadsuane and Callandor (and Min) to be in the WT to participate in the research. Any "Literature" research would not suffice. Meaningful (laboratory) research would require Callandor to be used and experimented with. And the key to that is Rand, not Egwene!

 

Possibly true. But not known to Egwene. And so, no excuse for her not trying.

 

But without Min being able to narrow down what she has been working on it just such an incredibly broad situation. What could they realistically find and how much easier would it have been if they just put everyone's heads together. After all Cads was the only way Min even knew she was correct about that Callandor point. Imagine how much better to cast a wider net with a bunch of Browns and the WT library involved.

 

Edit: You do have a point however about Cads. Although some of those Browns that spend their life in the library probably would be able to find things she hasn't. Just imagaine after all that time what the filing system must be like in that place. A similar example can be found with Kvothe searching the librbary in the TWF.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Suttree

[Guest PiotrekS]

About the refusal of Latra Posae's faction to participate in LTT-led effort to seal the DO, i think there is a thing everybody is missing here. The difference in the plans did not concern the fact that LTT's involved touching Saidin to the DO and therfore risked getting it tainted. As it has been rightly pointed out, nobody then could foresee what would happen -neither LTT, nor Latra.

 

Her plan as well involved touching the One Power to the DO - the difference was the time (later), place (not straight at the Bore, but around the Shayol Ghul) and the amount of Power used (much more because of the power of sa'angreals). Therefore, even discounting most obvious reasons why it was useless (ter'angreals were lost and there was no time left), the plan would probably have led to equally bad or even worse effects.

 

There is no way to make a barrier with the One Power that the DO wouldn't touch - a barrier must come in contact with the person it is supposed to work against, right? Otherwise it is no barrier.

 

I'm not sure I get your meaning here? Why would the barrier have needed to touch the DO? The only reason LTT's version did is because they needed to touch the bore. LTP wanted to erect a barrier around the bore but was not going to touch it.

 

Wasn't the barrier supposed to stop the DO should he break out through the bore? If so, he would touch it trying to get through it and the effect would be the same as in case of LTT's plan. If not, then what was to be the point of the barrier?

[Elan Tedronai]

sigh,

 

latra's plan was simple

 

create a barrier to stop do influence, reduce his hemorrhaging of the bore, retake the lands held by the shadow and most important of all

 

give the light respite to come up with a real full proof plan of sealing the bore.

 

 

LTT screwedup by assuming humans could fix the bore. That shit is only done by the pattern. Not LTT, not latra and certainly not the one power

[Suttree]

About the refusal of Latra Posae's faction to participate in LTT-led effort to seal the DO, i think there is a thing everybody is missing here. The difference in the plans did not concern the fact that LTT's involved touching Saidin to the DO and therfore risked getting it tainted. As it has been rightly pointed out, nobody then could foresee what would happen -neither LTT, nor Latra.

 

Her plan as well involved touching the One Power to the DO - the difference was the time (later), place (not straight at the Bore, but around the Shayol Ghul) and the amount of Power used (much more because of the power of sa'angreals). Therefore, even discounting most obvious reasons why it was useless (ter'angreals were lost and there was no time left), the plan would probably have led to equally bad or even worse effects.

 

There is no way to make a barrier with the One Power that the DO wouldn't touch - a barrier must come in contact with the person it is supposed to work against, right? Otherwise it is no barrier.

 

I'm not sure I get your meaning here? Why would the barrier have needed to touch the DO? The only reason LTT's version did is because they needed to touch the bore. LTP wanted to erect a barrier around the bore but was not going to touch it.

 

Wasn't the barrier supposed to stop the DO should he break out through the bore? If so, he would touch it trying to get through it and the effect would be the same as in case of LTT's plan. If not, then what was to be the point of the barrier?

 

He would only touch the barrier if he broke free inside where it had been erected. As long as there wasn't a connection at the exact time that they were actually doing the original weaving it would have been fine.

 

I wan't to make clear I don't think this is a great plan either and while it presents it's own set of problems it mosty certainly wouldn't have led to both Saidar and Saidin being tainted.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

 

No but what you did say is "all have played their roles" as if their job is done. We know this to not be the case. At some point you need to set your peevish fantasies aside. Far better for Rand to be open about what he is doing and discuss his course of action so everyone is on the same page. Yes, we know...Eg might not be directly involved with fixing the prison. That changes nothing.

 

Why should Rand discuss his plans on breaking the seals and resealing the DO with Egwene if she is not going to play any role in the process? To massage her ego? Or because she is the "watcher of the seals"?

 

At FOM he will tell everyone not just Egwene what to do in the meantime when he is resealing the DO.

[Elan Tedronai]

No but what you did say is "all have played their roles" as if their job is done. We know this to not be the case. At some point you need to set your peevish fantasies aside. Far better for Rand to be open about what he is doing and discuss his course of action so everyone is on the same page. Yes, we know...Eg might not be directly involved with fixing the prison. That changes nothing.

 

Why should Rand discuss his plans on breaking the seals and resealing the DO with Egwene if she is not going to play any role in the process? To massage her ego? Or because she is the "watcher of the seals"?

 

At FOM he will tell everyone not just Egwene what to do in the meantime when he is resealing the DO.

 

there is no role.

 

she asked him what his plans and he flat out refused to share them. so there is no role. sometimes it helps if you actually read that passage without rand al thor fanboy goggles

 

 

ofcourse we the reader know the truth. he has no plan. apart from smashing the seals and begging min for some clue

[Durinax]

No but what you did say is "all have played their roles" as if their job is done. We know this to not be the case. At some point you need to set your peevish fantasies aside. Far better for Rand to be open about what he is doing and discuss his course of action so everyone is on the same page. Yes, we know...Eg might not be directly involved with fixing the prison. That changes nothing.

 

Why should Rand discuss his plans on breaking the seals and resealing the DO with Egwene if she is not going to play any role in the process? To massage her ego? Or because she is the "watcher of the seals"?

 

At FOM he will tell everyone not just Egwene what to do in the meantime when he is resealing the DO.

 

there is no role.

 

she asked him what his plans and he flat out refused to share them. so there is no role. sometimes it helps if you actually read that passage without rand al thor fanboy goggles

 

 

ofcourse we the reader know the truth. he has no plan. apart from smashing the seals and begging min for some clue

actually he does have a plan (his old one) so worst comes to worst he can use that again. But what he did was cleverly lit a fire under the AS to get geared up for TG.