What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[kght22]

Yar we have had this discussion before I am sorry for repeating myself. Let us take a parallel We have already seen that Seafolk girl running away to join WT. How many novices have run to join SF or the aiels? Tar Valon is the greatest city in the world, how many young apprentices will not carry the memory of it with them back to their ships and sandy hovels how many of them will be able to resist it? If you do not believe me look at the stats from Africa and Asia to US and Europe. We do not even have a comparable fraction of people moving from US and Europe to Africa or Asia. She is counting on exactly that effect to hold the hearts and minds of future WOs and SF channelers. That was exactly what she alluded to when she said, "I will bind you with silk" or something to that effect. Now try reading them together that she will want to come these provincial young women to world's greatest metropolis and she wants her sophisticated initiates to go live in their hovels and ships. I for one cannot read it as a benevolent move to promote harmony and peace and understanding.

she is in fact hoping they they will rub off on each other. she is as disgusted at the method of hierarchy in the aes sedai as any other. she wants the cultures to mingle. if you are saying that the as culture will overpower the home culture you are showing a lack of confidence in the home culture, it is an equal exchage, and they are all STRONG cultures of creating STRONG women. the question will be where do the males fit in?

[muddasssir]

Refute me with stats show me how many people Go from Europe or U.S.A to live in say Somalia Or pick any other country from third world. People in those countries love their countries and they are absolutely good people, but someone used to standard of living in a westren world cannot live their very long. Maybe a few days as an adventure, but not to live their. If you think my idea is ridiciulous go ask any of the immigrants clogging the streets of New York, London or Any other city of Europe that how many of then will like to go back to their countries?

Edited October 26, 2012 by muddasssir

[David Selig]

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Edited October 26, 2012 by David Selig

[kght22]

Yar we have had this discussion before I am sorry for repeating myself. Let us take a parallel We have already seen that Seafolk girl running away to join WT. How many novices have run to join SF or the aiels? Tar Valon is the greatest city in the world, how many young apprentices will not carry the memory of it with them back to their ships and sandy hovels how many of them will be able to resist it? If you do not believe me look at the stats from Africa and Asia to US and Europe. We do not even have a comparable fraction of people moving from US and Europe to Africa or Asia. She is counting on exactly that effect to hold the hearts and minds of future WOs and SF channelers. That was exactly what she alluded to when she said, "I will bind you with silk" or something to that effect. Now try reading them together that she will want to come these provincial young women to world's greatest metropolis and she wants her sophisticated initiates to go live in their hovels and ships. I for one cannot read it as a benevolent move to promote harmony and peace and understanding.

 

You have already been thoroughly disabused of this notion many times over, by numerous people in the past. honestly if that is the best you can come up with in stating the deal is not fair why even join in the debate? WFs and their deep rooted love of the sea will not be tempted by a metropolis in the slightest. We have seen nothing from the Aiel to show they prefer big cities. How many of both groups decided to abandon their people and stay in Andor after being stationed there for a time?

 

well sutt that argument is that one may have, because they had an overbearing and over enthusiastic relative. i still wonder where that wf apprentice went. and why. but we don't know, making that argument moot. she might be dead.

[muddasssir]

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Exactly what I am saying, but does that make her a good, just or a like able person? I can say for myself. NO!

[muddasssir]

One more thing when they live in Andor they are living in their tents, among their own people with a little or no chance of being influenced by any outsider. We have already seen that Sf girl wanting to run away to become an AS so there is a precedence.

[Suttree]

Refute me with stats show me how many people Go from Europe or U.S.A to live in say Somalia Or pick any other country from third world. People in those countries love their countries and they are absolutely good people, but someone used to standard of living in a westren world cannot live their very long. Maybe a few days as an adventure, but not to live their. If you think my idea is ridiciulous go ask any of the immigrants clogging the streets of New York, London or Any other city of Europe that how many of then will like to go back to their countries?

 

I edited my response. See it again and address it if you care to continue the discussion. AS an aside many cultures from Asia and Africa would be totally offended by your assertion.

 

I will say this once again however. They made a rule that each exchange student MUST return to their people for a time to combat the very thing you are saying. If what you are saying was Egwene's intent why would she put that provision in? So no it isn't a valid point in the slightest. Further WFs as a whole will not want to abandon the sea, Aiel will not want to abandon their clan and people. If anyting the WT will lose more accepted to the othe cultures unless things change for the better quickly.

 

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Exactly what I am saying, but does that make her a good, just or a like able person? I can say for myself. NO!

 

You still have done absolutely nothing to show how the deal is unfair, gives the AS an advantage and binds the other groups against their will to the WT.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Suttree

[kght22]

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Exactly what I am saying, but does that make her a good, just or a like able person? I can say for myself. NO!

that would have nothing to do with her as a person, it would have to do with her as a leader. the white tower as an accepted wouldn't be a very nice place without good leadership, nor would being an wiseone apprentice or a windfinder apprentice, and based on the way they speak to eachother, none of them are supposed to be very "nice" places, they are supposed to be tough rigorous schools. if anything they will compete to make tougher students.

 

and sutt makes a great point. the student must return home after. they will be allowed a choice later.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Testy al'Carr

[kght22]

You still have done absolutely nothing to show how the dial is unfair, gives the AS an advantage and binds the other groups against their will to the WT.

well it does bind them to the wt, but it also binds the wt to the wise ones, and the wise ones to the wave mistresses, it binds them all together, none directly above the other. the only way the white tower has an advantage is if you think that the white tower is superior to the others some how, which is pretty dumb (not you sutt, just those who think it is a lopsided deal)

[muddasssir]

Problem with you people is that you are talking from an academic POV and I am talking from experience. Let me stretch the analogy,. Do you have any idea how many students who come to U.S.A for studying on scholarships from different countries go back to settle in U.S.A after they have served their bonded terms? I do. nearly 90% of them and this is not a joke. Out of my session of 260 students 45 of us went to study In U.S.A and Europe on different scholarships. I am the only one left in Pakistan all others are living and working in Europe and US they only comeback for visits and holidays. Thereofre. I am sorry, but you are not qualified t pass a judgement on a situation you know nothing about. As, I said before. Go and check the stats.

[kght22]

Problem with you people is that you are talking from an academic POV and I am talking from experience. Let me stretch the analogy,. Do you have any idea how many students who come to U.S.A for studying on scholarships from different countries go back to settle in U.S.A after they have served their bonded terms? I do. nearly 90% of them and this is not a joke. Out of my session of 260 students 45 of us went to study In U.S.A and Europe on different scholarships. I am the only one left in Pakistan all others are living and working in Europe and US they only comeback for visits and holidays. Thereofre. I am sorry, but you are not qualified t pass a judgement on a situation you know nothing about. As, I said before. Go and check the stats.

you are attempting to equate the real world to fantasy land. in fantasy land they are very safe and highly respected in the initial homes, in the real world....

[kght22]

Problem with you people is that you are talking from an academic POV and I am talking from experience. Let me stretch the analogy,. Do you have any idea how many students who come to U.S.A for studying on scholarships from different countries go back to settle in U.S.A after they have served their bonded terms? I do. nearly 90% of them and this is not a joke. Out of my session of 260 students 45 of us went to study In U.S.A and Europe on different scholarships. I am the only one left in Pakistan all others are living and working in Europe and US they only comeback for visits and holidays. Thereofre. I am sorry, but you are not qualified t pass a judgement on a situation you know nothing about. As, I said before. Go and check the stats.

i can't even begin to understand what is going on in pakistan, but i do know that it makes the mess that is my country look squeaky clean. but it is not the same situation in the westlands (randland) or on their world.

[Suttree]

Problem with you people is that you are talking from an academic POV and I am talking from experience. Let me stretch the analogy,. Do you have any idea how many students who come to U.S.A for studying on scholarships from different countries go back to settle in U.S.A after they have served their bonded terms? I do. nearly 90% of them and this is not a joke. Out of my session of 260 students 45 of us went to study In U.S.A and Europe on different scholarships. I am the only one left in Pakistan all others are living and working in Europe and US they only comeback for visits and holidays. Thereofre. I am sorry, but you are not qualified t pass a judgement on a situation you know nothing about. As, I said before. Go and check the stats.

 

Mudd that is a bummer and let me say I sympathize and know you must feel strongly about this. Regardless as I've said three times now Egwene put in a clause that people MUST return home for a significant period of time after training to avoid this very problem. Why would she do that if what you claim is true. Secondly what is happening in your country at present is not in anyway comparable to the state of WF or WO culture.

[muddasssir]

That is what I am telling you these people come back, but cannot stay back. They get used to opulence for want of a better word. I do not know about the intent of the writers, but she is a provincial and she knows exactly how other provincials will believe. Why do you people want to ignore the line "I will tie you with bonds of silk". What does it mean?

 

PS I do not want to make it political I used Pakistan as an example and let us leave it at that.

[Suttree]

Why do you people want to ignore the line "I will tie you with bonds of silk". What does it mean?

 

Why are we going over this again? As has been explained many times to you Mudd no one is contesting that all three groups will be jockeying for control within the framework of the deal. They all know this going in hence the "will have to play best" quote I provided above. Sorilea, whoever leads the WFs, and Eggy would all be remiss as leaders if they weren't lookin to the best interests of their people once entered into the contract. That does nothing to change the fact that the deal gives all groups an equal shot and is fair. Egwene would not have built in the return clause if what you say is true and again Sea Folk and Aiel culture have none of the issues that current day Pakistan is facing. Further you have done nothing to show that the channelers in both groups are discontented enough with their current situation to abandon their people only to stay in a city which they can visit by gateway at a thought any time they wish. No the very idea is preposterous.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Suttree

[muddasssir]

oh really? I mean have you ever heard of a thing called bleakness. That chapter about the toh that could never be met what was her name Nakaomi or whatever. Do you not think that serving Aes Sedais and being one of them will not lighten up their toh? Yes, I know what the WOs think, but we are talking about a new generation of people. Eggy knows they have issues and she is out to exploit it as well as she can. I at least always read that making AS DaSatang was a part of an attempt by the WOs to undermine them. To make an average Aiel feel that AS are not a big deal. Eggy knows all that and she is taking advantage of their insecurities.

[Suttree]

I at least always read that making AS DaSatang was a part of an attempt by the WOs to undermine them. To make an average Aiel feel that AS are not a big deal. Eggy knows all that and she is taking advantage of their insecurities.

 

Well then you always read wrong because they did not declare all AS datsang. They only did so to those who kidnapped Rand. You seriously are sounding like a conspiracy theorist at this point. It's approaching Felix Pax/Dida territory. Give over mate.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Suttree

[Elan Tedronai]

yar sut we have had this discussion a million times at least well subtract few hundreds but we have all agreed that she has had a very shoddy character development both from RJ and BS. She was an unlikeable character right form the beginning, but so were so many other characters. I mean Mat would not have been among anyone's favorite character in first three books. For me at least his first best scene was his fight with Galad and Gawyn. Look at him I can bet he is among the top three characters for almost 90% of the posters. There are other characters like nyn, Siuan was very overbearing at the beginning, but she is again a well liked character now. I think it was ELRIC IN AN EARLIER POST WHO POINTED OUT QUITE RIGHTLY THAT EVERY CHARACTER HAS AN ALTER EGO THAT SERVES TO BRING HIM or her DOWN A COUPLE OF PEGS WHEN HE or she STARTS GETTING TOO BIG FOR HER BREACHES. Eggy on the other hand does not allow anyone that privilege. So the fans take it upon themselves to play that role

 

 

speak for yourself. Egwene's character arc took off from book 6 till book 12. I say book 12 because the egwene portrayed in TGS was mainly RJ.

 

She tanked in other parts but that's no suprise given that we are dealing with an inept author called sanderson

[elric]

Mudd

 

i fear your logic have 1 fundamental flow.

u assume that WT is the HEIGHT of modern society and that the WF /Aiel live in 3rd world condition.

 

where it say so ???

 

the WF are a culture of MERCHENTS , very successfull merchect (probably the best in the world) why u assume they leave in bad conditions ?

we only seen them on buisness trips , we dont know how well they leave when at their homes.

 

how worse is the life of an Aiel wiseone in compare to Tar-Valon ??

there no electricity or moden utilities in Randland so there no discomfort of missing it.

with Traveling the distance is not relavent anymore so no discomfort about beeing cut off from the world, or from lacking access to certain products/groceries.

u tlk about the glamour of TV , but what about Ruheidin , give the Ogeir few years and Aiel Channelers and u got a city who can compete with any other city in this area as well.

 

 

that why your analogy of Europe/USA and the 3rd world countries dont apply here

(and that WITHOUT entering political things like civil rights , goverments systems, religion and state...)

Edited October 26, 2012 by elric

[muddasssir]

You people are missing the most fundamental point Do you think Mogadisu, Lahore or any other third world country do not have basic amenities like electricity, wireless phones or other basic necessities? Sorry to disabuse you, but they have the basic necessities. They are treated there as venerated and respected citizens. Everyone loves and respects them. they just cannot adjust into that society. I t seems to provincial to them, it is not the matter of facilities, which are nearly as good as anywhere else in the world.At least for these foreign qualifies professionals. What they do not get there is the sense of camaraderie that they developed with their peers at their boarding schools. We are going of on a tangent. As i said before it was just an example s to how the girls coming from those backgrounds would see it. Remember it was in Eggy's POV that going through WT's training was a breeze when compared to way Aiel's treated their apprentices. Similarly, when you talk about SF, you are talking about ship mistresses, there wind finders and masters of blades. Who are the elite of their society. Deck hands do not get treated like that. Case in point is the only Apprentice that comes in contact with WT culture wants to join it. I am not talking about BS here. I am talking about That scene which was written by RJ I think and name of the girl was Talaan from memory. She wanted to leave the SFs and go to Tar Valon to study. I mean most of us have been following Rj and Wot near to two decades. Have you ever seen him mentioning anything without reason? For me that was very subtle foreshadowing for things to come. He was setting the stage for this scene. Why I love this world is due to its intricacy and small details. It has a lot of grey areas. We see Good guys doing bad things and bad guys doing good things. Eggy personifies these paradoxes. She is a brilliant leader at one moment and complete jerk in next. In my opinion all of you people who insist on her Mary Sueness are doing a disservice both to her as a character and RJ as a writer. I have said it before that I would not change anything about this series if I have a choice. I hated the long waits and pages of dresses smoothing and wrinkled brows as much as the next guy, but without them this series would have been just another fantasy series,. We are debating it here shows that it is not and we disagreeing on the interpretation of character is a tribute to RJ and his writing prowess. I still think that he wrote this character deliberately like that. He wanted Eggy's personality to have that ambiguity.

[elric]

what make u think the WF are provincial ???

they travel and interact more then any other society in Randland.

 

true Taleen wanted to run, but it wasnt to run TO the WT is was to run FROM the WF who abused her just to show there is no favoratism.

and remember Egy assumption that the WF sisters will run back to the seafalk and that after YEARS of beeing in WT.

 

the Aiel also not as provincial as u percieve, remember the peddler scene where it was shown that they have knowledge and understanding about the wetland /prices / quality of products....

and again Traveling change ALOT.

if u had the ability to go everywhere in the world in a blink of an eye, will you leave in the city center of in your home with family and friends.

 

about WT training beeing a breeze...

is it a good thing ???

will u prefare to learn in a party college or in an Ivy League college ?

will u prefare to learn in a place that hold you back , or in a place that push you and allow you faster and greater access to the one power.

 

and will you prefare a society that value your skill and brain or a society that value your muscle (one power streangth) ?

 

.

Edited October 26, 2012 by elric

[shortkut]

yar sut we have had this discussion a million times at least well subtract few hundreds but we have all agreed that she has had a very shoddy character development both from RJ and BS. She was an unlikeable character right form the beginning, but so were so many other characters. I mean Mat would not have been among anyone's favorite character in first three books. For me at least his first best scene was his fight with Galad and Gawyn. Look at him I can bet he is among the top three characters for almost 90% of the posters. There are other characters like nyn, Siuan was very overbearing at the beginning, but she is again a well liked character now. I think it was ELRIC IN AN EARLIER POST WHO POINTED OUT QUITE RIGHTLY THAT EVERY CHARACTER HAS AN ALTER EGO THAT SERVES TO BRING HIM or her DOWN A COUPLE OF PEGS WHEN HE or she STARTS GETTING TOO BIG FOR HER BREACHES. Eggy on the other hand does not allow anyone that privilege. So the fans take it upon themselves to play that role

 

 

speak for yourself. Egwene's character arc took off from book 6 till book 12. I say book 12 because the egwene portrayed in TGS was mainly RJ.

 

She tanked in other parts but that's no suprise given that we are dealing with an inept author called sanderson

so basically RJ is to blame? My biggest issue in ToM was her scenes with gawyn. Everything else was a continuation from tGS or earlier :-(

[Suttree]

true Taleen wanted to run, but it wasnt to run TO the WT is was to run FROM the WF who abused her just to show there is no favoratism.

and remember Egy assumption that the WF sisters will run back to the seafalk and that after YEARS of beeing in WT.

 

Very good point Elric. The Sea Folk AS are all returning to their people despite all the time in the WT. After Many many years. Sorry Mudd but yor point has been shot full of wholes much like it was the first time it was brought up. There is a clause built into the contract to specifically combat this. Egwene would not have included if her intent was what you say. Further we have concrete examples of Sea Folk doing the exact opposite if what you claim. These cultures are not comparable in the slightest to the real world examples you give.

 

Btw what ever made you think that sea folk live in "sandy hovels"? They are easily one of the wealthiest cultures in the world.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Suttree

[Yosarian]

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Exactly what I am saying, but does that make her a good, just or a like able person? I can say for myself. NO!

 

Egwene's duty is to make the White Tower strong and unified and then bring it whole and united to fight in the Last Battle on the side of Rand. If she accomplishes nothing else, she's still done her job.

 

I think she is going to accomplish more then that, though. I think she is in the process of re-making the White Tower into something that is going to be in the long run a more stable, more ethical, and more open institution, that with better relations with the rest of the world (and probably even with the Whitecloaks).

[Yosarian]

She tanked in other parts but that's no suprise given that we are dealing with an inept author called sanderson

 

I have to say that I couldn't disagree more with all the Sanderson hate on this board. He's not Robert Jordan, and he's not trying to be, but he's a good author, and the series as a whole is made so much better because of books 12 and 13 then if it had ended on book 11. Give the man a break; not many people would be willing to try to do what he's doing, and fewer could do it as well as he is.