Sanderson Moments

[MrMatrim]

The one which really jarred me out of the story was in TGS, in the last Mat chapter, where he thinks about the "devil bench". I don't think the word "devil" has EVER been used in the WoT until that point. Devils, demons, etc. just don't seem to fit into the WoT mythos to me.

 

This bugged me a little too, because RJ used these words as the basis of the Trolloc tribes.

 

Ahf'frait = Afrit

Al'ghol = Ghoul

Bhan'sheen = Banshee

Dha'vol = Devil

Dhai'mon = Demon

Dhjin'nen = Djin

Ghar'gael = Gargoyle

Ghob'hlin = Goblin

Gho'hlem = Golem

Ghraem'lan = Gremlin

Ko'bal = Kobold

Kno'mon = Gnome

 

I mean it's plausible they were named after the myths... but yeah it strikes wrong with me.

 

Wow, I have to admit I am surprised, but "devil" was used twice just in TEOTW alone. Chapters 18 and 26.

 

 

Fish

 

It was only used in tEoTW, there is twice a mention of the wind whipping up "dustdevils". Ideal Seek doesn't show any others...

 

Huh, "dustdevils". I completely forgot about that. Granted, it's not quite the use of the word I was thinking of, but thanks for finding that!

[The Fisher King]

You have to be pretty ... forgiving ... with Brandon at the helm. I look and search for any small thing, any microscopic pretext I can cling to that helps me swallow a Sandersonism without totally pulling my hair out. You understand? If "Dustdevils" was used by Rj twice 22 Years ago, then, hey, good enough for me, lol.

 

 

Fish

[MrMatrim]

Oh, I'm very forgiving. I've enjoyed both of the books so far. I figured that someone writing a story in someone else's world, using someone else's characters, whose personalities are colored by a man who was in a different stage of his life, and with vastly different life experiences, would result in a few differences (aka "culture clashes", if you will) here and there. By its very nature, I expected a few parts to sound and read very "Sanderson-esque", especially in the middle book.

 

For the most part, I still see the characters as true in the core....while RJ may have had them say things a little differently, I personally have not read a spot where I thought "So-and-so just would not DO that".

 

I do believe that knowing that two different authors wrote these last two books HAS ratcheted up our sensitivity to the word choices. I found myself doing it too--just by my nature, I WANTED to see if I could tell who wrote what. At times, it may have made me hypersensitive and taken away from the enjoyment of the story.

 

All that being said, I've enjoyed all of Brandon's works, and am looking forward to aMoL.

[badumboom]

The last two books seem to refer to gateways as portals an awefull lot. Seems a little off to me... One character's pov describing it that way woudn't have been a big deal, but it is used over and over.... don't really hate it, just noticed it

[yoniy0]

Mine is this. Experience tells me that I'm the only one who thinks it's wrong, though, so let's see if someone (who hasn't heard me fret about it before) can pick it up:

Once Galad was done, he asked after the Succession war. Conversing with Galad was often like this: an exchange, more formal than familiar. Once, it had frustrated her, but this time she found that - against her better wishes - she'd actually been missing him. So she listened with fondness.

[Sid]

Reading Sanderson is often like this: disjointed, with numerous digressions. Often, the character's conversations - and even their inner thoughts - just cannot seem to flow seamlessly (or even close to seamlessly in many cases) in the way RJ's writing style (which I greatly prefer) illustrated.

[safwd]

Not to hijack the thread but here is a RJ moment (and i love RJ so not a bash).

 

Rereading TGS, mainly to see if i can catch all the problem areas that everyone is talking about.

Egwene is cracking walnuts for 3 whites in the white sitters room (i dont recall her name). RJ (i know it was him) writes a rather long paragragh describing the whites room. A room that we never go into again. That portion of the story would have worked fine without the narative on how this chick likes to decorate.

 

I love RJs writing style and being descriptive is great, but sometimes he went a bit far with it.

[Terez]

Mine is this. Experience tells me that I'm the only one who thinks it's wrong, though, so let's see if someone (who hasn't heard me fret about it before) can pick it up:

Once Galad was done, he asked after the Succession war. Conversing with Galad was often like this: an exchange, more formal than familiar. Once, it had frustrated her, but this time she found that - against her better wishes - she'd actually been missing him. So she listened with fondness.

Yes, Elayne shouldn't have thought of it as a Succession, since Elayne was Daughter-Heir. I believe she had this conversation previously with Dyelin. Too lazy to look it up. I remember Dyelin saying 'Trakand succeeds Trakand', though.

[The Fisher King]

Mine is this. Experience tells me that I'm the only one who thinks it's wrong, though, so let's see if someone (who hasn't heard me fret about it before) can pick it up:

Once Galad was done, he asked after the Succession war. Conversing with Galad was often like this: an exchange, more formal than familiar. Once, it had frustrated her, but this time she found that - against her better wishes - she'd actually been missing him. So she listened with fondness.

Yes, Elayne shouldn't have thought of it as a Succession, since Elayne was Daughter-Heir. I believe she had this conversation previously with Dyelin. Too lazy to look it up. I remember Dyelin saying 'Trakand succeeds Trakand', though.

 

I agree. However, if she were remembering how GALAD referred to it, I can maybe see it.

 

Of course, seeing as how Galad was raised a prince of Andor, it seems a bit odd that he'd refer to it that way as well...

 

 

Fish

[LeeM.Erickson]

Yeah, that's kind of one of those Sanderson "How-does-Ituralde-know-what-a-Deathgate-is-called" moments

[metalisticpain]

Yeah, that's kind of one of those Sanderson "How-does-Ituralde-know-what-a-Deathgate-is-called" moments

 

I am content with the explanation someone put forward, that he would have interrogated the Ashaman to know exactly what they can and cant do in order to utilize them in battle. And from those discussions would have learnt the names for the weaves etc.

 

The letter was a bit weird, a bit too over the top. However it did not ruin it for me. I knew what was being put across to the reader.

[BrainFireBob]

Let's be honest- the issue isn't the letter, it's that Sanderson understands pre-EotW Mat and doesn't understand PTSD post-memories grizzled soldier-escapism lifetstyle Mat.

 

He gets the humor, but not the layers of discipline and cynicism.

[yoniy0]

Actually, I think the issue is that Sanderson is still very much the goof (I mean that in the best of ways). I love his writing, but he just doesn't do humor well. When he tries, he tends to spaz.

[Treemaster]

Not to hijack the thread but here is a RJ moment (and i love RJ so not a bash).

 

Rereading TGS, mainly to see if i can catch all the problem areas that everyone is talking about.

Egwene is cracking walnuts for 3 whites in the white sitters room (i dont recall her name). RJ (i know it was him) writes a rather long paragragh describing the whites room. A room that we never go into again. That portion of the story would have worked fine without the narative on how this chick likes to decorate.

 

I love RJs writing style and being descriptive is great, but sometimes he went a bit far with it.

 

I actually quite liked that description. The Aes Sedai are almost farcical -- silly and petty -- by the time we get to The Gathering Storm. This description reminds us that there is a reason that the Aes Sedai are feared by the general populace, and helps bring back at least a little of the aura the Aes Sedai had in The Eye of the World. The Aes Sedai needed some propping up, and this scene was a subtle way to do that.

 

Many times Jordan's descriptions are unneessary and pointless, but I didn't see this as one of them.

 

With regard to Sanderson moments, I can't point out specific words because I don't have access to the books right now and my memory is not that good. But I would pick the following as the good and the bad:

 

Good -- Sanderson makes all the female characters more round and less stereotypical.

 

Bad -- the much-discussed Mat letter in the Towers of Midnight. I don't like the Hinderstap episode either, but while I agree that Brandon probably wrote all of it, I expect that he was asked to do so, to avoid fan outrage by including some Mat content in The Gathering Storm. (Brandon and Tor would have been better off ignoring the fans entirely, in my opinion, and to not include any Mat or Perrin content, but that's another topic for another day.)

[Treemaster]

Actually, I think the issue is that Sanderson is still very much the goof (I mean that in the best of ways). I love his writing, but he just doesn't do humor well. When he tries, he tends to spaz.

 

I haven't read all of Sanderson's works, but I actually found Lightsong and Shallan to be funny. I didn't much like the Shallon sections in general, maybe because I was much more interested in the other characters, especially Dalinar, but she did have some witty comments.

 

I don't think Sanderson's humour in the Wheel of Time works that well. His sense of humour is probably just too different from Jordan's.

[Terez]

I think that the Hinderstap episode was probably designated as "Mat goes into a town to buy supplies, learns a mysterious woman is looking for him, and experiences some horrible bubble of evil with his men, maybe something along the lines of So Habor", rather than as detailed as all that. Brandon said on tour that he was trying to parallel the Stone Soup legend, which indicates that the details were his.

[yoniy0]

I actually found Lightsong and Shallan to be funny.

The same kind of funny. Youthful, sarcastic wit. On Shallan it's perfectly understandable, and on Elend and Vin, Dennison and Siri as well, but not Breeze, nor Wax and Wayne. Ignoring the fact that it always feels the same, for all of these characters (which makes me think it's simply Brandon's own sort of funny), it's really not in line with RJ's style, as you say.

 

And still, I don't mind the style differences as much as I do when someone actually does something that they shouldn't.

[Treemaster]

I actually found Lightsong and Shallan to be funny.

The same kind of funny. Youthful, sarcastic wit. On Shallan it's perfectly understandable, and on Elend and Vin, Dennison and Siri as well, but not Breeze, nor Wax and Wayne. Ignoring the fact that it always feels the same, for all of these characters (which makes me think it's simply Brandon's own sort of funny), it's really not in line with RJ's style, as you say.

 

And still, I don't mind the style differences as much as I do when someone actually does something that they shouldn't.

 

I haven't read the books in which Breeze, Wax, and Wayne appear -- I'm not familiar with those characters. So we probably agree on this one too.

[Agitel]

I actually thought The Alloy of Law showcased Sanderson's improvement in writing humor very well. It's better executed than in any of his previous writings.

[A. Pseudonym]

I wouldn't highlight a particular quote as being a Sanderson moment. For me, whole sections, whole character perspectives are palpably more primitively and juvenilely written.

 

Gawyn, Siuan and Bryne are the worst. Gawyn's posturing performance in the rebel camp, picking fights with guards and arguing with the father-figure of Bryne just reminds me of the Eddings style of self-indulgent, thoughtless author insertion. I know you're a nerd, Sanderson. You don't need to vicariously compensate for that through an imaginary fantasy character.

 

Between Siuan and Bryne, as written by Sanderson, there is a sort of smarmy cameraderie which turns 2 long and well established characters into flat cardboard cut-out bit players whose existence in the book is solely for the purpose of tying up loose ends. If that.

 

I could go on, and have done before. There's Cadsuane and Mat in general, Mat's letter to Elayne (which was just offensive), Tam and Cadsuane's confrontation. Talmanes becoming comic relief, Sanderson's sad attempts at humour, Hinderstap. There's the bizarre timeline discontinuities between the various books where some characters are ahead of others, etc.

Now, there's a gratitude for the fact that this series is being finished and leads to an urge to defend this man from being called a bad writer. But.... it doesn't change the fact that he is a bad writer. He's a hack who got lucky in that he's milking publicity for his own work on the back of Jordan.

I'm reminded of Kevin J. Anderson who did a similar effort with Dune and Gentry Lee (very similar in fact) who did spin-offs of Arthur C. Clarke's Rendezvous With Rama. In both cases we see an ineffectual author stepping into the place of the creator of what's become a franchise and by the very nature of their ineffectuality actually damaging the IP itself by being unable to recreate what made it appealing in the first place.

Namely the original author's quality and the vision which directed their work.

[The Fisher King]

I wouldn't highlight a particular quote as being a Sanderson moment. For me, whole sections, whole character perspectives are palpably more primitively and juvenilely written.

 

Gawyn, Siuan and Bryne are the worst. Gawyn's posturing performance in the rebel camp, picking fights with guards and arguing with the father-figure of Bryne just reminds me of the Eddings style of self-indulgent, thoughtless author insertion. I know you're a nerd, Sanderson. You don't need to vicariously compensate for that through an imaginary fantasy character.

 

Between Siuan and Bryne, as written by Sanderson, there is a sort of smarmy cameraderie which turns 2 long and well established characters into flat cardboard cut-out bit players whose existence in the book is solely for the purpose of tying up loose ends. If that.

 

I could go on, and have done before. There's Cadsuane and Mat in general, Mat's letter to Elayne (which was just offensive), Tam and Cadsuane's confrontation. Talmanes becoming comic relief, Sanderson's sad attempts at humour, Hinderstap. There's the bizarre timeline discontinuities between the various books where some characters are ahead of others, etc.

Now, there's a gratitude for the fact that this series is being finished and leads to an urge to defend this man from being called a bad writer. But.... it doesn't change the fact that he is a bad writer. He's a hack who got lucky in that he's milking publicity for his own work on the back of Jordan.

I'm reminded of Kevin J. Anderson who did a similar effort with Dune and Gentry Lee (very similar in fact) who did spin-offs of Arthur C. Clarke's Rendezvous With Rama. In both cases we see an ineffectual author stepping into the place of the creator of what's become a franchise and by the very nature of their ineffectuality actually damaging the IP itself by being unable to recreate what made it appealing in the first place.

Namely the original author's quality and the vision which directed their work.

 

Hate to say it, because its not personal, as - from all indications - Brandon is a wonderful human being, but, I agree with A LOT of that post above.

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Still, we have to give credit where credit is due. Brandon is very good at designing stories, which is why I liked every book of his that I've read. We see less of that in tWoT, unfortunately.

[mandersen]

I actually thought The Alloy of Law showcased Sanderson's improvement in writing humor very well. It's better executed than in any of his previous writings.

 

Yeah, i agree he's getting better in the humor department. Alloy of Law was much better, and the Way of kings wasn't too bad. Warbreaker i think was the worst. I found myself rolling my eyes (which is hard to do while reading) a lot when the two thieves (it's been a while and i don't remember their names or much more about them) were on scene. I've really enjoyed all of Sanderson's work, but the humor has been my one complaint. AND i think he felt like Mat was the best opportunity to fit in some of his specific brand of whit.

[peregrine]

Let's be honest- the issue isn't the letter, it's that Sanderson understands pre-EotW Mat and doesn't understand PTSD post-memories grizzled soldier-escapism lifetstyle Mat.

 

He gets the humor, but not the layers of discipline and cynicism.

 

This is exactly my problem. Don't get me wrong -- I am extremely impressed with Sanderson's writing after finally breaking down and reading Mistborn (can that guy plot or what?), but he doesn't have RJ's subtlety (or love for Mat, I think). Sometimes that's good ... I don't always want to read a full paragraph describing Nynaeve's dress -- but it's a bit sad that his portrayal of Mat is easy to laugh with but hard to take seriously. Where's the "luck his soul, the lightning his eye" captain we've all come to love? I feel like if Sanderson could write Kelsier he should be able to write Mat ...

 

The letter to Elayne made me laugh out loud but was really out of character. I console myself though that Mat was intentionally being ridiculous.

 

I really didn't get the scene where he talks about boots.

[peregrine]

I can't get bent out of shape about Sanderson using the word "devil" though. My feeling is that, if RJ can talk about "Fires of Heaven" and bars called hells, then BS can talk about devils.