True Masters of the Blade

[Vardar]

It makes Galad seem much weaker that he won by trickery (though a fight to the death, you do what the rules allow) when Rand was berely trained and owned a blademaster hard.

 

Forgot to ask this the other day. Why would you call attaining the void trickery? It is a concentration technique used by all the best swordsmen.

 

Maybe he was referring to Galad feigning fatigue before surprising Valda with the killing blow.

 

Ahh my bad, thanks Theodril.

That is what I meant. I could have been clearer, sorry.

 

Would you guys consider that trickery though? I consider it like feinting. Same basic idea, in a duel you play on your strengths and their weaknesses equally.

[TristanWebb]

You do what it takes to win, sure. What I was saying is that Rand won through straight skill and strength. Galad, even with all his skill and strength, was losing so he brought in psychological measures too. Would Galad book 11 win against Rand book 2? I think he would do it easily. But the blademaster fights we have seen are Rand vs Seanchan guy, Rand vs Toram and Galad vs Valda. Rand won against the seanchant guy easily and lost to Toram because he was distracted. Galad was losing to Valda until Valda became overconfident.

 

Galad didn't win as much as Valda lost. The fight was alot closer and Galad still won, but it makes it seem like he is isn't as good. If someone wins a sport 100-0 they seem alot better than someone who wins 10-9 to someone who doesn't know how the sport is played. But if it is a pro game that is close, they will be much better than the others. No one knows how the sword fighting really looks in WoT, so all we have to go on is the ease at which one guy beats another, and Galad clearly had a harder time than Rand did on his one fight to the death.

 

Which makes it -seem- like Galad isn't as good as Rand.

[Vardar]

You do what it takes to win, sure. What I was saying is that Rand won through straight skill and strength. Galad, even with all his skill and strength, was losing so he brought in psychological measures too. Would Galad book 11 win against Rand book 2? I think he would do it easily. But the blademaster fights we have seen are Rand vs Seanchan guy, Rand vs Toram and Galad vs Valda. Rand won against the seanchant guy easily and lost to Toram because he was distracted. Galad was losing to Valda until Valda became overconfident.

 

Galad didn't win as much as Valda lost. The fight was alot closer and Galad still won, but it makes it seem like he is isn't as good. If someone wins a sport 100-0 they seem alot better than someone who wins 10-9 to someone who doesn't know how the sport is played. But if it is a pro game that is close, they will be much better than the others. No one knows how the sword fighting really looks in WoT, so all we have to go on is the ease at which one guy beats another, and Galad clearly had a harder time than Rand did on his one fight to the death.

 

Which makes it -seem- like Galad isn't as good as Rand.

 

See I'd call what Galad did part of his "skill." Like knowing when to hold them, fold them, etc.

 

But I agree with your final assessment.

[shortkut]

But we know Valda is one of the best in the world. All we know about toram or the warders is that they are blademasters. As someone said, their are probably different levels of blademasters, so why are we holding every battle as being equal

[Mr Ares]

"Hattori got out," Sleete continued softly. "Went on this mission to al'Thor, never knowing the depth of what it was about. She just didn't want to be in the Tower. Wise woman." He sighed, standing upright and laying a hand on Gawyn's shoulder. "Hammar was a good man."

 

"He was," Gawyn said, feeling a twist in his stomach.

 

"But he would have killed you," Sleete said. "Killed you cleanly and quickly. He was the one on the offensive, not you. He understood why you did what you did. Nobody made any good decisions that day. There weren't any good decisions to be made."

 

"I . . ." Gawyn just nodded. "Thank you."

 

Sorry Sutts but this kinda blows away your argument about Galad 3/5 vs Gawyn 2/5 in the Tower. Gawyn beat a Blademaster and another Warder 2 vs 1, 3 times in a row.

And how did Galad perform against the same foe? The point of the comparison in the WT was that that was the last time we could directly compare their accomplishments. Gawyn won a handicap match against a blademaster and another Warder, but if we can't say how that ranks up with Galad's achievements it tells us only that Gawyn is good, not how he compares with Galad.

 

Then next Sleete basically confirms that it was a 1 on 1 fight that Hammar instigated. Coulin's not mentioned so you can say what you will about him but I knew that something wasn't reading right yesterday about Hammar but I was too busy to look it up.

I wouldn't necessarily read it that way. It says nothing either way about other people.

 

You do what it takes to win, sure. What I was saying is that Rand won through straight skill and strength. Galad, even with all his skill and strength, was losing so he brought in psychological measures too. Would Galad book 11 win against Rand book 2? I think he would do it easily. But the blademaster fights we have seen are Rand vs Seanchan guy, Rand vs Toram and Galad vs Valda. Rand won against the seanchant guy easily and lost to Toram because he was distracted. Galad was losing to Valda until Valda became overconfident.

 

Galad didn't win as much as Valda lost. The fight was alot closer and Galad still won, but it makes it seem like he is isn't as good. If someone wins a sport 100-0 they seem alot better than someone who wins 10-9 to someone who doesn't know how the sport is played. But if it is a pro game that is close, they will be much better than the others. No one knows how the sword fighting really looks in WoT, so all we have to go on is the ease at which one guy beats another, and Galad clearly had a harder time than Rand did on his one fight to the death.

 

Which makes it -seem- like Galad isn't as good as Rand.

Or it makes it seem like Galad had harder opponents than Rand. As you point out, 100-0 does look like a better record than 10-9 to someone who just looks at the numbers. But looking at the numbers alone tells you little of use. The only thing we can safely conclude from Galad having a harder time than Rand is that Galad had a harder time than Rand. It doesn't tell us why he had it harder.

[Lisa Campbell]

@Mr Ares

 

Well true we haven't seen Galad in a similar circumstance but if Sleete could be Lan (the best ever) then I would say that Valda (as being cited the best by Morgase etc.) was on par with him. Could Galad have beaten Valda +1? I just don't want to to discount how far Gawyn has come. Am I recalling correctly that that quote about the rankings was between TGS and TOM?

 

They do have obtusely different skills I'm aware, Gawyn seems particularly skilled at fighting multiple opponents, while Galad has more focus and determination 1vs1, you just can't really discount either. Which is why I stated first off (today) that I stand by my previous stance: God said Galad and that's canon, but I think we have to RAFO to get the final ranking at the end of AMoL. Things are likely to change in my opinion.

[Vardar]

@Mr Ares

 

Well true we haven't seen Galad in a similar circumstance but if Sleete could be Lan (the best ever) then I would say that Valda (as being cited the best by Morgase etc.) was on par with him. Could Galad have beaten Valda +1? I just don't want to to discount how far Gawyn has come. Am I recalling correctly that that quote about the rankings was between TGS and TOM?

 

They do have obtusely different skills I'm aware, Gawyn seems particularly skilled at fighting multiple opponents, while Galad has more focus and determination 1vs1, you just can't really discount either. Which is why I stated first off (today) that I stand by my previous stance: God said Galad and that's canon, but I think we have to RAFO to get the final ranking at the end of AMoL. Things are likely to change in my opinion.

 

The assertion earlier that this was "Pre-badass" Lan. And thus not at his full ability and therefore it lent credence to the idea that Sleete isn't that good.

 

I still still by my opinion that Gawyn comes off as much more skilled in the books, regardless of what BS says. Sure BS/RJ says it, then it's true as far as the story goes, but it doesn't mean it has to make sense.

[Lisa Campbell]

In my mind Lan was always badass, there was no beginning to the wheel of Lan

[Vardar]

In my mind Lan was always badass, there was no beginning to the wheel of Lan

 

Lol. Lan's Badassness had no begining, but his Badassness is an end. The end to many fools who believe they can stand up to him.

[Suttree]

@Mr Ares

 

Well true we haven't seen Galad in a similar circumstance but if Sleete could be Lan (the best ever) then I would say that Valda (as being cited the best by Morgase etc.) was on par with him. Could Galad have beaten Valda +1? I just don't want to to discount how far Gawyn has come. Am I recalling correctly that that quote about the rankings was between TGS and TOM?

 

The author quote was post ToM and BS said Gawyn was very lucky against the Bloodknives.

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks Sutts, I wasn't sure I just remembered a post that said so.

[999134]

I always read Galad as an almost super powered swordsman type figure, do not have quotes but remember him carving his way through 10s of armed people and just generally being regarded by everyone as being better than Gawyn (even by Ewgene who does not care because Galad is weird).

 

Also It is unfair to use Mat to compare against anyone, if he went up against an entire army on his own he would probably still win. (Meteor falling on them or something most likely XD)

[Vardar]

I always read Galad as an almost super powered swordsman type figure, do not have quotes but remember him carving his way through 10s of armed people and just generally being regarded by everyone as being better than Gawyn (even by Ewgene who does not care because Galad is weird).

 

Also It is unfair to use Mat to compare against anyone, if he went up against an entire army on his own he would probably still win. (Meteor falling on them or something most likely XD)

 

HA! I was thinking about that this morning. People all think Lan is the most dangerous man in the world (Non powered) yet Mat held off 12 Aiel solo and killed a few right? I mean that man is a MONSTER!

 

However this is blademaster only.

[TommyRocker]

I always read Galad as an almost super powered swordsman type figure, do not have quotes but remember him carving his way through 10s of armed people and just generally being regarded by everyone as being better than Gawyn (even by Ewgene who does not care because Galad is weird).

 

Also It is unfair to use Mat to compare against anyone, if he went up against an entire army on his own he would probably still win. (Meteor falling on them or something most likely XD)

 

HA! I was thinking about that this morning. People all think Lan is the most dangerous man in the world (Non powered) yet Mat held off 12 Aiel solo and killed a few right? I mean that man is a MONSTER!

 

However this is blademaster only.

 

I do believe that Mat might be the most deadly character in WoT without use of the OP. He soundly defeated both Galad and Gawyn when he was barely able to stand. He's only gotten better, faster, stronger, and more skilled, plus he has countless lives worth of experience, AND the Dark One's own luck on top.

[Maleshub]

It makes Galad seem much weaker that he won by trickery (though a fight to the death, you do what the rules allow) when Rand was berely trained and owned a blademaster hard.

 

Forgot to ask this the other day. Why would you call attaining the void trickery? It is a concentration technique used by all the best swordsmen.

 

Maybe he was referring to Galad feigning fatigue before surprising Valda with the killing blow.

 

Ahh my bad, thanks Theodril.

 

Your most welcome, Suttree.

 

Regarding the Galad-Gawyn debate, I'd like to ask a question: Do Warder "gifts" improve a swordsman? (Bryne's experience indicates that they do) If so, I think that Egwene's bonding of Gawyn has to be taken into consideration. But it remains that prior to the bonding, BS stated that Galad remains better than Gawyn. With Trakand getting more screen time than Damodred in "duel-type" combat, BS would know if more screen time doesn't mean better.

[Suttree]

But it remains that prior to the bonding, BS stated that Galad remains better than Gawyn. With Trakand getting more screen time than Damodred in "duel-type" combat, BS would know if more screen time doesn't mean better.

 

One quick point, BS said Galad was better post ToM.

[Maleshub]

But it remains that prior to the bonding, BS stated that Galad remains better than Gawyn. With Trakand getting more screen time than Damodred in "duel-type" combat, BS would know if more screen time doesn't mean better.

 

One quick point, BS said Galad was better post ToM.

 

Wow! That's quite a statement by Brandon. And it means that Galad is so much better than Gawyn that even warder gifts don't bring the Trakand par to Galad; or that warder gifts aren't that great (which I don't believe). Or that we should look forward to a Galad - Gawyn fight in AMoL where Galad wins .... maybe saving or avenging his half-brother (Terez would like that one).

[TristanWebb]

Bonded Gawyn is still worse than un-bonded Galad?

 

Galad is a real badass then.

 

(Unless he isn't bonded yet, I can't really remember. Skipping the Gawyn parts of ToM is one of life's great pleasures.)

[Suttree]

But it remains that prior to the bonding, BS stated that Galad remains better than Gawyn. With Trakand getting more screen time than Damodred in "duel-type" combat, BS would know if more screen time doesn't mean better.

 

One quick point, BS said Galad was better post ToM.

 

Wow! That's quite a statement by Brandon. And it means that Galad is so much better than Gawyn that even warder gifts don't bring the Trakand par to Galad; or that warder gifts aren't that great (which I don't believe). Or that we should look forward to a Galad - Gawyn fight in AMoL where Galad wins .... maybe saving or avenging his half-brother (Terez would like that one).

 

Here is the quote in case you haven't seen it.

 

Interview: 2010

 

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

sleepinghour (8 November 2010)

 

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon Sanderson (8 November 2010)

 

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

[Maleshub]

But it remains that prior to the bonding, BS stated that Galad remains better than Gawyn. With Trakand getting more screen time than Damodred in "duel-type" combat, BS would know if more screen time doesn't mean better.

 

One quick point, BS said Galad was better post ToM.

 

Wow! That's quite a statement by Brandon. And it means that Galad is so much better than Gawyn that even warder gifts don't bring the Trakand par to Galad; or that warder gifts aren't that great (which I don't believe). Or that we should look forward to a Galad - Gawyn fight in AMoL where Galad wins .... maybe saving or avenging his half-brother (Terez would like that one).

Bonded Gawyn is still worse than un-bonded Galad?

 

Galad is a real badass then.

 

(Unless he isn't bonded yet, I can't really remember. Skipping the Gawyn parts of ToM is one of life's great pleasures.)

 

Egwene bonded Gawyn to save his life after the last bloodknife tore a significant part of Gawyn's side. So, he has the warder gifts; and Brandon says that even they don't bring Gawyn to Galad's sword skill level.

 

Thanks for the quote, Suttree. I've seen it "quoted" before. But it is better to see it referenced.

[TristanWebb]

Then yep, I stand by my statement that even though Galad has been fighting people that make him look like he he just holding on by his fingernails, he is a super badass.

 

I would of liked to see more references to Valda's 'best swordsman in the world' status before Morgase's statemenet. That is the only reference I can remember, and it would of made Galad's achievement in beating him better if it wasn't only referenced long after the fight had taken place. As it is, it seems like Galad is surprised by the heron mark which you wouldn't think possible if he was world famous.

[Maleshub]

Then yep, I stand by my statement that even though Galad has been fighting people that make him look like he he just holding on by his fingernails, he is a super badass.

 

True, just like Jearom (sp) is considered the greatest blademaster of all time despite the fact that we haven't seen his awesomeness, and don't know how many of his 10K duels were against Valda-level opponents.

[shortkut]

Does that quote put gawyn ahead of rand in terms of skill?

[TristanWebb]

No, it puts him ahead of rand in terms of number of hands.

[Vardar]

But what makes Galad that badass? And how can Gawyn be that lucky? I mean, if Galad was better in book 2 because he won 3/5 vs 2/5 against Hammar and Co. and Gawyn soon kills those people, obviously Gawyn is improving, and we can assume Galad is too, off screen. But how far was the skill gap between them beforehand? Was Galad only taking 3/5 because he felt like being nice to Hammar and Co? Because that's what I would assume (wasn't it like 3-4 months between dueling and Gawyn killing them?)

 

What has Galad been doing? Gawyn has been fighting Aiel right? Galad has been... On tour with Whitecloaks. They're not at war with anyone right now right, so at best we'd have him doing what he was doing when he defended Ny and Elayne, killing non-skilled opponents. Practicing with fellow soldiers of course, but what else? What makes him that good? I mean Gawyn is still in a position to practice with Warders, Galad isn't. Warders, due to their gifts, are generally accounted some of the best. Yes there are exceptions but if practice is everything (What Galad would have had in terms of actual challenges unless there are random blademasters wandering the world in small villages, well besides Tam), then Gawyn would have had the best practice opportunities as well as the best combat challenges ( Aiel and such).

 

So, if Galad is just that good, then we have to suspend disbelief and accept that fact that nothing Gawyn can ever do will put him on Galad's level. Apparently he was just born that way.

 

(And 2 handed Rand too, apparently he got that good that fast because it was a birthright)