Knowing what we know now about strength in the Power

[dexterryu]

Was just doing some thinking about what we know about strength in the power & men vs women. Then I started to think about the fight when Aginor and Balthamel.

 

Moiriane is decently powerful on her own. Not forsaken level or anything, but still pretty powerful. On their own, they each of them would be able to handle her without a problem, let alone together. However, she has an Angreal, and a pretty powerful one. I'd think that she'd at least be equal to them.

 

Any thoughts?

[GYLD]

Well, I'm sure the real reason is that Moiraine had to be swept away to give Rand the opportunity to save the day.

 

However, this was after all the first battle with Forsaken in the Third Age. They were legends with supposedly unimaginable power and you can see that Moiraine acted with that in mind. As I recall Moiraine mostly used defensive weaves, like a wall of fire. She was trying to buy time rather than go for the kill because likely, even with an angreal, she did not believe herself capable of killing a Forsaken. If this had been later in the series where Moiraine has personal experience against Forsaken she might have gone for a more aggressive approach and likely would have made a greater difference.

[Nightstrike]

It's an average angreal, and she didn't know how to weave Balefire then. Aginor & Balthamel would have known how to, but they chose not to. They probably would have used it on her if they would have seen her as a great enough threat - even though even the Forsaken don't like to use it (because of the bad side-effects).

 

For instance, if she was 70-90 percent of LTT's strength with the angreal (hard to know the exact figure), she would probably not be enough of a threat against the two of them.

 

I copied this from 13:th depository:

a woman clothed in her hair figurine angreal:

 

 

a seated woman in age-darkened ivory, her legs folded in front of her, her exposed knees bare, but with her hair so long and luxuriant she could not have been more muffled in the heaviest cloak. It was not even as strong as the turtle…One hand rested on a knee, palm up and fingers arranged so the thumb touched the tips of the middle two fingers, while the other hand was lifted, the first two fingers raised and the others folded. The whole figure carried an air of supreme dignity, yet the delicately worked face showed amusement and delight.

 

- The Path of Daggers, A Quiet Place

 

 

The woman appears to be in a yoga posture and is making the sign of peace. With this fairly weak angreal, Aviendha can hold almost twice as much of the Power (The Path of Daggers, The Breaking Storm).

A fairly weak one would let Aviendha hold twice as much of the OP. I wonder how a medium one would benefit Moiraine?

 

(Of course, there's a theoretical possibility that Moiraine+angreal was "above LTT", and that their skills/Talents lay in duelling but hers didn't. It could be so, but I don't think there's any really good reason to take it for granted. Women are supposed to be more skilled than men, but maybe the "just about" doesn't cover duelling?)

[MasterAblar]

(Of course, there's a theoretical possibility that Moiraine+angreal was "above LTT", and that their skills/Talents lay in duelling but hers didn't. It could be so, but I don't think there's any really good reason to take it for granted. Women are supposed to be more skilled than men, but maybe the "just about" doesn't cover duelling?)

 

Women have greater dexterity in their weaving which makes up for their lesser strength, but that doesn't mean they are more skilled. Skills and talent vary between individuals. Semirhage was an amazing healer but she might be terrible in another area of channeling. There probably isn't anyone as skilled at dueling then Rand/LTT, but we know that he has very little skill in healing. Aginor was not supposed to be a particular good fighter, which is understandable since he was a scientist. That said beyond strength, dexterity, skill, and talent, there's simply knowledge and experience. Aginor knew far more about channeling than Moiraine and probably also had greater experience fighting someone wielding the opposite power than Moiraine did. Even if the angreal allowed her to be stronger than Aginor, she was still at a disadvantage.

[YoungKing]

This always seems so confusing to me.

 

I mean, Moiraine is pretty strong for an Aes Sedai in the first book. Compared to Egwene/Elayne in book three/four she's not nearly as strong. E and E are in turn not nearly as strong as Nyneave, who is Mog's strength, who in turn is a step or two below the stronger Forsaken. It just seems to me that Moiraine, even with a double strength angreal would not be a match for a forsaken, but I'm sure others will argue otherwise.

 

It's just always been somewhat subjective as to OP strengths in the books.

 

For instance, look at the healing of Mat. they have what, 8 Aes Sedai and one of the strongest sa'angreal linked. Yet is it Nyneave who says she could hold half that much of the OP? But then Aviendha gets an angreal that doubles her strength? If a weak angreal doubles Avi's strength, then a very powerful sa'angreal is probably going to allow Suian to hold many, many times more of the OP along with 8 linked women. There is no way that Nynaeve could hold half that much power.

 

I take it all with a grain of salt myself.

[Cybertrolloc]

It's not that confusing:

 

1) Eg, El, Ny, Rand, and similar don't have a fixed strength for comparison: they grow/are still growing into their potential throughout the series.

 

2) Females can sense both current strength and potential easily if it's not masked in some way. The characters know more than they convey to us, which can be minorly annoying.

 

3) Pure strength isn't everything.

 

4) RJ did chart out female strength pretty thoroughly because of Aes Sedai deference to strength in the OP. I don't think that's changed too much, while other things regarding the OP did.

 

Granted, the Ny line in tDR is still a little iffy :)

[rand4747]

ive always though the difference between weak and "average" channelers and average and strong are massive, so an average might be 100 times as powerfull as the weakest and the stronger might be 10x the average or whatever perhaps the average aes sedai been 10x the weakest aes sedai since the weakest channelers are not capable of becomming aes sedai.

 

Stuff like Angreal might amplify like 2 to 10x and sa angreal up to hundreds of times in the case of the choedan kal

 

What Im getting at is i think channeling ability is hugely varied not like a narrow range with heaps of steps but several orders of magnitude different

[Entreri]

Men are stronger in the Power, akin to arm strength as told by Asmodean. Lanfear or Alivia would be a very roided up "female" weight lifter or body builder, the top end of the female scale.

 

Cyndane strength level in AoL: Grandael said it is "very rare indeed" among women (1/1000 or possibly 1/10000 women) and "uncommon" among men(1/10 men).

 

With a weak angreal, Cadsuane was able to hold up the shield, which was bombarded by Cyndane during the Cleansing (in her PoV, she stated only because of the angreal was she able to accomplish this).

 

 

 

 

Moraine could be around 20% of LTT's strength. Since she was able to hold off Agnior for a little while, that angreal would have increased her strength 3-4 fold or so (Lanfear level).

 

I would say, Rand, Nynaeve and Egwene by now have gained all their strength in the Power.

 

 

The Choden Kal probably amplified Rand's strength around 100,000X, since he could have destroyed the world in 1 blow. Callandor, 100X+ (we have Rand's PoV on this).

[Sharaman]

Yeah! Yippee! Let's start another "who's stronger in OP" Thread. eventually somebody will get into an argument and Luckers will BF everyone.

How does it matter who's stronger in OP if the weakest person in a fight is strong enough to instantly kill the others?

What matters is speed and sneakiness.

[Nightstrike]

How does it matter who's stronger in OP if the weakest person in a fight is strong enough to instantly kill the others?

Lanfear on the docks, Rand vs 2 wonder girls, Forsaken being wary of the asha'man ... I think it does matter in most cases. It's not the only thing, but still.

 

Women have greater dexterity in their weaving which makes up for their lesser strength, but that doesn't mean they are more skilled.

Yeah, I probably should have said "dexterity" instead. "Strongest" can do "just about" anything that the other "strongest" can (and to the same degree).

[Rose]

And then there are also the Talents. Like that Kinswoman whose name I can't remember, who was weak in the power but whose shields were so powerful even Nynaeve and Elayne couldn't break free from them. Or, more recently, Androl, who isn't strong enough to make it to Asha'man, but who is extremely skilled at gateways.

[Sharaman]

How does it matter who's stronger in OP if the weakest person in a fight is strong enough to instantly kill the others?

Lanfear on the docks, Rand vs 2 wonder girls, Forsaken being wary of the asha'man ... I think it does matter in most cases. It's not the only thing, but still.

 

Women have greater dexterity in their weaving which makes up for their lesser strength, but that doesn't mean they are more skilled.

Yeah, I probably should have said "dexterity" instead. "Strongest" can do "just about" anything that the other "strongest" can (and to the same degree).

Lanfear was by several orders, the most dexterous channeler on the docks, not just the strongest, bar Rand.

Rand and the wondergirls were at pretty much the same level of skill so his strength counted.

[Nightstrike]

Lanfear was by several orders, the most dexterous channeler on the docks, not just the strongest, bar Rand.

Nynaeve, wonder girls, Forsaken, and some other people (Liandrin compared to the wonder girls or Egwene compared with 2 Aiel channelers, for instance) talk about strength as if it is important. I assume those characters should know about it.

 

Rand and the wondergirls were at pretty much the same level of skill so his strength counted.

I haven't said that other things do not matter. I said that strength probably matters.

 

I don't find it impossible that Moiraine was 70-90 percent of LTT's strength with her angreal. She could have been stronger than LTT, but obviously she somehow wasn't perceived as a great threat to Aginor and Balthamel. It could be simply because she wasn't Talented or skilled enough, but we don't know that for sure. Forsaken are wary of Asha'man, maybe because they are stronger in Fire and Earth. Although I suppose there are weaves that can kill when they're using other combinations. Moiraine can use Fire - we've seen it against trollocs (wall of Fire). Cutting/shielding is more Spirit than anything else. I don't know where her greatest Talents lie, but then neither did the two Forsaken (I assume).

[MasterAblar]

I don't find it impossible that Moiraine was 70-90 percent of LTT's strength with her angreal. She could have been stronger than LTT, but obviously she somehow wasn't perceived as a great threat to Aginor and Balthamel. It could be simply because she wasn't Talented or skilled enough, but we don't know that for sure. Forsaken are wary of Asha'man, maybe because they are stronger in Fire and Earth. Although I suppose there are weaves that can kill when they're using other combinations. Moiraine can use Fire - we've seen it against trollocs (wall of Fire). Cutting/shielding is more Spirit than anything else. I don't know where her greatest Talents lie, but then neither did the two Forsaken (I assume).

 

Moiraine can use fire, but according to her it's one of her weaker powers. If the Forsaken are wary of the Ashaman I imagine it's because they're trained purely for fighting. I think Aginor and Balthamel were fairly confident in themselves simply because they are very powerful. Both are extremely strong in the power, with Aginor nearly as strong as LTT. They were among the top 13 Forsaken at the time of the sealing in the AoL, so they are probably going to be rather confident against nearly any opponent. Perhaps they even already knew at this point that the 3rd Age Aes Sedai were overall inferior in knowledge, strength, and talents, to those of the AoL. There's also no reason for either of them to have known that Moiraine an angreal to begin with.

 

Yeah! Yippee! Let's start another "who's stronger in OP" Thread. eventually somebody will get into an argument and Luckers will BF everyone.

How does it matter who's stronger in OP if the weakest person in a fight is strong enough to instantly kill the others?

What matters is speed and sneakiness.

 

Rand beat Asmodean thanks to the bost in strength he got from his angreal.

 

Strength is not the be all and end all of fights with the power, but it's still fairly important. Obviously if you strike someone by suprise then strength is not even relevant, but even Olver can take someone by suprise and stick his knife in their back. In a fight were both opponents are aware of each other however, things like strength, dexterity, skill, talents, knowledge, and experience all come into play.

[Sharaman]

Sure strength counts. But when both parties are above a base level of strength, other things count for much more.

Take an analogy:

(For some unfathomable reason), suppose an Olympic Judo champion gets into a fight with an Olympic weightlifting champion in the same weight category.

The weightlifter is almost certainly stronger but the Judoka will almost certainly win. Because he knows how to fight and he's strong enough.

Similarly when both parties in an OP duel are strong enough to kill the other, how much they know about fighting, element of surprise, etc, will count for much much more than strength.

[Nightstrike]

Cyndane "beat" Alivia, even though Alivia was much stronger (with the angreal). That's the only OP duel that I can think of when that's happened. There might be other similar examples, but none that I know of/can remember. Cyndane was very skilled and Alivia is practically a wilder when it comes to OP duelling, so I am not sure what that really means(?).

 

Still, I don't think we know for sure that Moiraine was at (or above) LTT's strength when she met Aginor and Balthamel. They might not have known she had an angreal, but then they probably wouldn't have been certain she didn't.

[Orderofolde]

It's not that confusing:

 

1) Eg, El, Ny, Rand, and similar don't have a fixed strength for comparison: they grow/are still growing into their potential throughout the series.

 

2) Females can sense both current strength and potential easily if it's not masked in some way. The characters know more than they convey to us, which can be minorly annoying.

 

3) Pure strength isn't everything.

 

4) RJ did chart out female strength pretty thoroughly because of Aes Sedai deference to strength in the OP. I don't think that's changed too much, while other things regarding the OP did.

 

Granted, the Ny line in tDR is still a little iffy :)

Another thing to consider is talents with certain weaves. We've seen people able to create gateways that don't have the strength, except that they have a natural knack for it. Angreal are like modifiers that add a bonus to one's natural strength. .5x, 2x, 3x, and Sa'angreal are something like 5x-10x or in the case of the CK 100X just to rough it out.

[sleepinghour]

Was just doing some thinking about what we know about strength in the power & men vs women. Then I started to think about the fight when Aginor and Balthamel.

 

Moiriane is decently powerful on her own. Not forsaken level or anything, but still pretty powerful. On their own, they each of them would be able to handle her without a problem, let alone together. However, she has an Angreal, and a pretty powerful one. I'd think that she'd at least be equal to them.

I think the simple explanation is that Moiraine had very little experience fighting other channelers at that point (the only other time we know of is Merean in NS), and that held her back more than any lack of strength. In TGH she researched how to make balefire, but she's otherwise only been trained in traditional Tower weaves. This is also why the Greens were so easily defeated by the Seanchan—Aes Sedai always denied the existence of the Black Ajah and never expected to fight other channelers, so they never trained for it. The only exception is the Red Ajah, but they've only fought male wilders who probably weren't very strong or knew that many weaves.

[Nightstrike]

I think both Siuan and Moiraine were interested in weaves that could kill, especially since they searched for the Dragon reborn for many years. Cutting/shielding would probably have been a priority as well, and I find it more than likely that Merean would have made that even clearer for the two of them.

[sleepinghour]

I think both Siuan and Moiraine were interested in weaves that could kill, especially since they searched for the Dragon reborn for many years. Cutting/shielding would probably have been a priority as well, and I find it more than likely that Merean would have made that even clearer for the two of them.

But where would they learn such weaves? Or practice them.

 

"Everything goes into it," Siuan explained. "Who learned fastest, who spent the least time as novice and Accepted. There are all sorts of shadings. You can’t say precisely how strong anyone is. Two women might seem to be the same strength; maybe they are and maybe not, but the only way to say for certain would be a duel, and the Light be blessed, we’re above that."

If Aes Sedai actually want to win against other channelers, they should duel the same way Nynaeve and Talaan did. Otherwise the Seanchan will just wipe the floor with them again.

[Nightstrike]

But where would they learn such weaves? Or practice them.

I assume they must be taught about it in training as Accepted (and they could choose what to study, to some extent). Even if you prefer to assume that they don't, they could still train with other Aes Sedai. Each other, if they don't like doing it with others (though I see no reason why they wouldn't be prepared to do that).

 

"Everything goes into it," Siuan explained. "Who learned fastest, who spent the least time as novice and Accepted. There are all sorts of shadings. You can’t say precisely how strong anyone is. Two women might seem to be the same strength; maybe they are and maybe not, but the only way to say for certain would be a duel, and the Light be blessed, we’re above that."

If Aes Sedai actually want to win against other channelers, they should duel the same way Nynaeve and Talaan did. Otherwise the Seanchan will just wipe the floor with them again.

I think that means "duel to the death".

 

There's nothing that says Aes Sedai are as bad at duelling as Alivia. Imagine Rand al'Thor with a woman's dexterity and training - any kind of training! Moiraine had years and years of channeling behind her, and she was competent enough to study and learn weaves (even from books).

 

There's nothing that says Moiraine must have been at LTT's full strength with her angreal. There's nothing that says Aginor was as skilled as Lanfear for that matter.

[kinggeorge]

when it come to strength in the power and how angreal augment it, there seems to be two terms often used interchangeably that perhaps might not be exactly the same thing. "strength in the power" & "the amount of power held" (with out burning out) this seems important when it pertains to angreal, particularly calendor, Do angreal amplify there power channeled or all one to hold more of the power, or is it both. also do angreal multiply the amount or add a fix amount. another thing i am not clear on is, in a circle do angreal augment the individual with it or the entire circle. i think its the individual, but i need to look at chapters with the bowl of the wind being used and the cleansing of the male half of the source. to be sure.

also on a slight tangent could someone weak in the power burn themselves out such as Diegion or Queen Morgeise

[Nightstrike]

I would have thought that they multiplied the amount a channeler could channel/hold (I think it's the same amount for channel/hold), but I read that Sanderson thought (but wasn't 100% sure, if I understood it correctly) that it's a fixed amount.

 

"Fairly weak" angreal could be either 2X or "Aviendha", depending on which way the angreal works.

 

--->Looked it up in TPoD, and it says "almost twice as much". It must be a little less than what I said first.

 

I don't know at which strength they start to be "medium strength".

[MasterAblar]

But where would they learn such weaves? Or practice them.

I assume they must be taught about it in training as Accepted (and they could choose what to study, to some extent). Even if you prefer to assume that they don't, they could still train with other Aes Sedai. Each other, if they don't like doing it with others (though I see no reason why they wouldn't be prepared to do that).

 

"Everything goes into it," Siuan explained. "Who learned fastest, who spent the least time as novice and Accepted. There are all sorts of shadings. You can’t say precisely how strong anyone is. Two women might seem to be the same strength; maybe they are and maybe not, but the only way to say for certain would be a duel, and the Light be blessed, we’re above that."

If Aes Sedai actually want to win against other channelers, they should duel the same way Nynaeve and Talaan did. Otherwise the Seanchan will just wipe the floor with them again.

I think that means "duel to the death".

 

There's nothing that says Aes Sedai are as bad at duelling as Alivia. Imagine Rand al'Thor with a woman's dexterity and training - any kind of training! Moiraine had years and years of channeling behind her, and she was competent enough to study and learn weaves (even from books).

 

There's nothing that says Moiraine must have been at LTT's full strength with her angreal. There's nothing that says Aginor was as skilled as Lanfear for that matter.

 

Aginor claims to have matched LTT stroke for stroke in a duel in the Hall of Servants. Even if he's exagerating his performance, I doubt he's outright lying. Just surviving against LTT is rather impressive. Combined with his far superior knowledge and experience, as well as the fact that Moiraine probably doesn't have all that much experience fighting a male channeler, let alone one from the AoL, the result seems quite logical. Moiraine has a few decades of channeling experience, Aginor has several centuries of experience and that experience is from the AoL.

[Nightstrike]

Aginor claims to have matched LTT stroke for stroke in a duel in the Hall of Servants. Even if he's exagerating his performance, I doubt he's outright lying. Just surviving against LTT is rather impressive. Combined with his far superior knowledge and experience, as well as the fact that Moiraine probably doesn't have all that much experience fighting a male channeler, let alone one from the AoL, the result seems quite logical. Moiraine has a few decades of channeling experience, Aginor has several centuries of experience and that experience is from the AoL.

Both survived, so I wonder how that comes? Someone must have escaped the other one somehow. If he isn't lying, then I'd like to know how RJ thought about that situation. (That probably won't happen.)

 

ComicCon 15 July 2005 - Diomedes reporting

 

He went on to say that the Forsaken do not like to think of themselves as weaker than anyone else, and, due to their arrogance and ambition, will tend to understate other's abilities and overstate their own. He concluded by saying that, given these weaknesses in character that the Forsaken possess, any information that the Forsaken provide should be considered highly suspect.

"overstate their own"

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

RJ: RAFO. I don't go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don't take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

 

 

Aginor is said to never have held a field command, but he was given free rein with his experiments. I don't know how much he fought the opposite sex, since the DO probably would have valued his skills in the lab. If he killed channelers, then how strong were they and how did it happen?

 

Regardless of that, LTT is still a man - presumably with a man's dexterity. Both surviving a meeting doesn't tell us much when we don't know how that comes.

 

Aginor swatted aside Moiraine since he was only interested in Rand & the Eye, so that's another survival that doesn't actually tell us that one survivor was as good a dueller as the the other survivor. One survivor << the other survivor