Cadsuane

[Entreri]

I like Cadusane, she got spunk. Rand deserves some slapping. You know who deserves it more? Fail and Egwene.

[thisguy]

Rereading the books, I don't see why Cadsuane using the power on Tam is out of character. She gloats about spanking Kings and Queens. She's actually pretty violent, if you ask me. And, she wants everyone to be civil with her but she only follows her own rules. Dobraine mentions her going around the Sun Palace as if she owns the place.

[Suttree]

Rereading the books, I don't see why Cadsuane using the power on Tam is out of character. She gloats about spanking Kings and Queens. She's actually pretty violent, if you ask me. And, she wants everyone to be civil with her but she only follows her own rules. Dobraine mentions her going around the Sun Palace as if she owns the place.

 

The difference being we know those instances with Kings, Queens and an Amyrlin were for the purpose of steadying thrones and making them stronger rulers. They came out very much for the better on the far side of things. The situation with Tam isn't even remotely close to that and we know she would be disgusted at any AS who had to resort to lashing out with the power against a non-channeler in order to solve a debate.

 

As for the civil part she almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate. She gives respect when it is do, she doesn't suffer fools and of course we know that...

 

WH

In any event, Cadsuane is Cadsuane. She seldom sees a swelled head without deciding to deflate it, even when it happens to be wearing a crown. Or a Counsel's diadem. Her last visit was over twenty years ago, during the Aiel War, but I suspect some who remember it will want to hide under their beds when they learn she is back." Kumira gave a small, amused laugh. Shalon saw nothing to laugh at. Harine twisted her lips, but it made her look as though she suffered from a bad belly.

 

Love that description of Harine once she realizes the swollen head applies to her and how bad she has been acting. Just classic.

[thisguy]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

[Suttree]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

 

Shrug. Ok, but the only problem with your statement is we do see her offer civility and manners when the person she is facing has been acting in a way that is deserving of respect. To say she has "no manners of her own" is factually incorrect.

[thisguy]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

 

Shrug. Ok, but the only problem with your statement is we do see her offer civility and manners when the person she is facing has been acting in a way that is deserving of respect. To say she has "no manners of her own" is factually incorrect.

She barges into Rand's rooms without being told to enter. That isn't respectful or civil, and the excuse that she wanted to test him doesn't hold water with me. There's a million ways to do that, and since she didn't even know that he was kidnapped by the AS at this point only proves to me that she didn't do enough research before deciding what move to make. Also, as Dobraine stated, she moves around the Sun Palace like she owns it. She acts like a Queen with everyone but one without a country. I think she should be given into Perrin's custody as he's one of the most respectful people in the books and if she's really so big on civility and manners, she could learn something from him.

[Vardar]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

 

Shrug. Ok, but the only problem with your statement is we do see her offer civility and manners when the person she is facing has been acting in a way that is deserving of respect. To say she has "no manners of her own" is factually incorrect.

 

The only issue with your statement is that you leave off the fact that she is the deciding factor if they deserve respect. When discussing the behavior of someone, how can you rationalize that person's behavior using flawed beliefs. That's my biggest beef with your stance, you fall back on that statement, to which the proper response is "Of course someone like Cad's would say that, it's a handy excuse to do whatever you want.

[condonmc]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

 

Shrug. Ok, but the only problem with your statement is we do see her offer civility and manners when the person she is facing has been acting in a way that is deserving of respect. To say she has "no manners of her own" is factually incorrect.

 

The only issue with your statement is that you leave off the fact that she is the deciding factor if they deserve respect. When discussing the behavior of someone, how can you rationalize that person's behavior using flawed beliefs. That's my biggest beef with your stance, you fall back on that statement, to which the proper response is "Of course someone like Cad's would say that, it's a handy excuse to do whatever you want.

Vardarmus, I think you just summed up the whole problem I have with Cads and her supporters on dragonmount, while they are incredibly knowledgeable of her methods and intent I do feel that their love for her does blind them to some of her true actions...

[thisguy]

Everything we know about Cadsuane's backround from the books is from her or other AS. It's like if you listened to Whitecloaks talking about who was the greatest Whitecloak ever.

[dhammett11]

I mostly decline to take Cadsuane seriously; I see her more as an expression of author bias than as a character in the story. Robert Jordan apparently liked hazing, bullying and other disrespect of young people. He associates maturity with cruelty.

 

Just wanted to say... just because he wrote some characters like that doesn't mean it truly reflects his philosophy... Matter of fact, I think he wrote people that way to further one of his favorite points- you can't be right all the time, and thinking you are just makes you look like an ass. As a writer myself, I can honestly say that sometimes you will HAVE TO write characters that disagree with you and your philosophies. If you don't write characters you hate, you're going to write some pretty boring material.

 

I think you're right on all points. At a signing a while back Harriet told a funny story about how pissy RJ would be on days he was writing from Padan Fain's POV. On those days, she said, he would be a Planters' factory full of nuts! =D

[Suttree]

Everything we know about Cadsuane's backround from the books is from her or other AS. It's like if you listened to Whitecloaks talking about who was the greatest Whitecloak ever.

 

Except we know from RJ's notes that all the stories they tell and what we hear is true...

 

RJ

When Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred had reason to research Cadsuane because of their encounter with her shortly after reaching the shawl, they found many stories regarding Cadsuane. All of the ones that they were able to trace down turned out to be true, and in some cases the truth was more than the story...There are the usual tales expected of a Green, only more of them. Riots suppressed and wars stopped single-handedly; rulers steadied on their thrones, or pulled from them, sometimes toppled openly and sometimes more subtly (toppling rulers was something Aes Sedai had not really done much of in the last thousand years, but Cadsuane seemed in many ways a throwback). Rescuing people carried into the Blight or kidnaped by dangerous bands of Darkfriends, breaking up murderous rings of Darkfriends plaguing villages and towns, and exposing powerful Darkfriends who tried to kill her to protect themselves. There are dozens, even hundreds, of improbable and sometimes seemingly impossible tales.

 

That is just a fraction of what the notes say about her exploits. Her track record is further fleshed out in the books and we know every bit of it is true. Sorry mate, we know you don't want it to be so but she is the most accomplished channeler of this age. Nnot sure why you would attempt to infer that her reputation is inflated or skewed.

[thisguy]

I'm sure they're true. I'm not saying they're not. But, the awe and can do no wrong feelings all come from AS. AS mostly seem a bit full of themselves.

 

Pedron Niall was a Great Captain, if I'm remembering right. I'm sure plenty of WCs would have nothing but good to say about him, but he's still a WC. From the books, he even seems a decent enough guy, for a WC. The AS, many of them, use the authority granted to them to boss people around. We see throughout the book, that many of them aren't all that great as people. With Cadsuane, it seems quite often that the ends justify the means.

[Suttree]

I'm sure they're true. I'm not saying they're not. But, the awe and can do no wrong feelings all come from AS. AS mostly seem a bit full of themselves.

 

Pedron Niall was a Great Captain, if I'm remembering right. I'm sure plenty of WCs would have nothing but good to say about him, but he's still a WC. From the books, he even seems a decent enough guy, for a WC.

 

Decent guy? He had WCs go on a killing/pillage spree masquerading as Dragonsworn so he could then send in his troops to "save the day". On the flip side we know Cads has rescued people from the blight, steadied thrones/countries, averted wars, broken up rampaging bands of DF's, and taken down many male channelers. Finally she swore to do what was best for Rand, not herself or the WT. There is no comparison between the two.

[thisguy]

I'm sure they're true. I'm not saying they're not. But, the awe and can do no wrong feelings all come from AS. AS mostly seem a bit full of themselves.

 

Pedron Niall was a Great Captain, if I'm remembering right. I'm sure plenty of WCs would have nothing but good to say about him, but he's still a WC. From the books, he even seems a decent enough guy, for a WC.

 

Decent guy? He had WCs go on a killing/pillage spree masquerading as Dragonsworn so he could then send in his troops to "save the day". On the flip side we know Cads has rescued people from the blight, steadied thrones/countries, averted wars, broken up rampaging bands of DF's, and taken down many male channelers. Finally she swore to do what was best for Rand, not herself or the WT. There is no comparison between the two.

The comparison is that from a WC's perspective he's great. From an AS perspective she's great. We see wetlanders who cannot stand Aiel. They'd think Sorilea is a savage. From an Aiel perspective she's super tough awesome WO. The entire perspective of Cadsuane being the greatest comes from AS.

[Durinax]

That is just a fraction of what the notes say about her exploits. Her track record is further fleshed out in the books and we know every bit of it is true. Sorry mate, we know you don't want it to be so but she is the most accomplished channeler of this age. Nnot sure why you would attempt to infer that her reputation is inflated or skewed.

actually we do have a mention of her inflating her reputation, which was soon after she was introduced, with the tin box

[Suttree]

actually we do have a mention of her inflating her reputation, which was soon after she was introduced, with the tin box

 

Not sure what you are referring to? Regardless we know per RJ that her reputation is solid and has been earned. Not only where the stories true but in most cases were more than the story told. I understand some people don't like her but the facts are she is a throw back to what Greens are supposed to be and doesn't let WT politics get in the way of her doing good for the light. Again this comes straight from the author.

 

That is why I don' understand thisguy's point above. We know Cads's track record for the light means she has earned her reputation. On the flip Nial has actually commited atrocities to further his cause. It doesn't matter how the WCs view him, we as readers know the truth of it.

[BFG]

actually we do have a mention of her inflating her reputation, which was soon after she was introduced, with the tin box

 

Not sure what you are referring to? Regardless we know per RJ that her reputation is solid and has been earned. Not only where the stories true but in most cases were more than the story told. I understand some people don't like her but the facts are she is a throw back to what Greens are supposed to be and doesn't let WT politics get in the way of her doing good for the light. Again this comes straight from the author.

 

That is why I don' understand thisguy's point above. We know Cads's track record for the light means she has earned her reputation. On the flip Nial has actually commited atrocities to further his cause. It doesn't matter how the WCs view him, we as readers know the truth of it.

 

In no means arguing for Nial, but in his defence he'd been corrupted by Fain by then.

[Mr Ares]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

 

Shrug. Ok, but the only problem with your statement is we do see her offer civility and manners when the person she is facing has been acting in a way that is deserving of respect. To say she has "no manners of her own" is factually incorrect.

The only issue with your statement is that you leave off the fact that she is the deciding factor if they deserve respect. When discussing the behavior of someone, how can you rationalize that person's behavior using flawed beliefs. That's my biggest beef with your stance, you fall back on that statement, to which the proper response is "Of course someone like Cad's would say that, it's a handy excuse to do whatever you want.

But it's not something Cadsuane says. It is something readers say about her. So it's not really the proper response.

[Vardar]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

 

Shrug. Ok, but the only problem with your statement is we do see her offer civility and manners when the person she is facing has been acting in a way that is deserving of respect. To say she has "no manners of her own" is factually incorrect.

The only issue with your statement is that you leave off the fact that she is the deciding factor if they deserve respect. When discussing the behavior of someone, how can you rationalize that person's behavior using flawed beliefs. That's my biggest beef with your stance, you fall back on that statement, to which the proper response is "Of course someone like Cad's would say that, it's a handy excuse to do whatever you want.

But it's not something Cadsuane says. It is something readers say about her. So it's not really the proper response.

 

Her behavior shows she believes that crock. She doesn't have to say it.

 

I mean, we could get down the nitty gritty and argue what gives AS the "authority" to do any of those things? What gives her the right to "steady" kingdoms, disrespect Kings and Queens, walk over wheoever she wants? Oddly enough, the only thing that she does that I won't knock her for is Murdering men (Genteling them). That's something the WT has direct authority over. I'll give them that. But the rest? It's her own sense of power and ego.

actually we do have a mention of her inflating her reputation, which was soon after she was introduced, with the tin box

 

Not sure what you are referring to? Regardless we know per RJ that her reputation is solid and has been earned. Not only where the stories true but in most cases were more than the story told. I understand some people don't like her but the facts are she is a throw back to what Greens are supposed to be and doesn't let WT politics get in the way of her doing good for the light. Again this comes straight from the author.

 

That is why I don' understand thisguy's point above. We know Cads's track record for the light means she has earned her reputation. On the flip Nial has actually commited atrocities to further his cause. It doesn't matter how the WCs view him, we as readers know the truth of it.

 

The point is, in his mind, those atrocities were commited for the better of man. In Cad's mind, genteling men was for the better of man right? Those men will die, essentially you're murdering them (I call it like I see it, they don't live a natural life, and die before their time, it's murder), however it's justified. We as the readers know genteling men is a good thing, however you have to think that Nial thinks the world would be a better place if WC's ruled and all AS were dead. His actions, while horrible ot you, are great to some. The main point being, if you use someone's viewpoint to rationalize their decisions, anything is rationalized.

[thisguy]

When they're in Far Madding and she meets with the Counsel, Cadsuane acts like an Empress from the first moment, before anybody is rude to her. It's her way or the highway with everyone. She acts like she's the Creator made flesh. I do not believe that she knows better than every single person she comes into contact with.

 

Edit to add: in almost every interaction we see her have with someone new, she acts as if she is the authority. She's a primadonna.

[Suttree]

When they're in Far Madding and she meets with the Counsel, Cadsuane acts like an Empress from the first moment, before anybody is rude to her. It's her way or the highway with everyone. She acts like she's the Creator made flesh. I do not believe that she knows better than every single person she comes into contact with.

 

As has been discussed many times on these boards she was doing so for a specific purpose. It was all part of her plan to be in a positions to help should anything happen to Rand. She needed access to the palace and guardians for the plan to work. That whole section of WH was written by RJ to show her meticulous planning. Everytime she acts in that manner thisguy you have to dig a bit deeper and ask yourself why and then see what the end result is. In this case rescuing Rand from madness and being shipped back to Elaida.

 

The point is, in his mind, those atrocities were commited for the better of man. In Cad's mind, genteling men was for the better of man right? Those men will die, essentially you're murdering them (I call it like I see it, they don't live a natural life, and die before their time, it's murder), however it's justified. We as the readers know genteling men is a good thing, however you have to think that Nial thinks the world would be a better place if WC's ruled and all AS were dead. His actions, while horrible ot you, are great to some. The main point being, if you use someone's viewpoint to rationalize their decisions, anything is rationalized.

 

Few things wrong here. First off Nial was purposely commuting murder to further WC power(not work toward the light) with a power grab for those uncontested lands. Second at the point a man stars to channel he has an incurable disease. He is going to die, so no what Cads does is not murder. You are calling it wrong. She is saving the world from destruction and the men from madness and a painful death from the rot. Further she does so in a way that integrates them back into society and gives them much longer normal life than any other AS. Lastly your are attempting to present this situation as if we as readers don't know the context. Per the author she is a throw back to what AS should be and has earned her reputation working for the light. We know that is not the case with Nial.

[thisguy]

I'm sorry, Sutt. She's rude to everyone. The first counselor she meets she's rude to. Her plan with everyone is to be rude, whether there's a deeper reason or not. Other people have plans too, but if it involved them being rude to her she'd flip. That's what it seems like.

[Suttree]

I'm sorry, Sutt. She's rude to everyone. The first counselor she meets she's rude to. Her plan with everyone is to be rude, whether there's a deeper reason or not. Other people have plans too, but if it involved them being rude to her she'd flip. That's what it seems like.

 

Not sure what you are sorry about. We know for fact in this instance her and Aleis(the first councelor and the one in which she needs leverage on to elp Rand)had a history. That is why she secured the pledge from the WF that she goes wherever they do. This gained her access and allowed her to play to a position of strength which was needed for when they play their gambit with the guardian. Have you finished that section of the book? If so you know what the plan was and why she was acting that way. This actually shows how much she really cares. You have a ruler in Aleis that she made strong in the first place many years back. Which she then has to tear down because of her pledge to do what is best for Rand and she highly regrets the need for it. This is one of those seems that really show the depth of her character. To me it's almost inconceivable that people ignore her hatching a brilliant plan which saves Rand and focus on the fact that her plan included needing to force her way into a palace. It's like yeah she saved Rand so he will have a chance to fight at TG but she was rude!!! I mean really?

[thisguy]

I'm sorry, Sutt. She's rude to everyone. The first counselor she meets she's rude to. Her plan with everyone is to be rude, whether there's a deeper reason or not. Other people have plans too, but if it involved them being rude to her she'd flip. That's what it seems like.

 

Not sure what you are sorry about. We know for fact in this instance her and Aleis had a history. That is why se secured the pledge from the WF that she goes wherever they do. This gained her access and allowed her to play to a position of strength which was needed for when they play their gambit with the guardian. Have you finished that section of the book? If so you know what the plan was and why she was acting that way. This actually shows how much she really cares. You have a ruler in Aleis that she made strong in the first place many years back. Which she then has to tear down because of her pledge to do what is best for Rand and she highly regrets the need for it. This is one of those seems that really show the depth of her character. To me it's almost inconceivable that people ignore her hatching a brilliant plan which saves Rand and focus on the fact that her plan included needing to force her way into a palace. It's like yeah she saved Rand so he will have a chance to fight at TG but she was rude!!! I mean really?

 

Sutt, it may just be the way RJ wrote her that I don't like. This seems to be the way Cadsuane works. She needs to do something and wants to be crafty about it. She tells those in her group what they need to know. Some more than others, which is fine. She tells the ones who need to be in the know:

"We're going to (fill in the blank) there will be a man/woman at the door. When we enter, I will be outwardly rude to him/her - to throw him/her off. When they bring us to Person B, I will be rude to that person in a slightly different way. While I'm being rude with this person, I want you to....." etc

 

It's kind of ridiculous.

[Suttree]

I'm sorry, Sutt. She's rude to everyone. The first counselor she meets she's rude to. Her plan with everyone is to be rude, whether there's a deeper reason or not. Other people have plans too, but if it involved them being rude to her she'd flip. That's what it seems like.

 

Not sure what you are sorry about. We know for fact in this instance her and Aleis had a history. That is why se secured the pledge from the WF that she goes wherever they do. This gained her access and allowed her to play to a position of strength which was needed for when they play their gambit with the guardian. Have you finished that section of the book? If so you know what the plan was and why she was acting that way. This actually shows how much she really cares. You have a ruler in Aleis that she made strong in the first place many years back. Which she then has to tear down because of her pledge to do what is best for Rand and she highly regrets the need for it. This is one of those seems that really show the depth of her character. To me it's almost inconceivable that people ignore her hatching a brilliant plan which saves Rand and focus on the fact that her plan included needing to force her way into a palace. It's like yeah she saved Rand so he will have a chance to fight at TG but she was rude!!! I mean really?

 

Sutt, it may just be the way RJ wrote her that I don't like. This seems to be the way Cadsuane works. She needs to do something and wants to be crafty about it. She tells those in her group what they need to know. Some more than others, which is fine. She tells the ones who need to be in the know:

"We're going to (fill in the blank) there will be a man/woman at the door. When we enter, I will be outwardly rude to him/her - to throw him/her off. When they bring us to Person B, I will be rude to that person in a slightly different way. While I'm being rude with this person, I want you to....." etc

 

It's kind of ridiculous.

 

Come on now, at this point you are being disingenuous about the scene. She forced the invite and was rude to gain access. From there they have an Ashaman channel to set off the guardian with all present, which sets up the play down the line using the well to pretend there is a chink in the guardian to rescue Rand. At that point we see her deeply regret the need to do it all. To claim what you are here and only focus on the first step of her being rude is purposely ignoring the point of this section and is an unfair judgement. Every one of her actions had a very specific purpose.