Insanity vs. VoG revliation

[Dream]

...

And it is arguable if the Wheel taking deliberate action is necessary at all, as all that is required is the taint and being a channeler he has that regardless of what the Wheel does.

We don't know if insanity is even required to gain past memories. It could be the other way around and past life memories is what causes insanity. That actually makes more sense. Getting memories that you know you don't know is enough to wonder if there's someone else inside your head.

Both are wrong. The madness didn't cause him to get memories, nor did getting memories cause him to go mad. The memories are the madness. A man should not have the memories and voice of his past life in his head. If he does, something is wrong.

You're defining past life memories as a form of insanity. Under your definition, Mat and Birgitte are also insane. I disagree.

 

 

And dead Rand might be more desirable than Dark Rand, but that doesn't really affect my point.

Not only is dead Rand more desirable than Dark Rand, dead Rand is more desirable than Good Rand who can't answer the question.

So?

 

Also, if the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, then Rand will have the memories. It doesn't need the Dark One's help (the Taint). This completely removes the Taint from the equation.

But it doesn't remove insanity. Removing the taint doesn't mean Rand won't go insane, it just means you have to push him a bit further.

Okay, then we agree that the memories have nothing to do with the Taint.

[Randommer]

Urm, just to weigh in lazily on the whole voice versus memories debate, the single best piece of evidence for them being separate phenomena is TFoH. Rand starts having LT's memories and very clearly thinking 'LT's' thoughts as his own way before the voice appears. Eventually he starts getting freaked out and going, 'I'm not Lews Therin!' and voila: voice.

The first instances of memory and voice are TSR, chapters 9 and 10 respectively. Mere minutes apart is not "way before".

Nope. In TSR Rand speaks briefly as Lews Therin and has one or two vague memories. That's not the same thing at all as the voice. If you remember, when the voice eventually does appear, Rand makes a big deal about it when it becomes aware of his surroundings for the first time and starts sort of communicating with Rand's thoughts when he's trapped in the box; before that the voice was just random and made no sense. But I'm rereading TFoH atm, and when Rand loses concentration he has LT's thoughts in perfect conjunction with his own, not as a voice at all.

No. In TSR 10, Rand hears a voice in his head that is not his. It is the first manifestation of the voice.

I can't say I remember TSR chapter 10. But like I said I'm rereading TFoH and the voice, as it is later, is not a feature yet, but the memories and even thoughts are.

[Mr Ares]

...

And it is arguable if the Wheel taking deliberate action is necessary at all, as all that is required is the taint and being a channeler he has that regardless of what the Wheel does.

We don't know if insanity is even required to gain past memories. It could be the other way around and past life memories is what causes insanity. That actually makes more sense. Getting memories that you know you don't know is enough to wonder if there's someone else inside your head.

Both are wrong. The madness didn't cause him to get memories, nor did getting memories cause him to go mad. The memories are the madness. A man should not have the memories and voice of his past life in his head. If he does, something is wrong.

You're defining past life memories as a form of insanity. Under your definition, Mat and Birgitte are also insane. I disagree.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I said that if you have memories of a past life in your head, "something is wrong". In Birgitte's case, this is true: she was torn out of T'a'r, her memories are a result of her unnatural entry into the world. In Mat's case this is true: he has memories that were given to him by the Eelfinn. In Rand's case, he has memories of a past life, and less integration of those memories than either Birgitte or Mat. He also has a voice in his head. How did Rand come by these memories? Is it just because of super Dragon specialness? No. His mind broke through the barriers between lives. Mat, Birgitte and Rand all have different symptoms, and for Birgitte and Mat they are not the sort that could be considered mad. Rand's are. Past life memories are a symptom of insanity - not all people with them are mad (this one symptom alone is not enough for a definition of insanity), and people can definitely be considered insane without them (they are not symptomatic of every form of insaity, after all). But they are a symptom of his madness - not the cause of it, nor caused by it, but a part of it. The memories are the madness is a deliberate simplification to help you grasp this concept.

 

 

And dead Rand might be more desirable than Dark Rand, but that doesn't really affect my point.

Not only is dead Rand more desirable than Dark Rand, dead Rand is more desirable than Good Rand who can't answer the question.

So?

 

Also, if the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, then Rand will have the memories. It doesn't need the Dark One's help (the Taint). This completely removes the Taint from the equation.

But it doesn't remove insanity. Removing the taint doesn't mean Rand won't go insane, it just means you have to push him a bit further.

Okay, then we agree that the memories have nothing to do with the Taint.

Clearly we don't agree as that is not what I said. Just because the memories could potentially have manifested without the taint, doesn't mean that the taint had nothing to do with it. The taint is a contributory factor in Rand's madness. If the taint was not present, then Rand could still go mad (I present as evidence everyone who has ever gone mad in the entirety of human existence despite not having access to tainted saidin). But it was present. If a man is mad, and has been in contact with something which causes madness in those that come into contact with it, then it really doesn't take a genius to work out that said something probably contributed towards his madness in some way.

 

 

Urm, just to weigh in lazily on the whole voice versus memories debate, the single best piece of evidence for them being separate phenomena is TFoH. Rand starts having LT's memories and very clearly thinking 'LT's' thoughts as his own way before the voice appears. Eventually he starts getting freaked out and going, 'I'm not Lews Therin!' and voila: voice.

The first instances of memory and voice are TSR, chapters 9 and 10 respectively. Mere minutes apart is not "way before".

Nope. In TSR Rand speaks briefly as Lews Therin and has one or two vague memories. That's not the same thing at all as the voice. If you remember, when the voice eventually does appear, Rand makes a big deal about it when it becomes aware of his surroundings for the first time and starts sort of communicating with Rand's thoughts when he's trapped in the box; before that the voice was just random and made no sense. But I'm rereading TFoH atm, and when Rand loses concentration he has LT's thoughts in perfect conjunction with his own, not as a voice at all.

No. In TSR 10, Rand hears a voice in his head that is not his. It is the first manifestation of the voice.

I can't say I remember TSR chapter 10. But like I said I'm rereading TFoH and the voice, as it is later, is not a feature yet, but the memories and even thoughts are.

Maybe you should go back and check. The voice is a phenomenon that would be more developed later, but it did first manifest in TSR.

[Dream]

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I said that if you have memories of a past life in your head, "something is wrong". In Birgitte's case, this is true: she was torn out of T'a'r, her memories are a result of her unnatural entry into the world. In Mat's case this is true: he has memories that were given to him by the Eelfinn. In Rand's case, he has memories of a past life, and less integration of those memories than either Birgitte or Mat. He also has a voice in his head. How did Rand come by these memories? Is it just because of super Dragon specialness? No. His mind broke through the barriers between lives. Mat, Birgitte and Rand all have different symptoms, and for Birgitte and Mat they are not the sort that could be considered mad. Rand's are. Past life memories are a symptom of insanity - not all people with them are mad (this one symptom alone is not enough for a definition of insanity), and people can definitely be considered insane without them (they are not symptomatic of every form of insaity, after all). But they are a symptom of his madness - not the cause of it, nor caused by it, but a part of it. The memories are the madness is a deliberate simplification to help you grasp this concept.

Okay, so past life memories may not be madness and madness may not lead to past life memories. (This I agree with.)

 

But in Rand's case, because he has channeled tainted Saidin, past life memories and madness must go together.

 

What about without the Taint? Would Rand still have gained his past life memories?

 

 

And dead Rand might be more desirable than Dark Rand, but that doesn't really affect my point.

Not only is dead Rand more desirable than Dark Rand, dead Rand is more desirable than Good Rand who can't answer the question.

So?

 

Also, if the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, then Rand will have the memories. It doesn't need the Dark One's help (the Taint). This completely removes the Taint from the equation.

But it doesn't remove insanity. Removing the taint doesn't mean Rand won't go insane, it just means you have to push him a bit further.

Okay, then we agree that the memories have nothing to do with the Taint.

Clearly we don't agree as that is not what I said. Just because the memories could potentially have manifested without the taint, doesn't mean that the taint had nothing to do with it. The taint is a contributory factor in Rand's madness. If the taint was not present, then Rand could still go mad (I present as evidence everyone who has ever gone mad in the entirety of human existence despite not having access to tainted saidin). But it was present. If a man is mad, and has been in contact with something which causes madness in those that come into contact with it, then it really doesn't take a genius to work out that said something probably contributed towards his madness in some way.

Are you conceding the point that the Wheel wanted Rand to have the memories?

[damandred]

I think that its defiantly possible that the past life memories may not have been a result of the taint.

Its not normal for people to remember past lives,but, Rand isn't a normal person. He's the DR, plus super Ta'veren and it could of been the will of the wheel for him to have those memories.

The voice on the other hand was most certainly the taint at work. And if Rand had LTT memories subconsciously, but the madness in his mind had complete access to them, wouldn't it seem like it was the voice giving true facts instead just revealing what he already knew?

 

Last point someone said up thread(can't be bothered going back) that Rand was defiantly insane. I don't buy that.

The lights keeping it at bay, plus if Rands basically LTT now wouldn't that mean that he has LTT's capacity to cope with the pressure?

[Kahsm]

If I sneeze, I could have the cold or the flu. If I was just visiting someone with the flu, I might logically assume I had the flu, because the odds are higher. But if over a long period of time I never get a fever, chills, body aches, fatigue or vomiting... then I should really start questioning whether my assumption was right. Maybe I just had a cold.

 

 

In other words, if rand was suffering from taint symptoms he has the most mild symptoms ever, relative to the what rearranged the face of the earth. So maybe he just has a cold.

[damandred]

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying you don't think, Rand was effected by the taint?

Nynaeve saw it when she Delved his mind.

As for mild symptoms, Naef? Androl?

And the other asha'man in the BT who spoke gibberish.(Sorry haven't the book with me)

It seems the madness struck each man differently, the end result was the same.

I believe LTT and the 100 companions went mad instantly after the DO's counter stroke, but for everyone else it was a gradual process followed by the rotting of their living flesh.

All the same judging by the amount of black thorns attacking his mind and Nyn's reaction to them if not for the light protecting his brain I thing Rand would be totally cuckoo by now.

[Rose]

I am going to copy/paste something I posted on another thread. Basically, here is my position on this:

- The memories are not part of the madness. Rand has them because he is the Dragon Reborn and he needs his past memories, because he is ta'veren, because the Wheel wills it, or however else you want to explain it. Same as Mat having past memories before visiting the Finn, which was explained as the Old Blood being strong in the Two Rivers (although some think it's because of the dagger).

- The voice is part of the madness, as some have said it's a coping mechanism that he uses because he can't deal with having memories from another life in his head. I add that these memories include a memory of having a different personnality (RJ said that Rand and Lews Therin have different personnalities), which makes them even harder to deal with.

- This type of madness is similar to schizophrenia:

 

I read about a study recently with schizophrenic patients showing that some parts of their brains which are involved with distinguishing self from non-self (corollary discharge mechanisms) were not functioning properly. Now this normally affects only motor and sensory responses (you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's you doing it) but in this case they linked it to mental illness. And the idea was that the "voices" they heard were actually their own thoughts, but they were unable to identify them as their own and therefore thought they were coming from an outside source. This seems to fit pretty well the idea that LTT's voice was a coping mechanism Rand developed to deal with the memories/personality from his past life coming to the surface.

[Kahsm]

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying you don't think, Rand was effected by the taint?

Nynaeve saw it when she Delved his mind.

As for mild symptoms, Naef? Androl?

And the other asha'man in the BT who spoke gibberish.(Sorry haven't the book with me)

It seems the madness struck each man differently, the end result was the same.

I believe LTT and the 100 companions went mad instantly after the DO's counter stroke, but for everyone else it was a gradual process followed by the rotting of their living flesh.

All the same judging by the amount of black thorns attacking his mind and Nyn's reaction to them if not for the light protecting his brain I thing Rand would be totally cuckoo by now.

 

You understand perfectly. Though I'm not saying the taint wasn't responsible for the memories, I think that's still up in the air, but it didn't make him insane in any direct fashion the way it has other MCs. If you want to call him insane for hearing a voice, fine, but as Rose pointed out, intrusive memories causing a split personality is VERY different from the taint causing it.

 

It's pretty much proven in LTT's awareness of what was going on. Rand was "remembering" things related to his situation that his brain knew he shouldn't be able to know, so those thoughts manifested as another personality in his head. Then at VoG he accepted them as his own and the whole "we were always the same" makes perfect sense.

 

LTT never took over channeling, Rand was just desperate and started weaving things instinctively that he didn't recognize and didn't know where they came from. He just acted from knowledge he had separated into the LTT personality.

 

As for Nynaeve, yes he HAS taint on him, but if you've read other threads I've written in about TEotW you'll see I think the gold stuff has been there since book 1, so while he is tainted, the gold stuff keeps it from affecting him in MOST ways (it may not have helped for the memories, if that truly is a symptom). That's the "inoculation" theory. Rand has always been protected (different from immune). He was just a hypochondriac since he didn't know it.

 

Yes the symptoms are mild. You might be able to make a case that the taint isn't related to how much someone has channeled, but I think Nynaeve proves that wrong. You even put your finger on why he must have always been protected somehow. Nynaeve COULD heal the seeing of fades in every shadow, but Rand's was too complex and systemic to try removing. According to you, he had just gotten that protection at VoG, so why wasn't he cookoo, as you say, just before that? He should have been bat shit insane and rotting away already given how much he has in his head.

[Mr Ares]

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I said that if you have memories of a past life in your head, "something is wrong". In Birgitte's case, this is true: she was torn out of T'a'r, her memories are a result of her unnatural entry into the world. In Mat's case this is true: he has memories that were given to him by the Eelfinn. In Rand's case, he has memories of a past life, and less integration of those memories than either Birgitte or Mat. He also has a voice in his head. How did Rand come by these memories? Is it just because of super Dragon specialness? No. His mind broke through the barriers between lives. Mat, Birgitte and Rand all have different symptoms, and for Birgitte and Mat they are not the sort that could be considered mad. Rand's are. Past life memories are a symptom of insanity - not all people with them are mad (this one symptom alone is not enough for a definition of insanity), and people can definitely be considered insane without them (they are not symptomatic of every form of insaity, after all). But they are a symptom of his madness - not the cause of it, nor caused by it, but a part of it. The memories are the madness is a deliberate simplification to help you grasp this concept.

Okay, so past life memories may not be madness and madness may not lead to past life memories. (This I agree with.)

 

But in Rand's case, because he has channeled tainted Saidin, past life memories and madness must go together.

 

What about without the Taint? Would Rand still have gained his past life memories?

Given that this form of madness, same as any other, can manifest without the taint, then it could potentially have manifested were the taint not present. Of course, given that the taint is present and that Rand is mad, it is reasonable to assume that the one caused the other. And for Rand to develop the memories with no exposure to the taint would require he go mad.

 

 

And dead Rand might be more desirable than Dark Rand, but that doesn't really affect my point.

Not only is dead Rand more desirable than Dark Rand, dead Rand is more desirable than Good Rand who can't answer the question.

So?

 

Also, if the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, then Rand will have the memories. It doesn't need the Dark One's help (the Taint). This completely removes the Taint from the equation.

But it doesn't remove insanity. Removing the taint doesn't mean Rand won't go insane, it just means you have to push him a bit further.

Okay, then we agree that the memories have nothing to do with the Taint.

Clearly we don't agree as that is not what I said. Just because the memories could potentially have manifested without the taint, doesn't mean that the taint had nothing to do with it. The taint is a contributory factor in Rand's madness. If the taint was not present, then Rand could still go mad (I present as evidence everyone who has ever gone mad in the entirety of human existence despite not having access to tainted saidin). But it was present. If a man is mad, and has been in contact with something which causes madness in those that come into contact with it, then it really doesn't take a genius to work out that said something probably contributed towards his madness in some way.

Are you conceding the point that the Wheel wanted Rand to have the memories?

No. He has the memories, but that doesn't indicate any action on the Wheel's part to give him memories.

 

 

Yes the symptoms are mild. You might be able to make a case that the taint isn't related to how much someone has channeled, but I think Nynaeve proves that wrong.

I don't. I think the mere fact of people going insane on their first day, while others remain sane for months proves that the level of insanity one has is impacted by more than just how much of the taint one has been in contact with.

You even put your finger on why he must have always been protected somehow. Nynaeve COULD heal the seeing of fades in every shadow, but Rand's was too complex and systemic to try removing. According to you, he had just gotten that protection at VoG, so why wasn't he cookoo, as you say, just before that? He should have been bat shit insane and rotting away already given how much he has in his head.

The rotting takes time to develop. The madness is different in each case, the taint being a catalyst for madness rather than a form of it. That Rand has a more complex and systemic form of madness than Naeff is proof of nothing at all really. As for intrusive memories causing a voice, did you consider that the taint might be a causative facor, but not the only cause, of a given insanity? That is to say, without the taint, he might have been better able to cope with the memories. With the taint, he is pushed over the edge and needs the voice. To say he might be crazy (because of the voice) but that that craziness is in no way due to the craziness-causing taint and therefore he must be protected from the taint is quite illogical. Simply apply Occam's Razor: Rand is mad. Taint causes madness. Therefore the taint (probably) caused (or helped cause) Rand's madness. There is no reason to suppose Rand had any sort of taint protection from the Eye, nor any protection at any stage before VoG.

[Rose]

I agree with you, except for this:

 

Though I'm not saying the taint wasn't responsible for the memories, I think that's still up in the air, but it didn't make him insane in any direct fashion the way it has other MCs. If you want to call him insane for hearing a voice, fine, but as Rose pointed out, intrusive memories causing a split personality is VERY different from the taint causing it.

 

I still think that the voice is because of the taint, at least partially. The taint is what affected his brain and prevented him from recognizing his past memories as his own. Post-Finn, Mat has tons of memories that are not even his, but he never thinks there's someone else in his head. He recognizes them as his own thoughts, although they seem alien to him. But when Rand has memories he does not recognize, he automatically assigns them to an outside source instead of realizing that they are his own memories. Also note that it comes progressively: when he has his first LTT memories he does not hear them as a "voice", but he does wonder where that thought came from (as when he suddenly knows a weave without ever learning it). I'm thinking of TSR especially since I'm currently re-reading it.

 

The inability to realize that the "LTT" thoughts were his own, and the resulting creation of a voice, is a result of the madness in my mind. Something in his brain was preventing him from recognizing his own thoughts, which was made even worse by the fact that those thoughts came from memories of a past life he didn't want to deal with. It might have happened without the taint, but the taint certainly made it worse, I think.

[Rose]

That is to say, without the taint, he might have been better able to cope with the memories. With the taint, he is pushed over the edge and needs the voice. To say he might be crazy (because of the voice) but that that craziness is in no way due to the craziness-causing taint and therefore he must be protected from the taint is quite illogical. Simply apply Occam's Razor: Rand is mad. Taint causes madness. Therefore the taint (probably) caused (or helped cause) Rand's madness.

Agreed. Even though he might have become mad without the taint because of his past memories, the taint definitely helped.

 

I do however like the idea that he might have been somehow protected from the taint from the start, which explains why he wasn't a complete nutjob despite the amount of it in his brain (per Nynaeve's POV).

 

Of course, one could argue that he was a complete nutjob, but I like the idea that there's something else we don't yet know :)

[Kahsm]

The rotting takes time to develop. The madness is different in each case, the taint being a catalyst for madness rather than a form of it. That Rand has a more complex and systemic form of madness than Naeff is proof of nothing at all really. As for intrusive memories causing a voice, did you consider that the taint might be a causative facor, but not the only cause, of a given insanity? That is to say, without the taint, he might have been better able to cope with the memories. With the taint, he is pushed over the edge and needs the voice. To say he might be crazy (because of the voice) but that that craziness is in no way due to the craziness-causing taint and therefore he must be protected from the taint is quite illogical. Simply apply Occam's Razor: Rand is mad. Taint causes madness. Therefore the taint (probably) caused (or helped cause) Rand's madness. There is no reason to suppose Rand had any sort of taint protection from the Eye, nor any protection at any stage before VoG.

 

I believe I have even conceded that possibility, but that still plays into "mild" symptoms compared to what we have been told to expect, and what we have seen from other MCs. It's a cop out answer just to say, "Well it affects everyone differently". While true, then you could say not being insane could be a type of insanity that the taint causes... just one that's so "specialized" it has no outward symptoms. Maybe Taim has one of those right? That would make what the Reds do even more abhorrent if there are some men who can actually cope just fine with their madness and not harm others (even if they still rot away eventually).

 

I don't think that's the case though. While the effects are different, the end result of madness must be pretty devastating in some form or another, since without linking, the men did a buttload of damage to the world. Rand has never shown any irrational symptoms that seemed to progress in that direction. He had completely legit stress and anger issues, and a voice that was more rational than prego-Elayne. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

 

And yes you can argue that the taint helped cause the voice, and maybe he's just one of the luck ones where the taint takes a LONG time to do anything significant to him, but given what we saw in his head from all the Choden Kal and Callandor channeling he's done, I find it highly unlikely Rand was still at the early stages of madness.

 

I love how the simple explanation that more taint in mind = more madness is "proof of nothing". But then you turn around and try to pull Occam's Razor on me for your own argument. Occam's razor isn't a substitute for logic and reason, it's only a rule of thumb when two theories can equally explain an observation. And my argument is that yours isn't as strong as mine. Your argument is that mine isn't as strong as yours. So either way, it can't be applied. To apply Occam's Razor you'd have to say "Given all the evidence we have available your theory works as well as mine, but mine is simpler, and therefore more likely". Unfortunately that still wouldn't apply because that's based on real life and this is a fantasy novel -- so really a reverse-razor might actually be more appropriate.

 

So yes, there is a good reason to think he has been protected in some way shape or form before VoG. Most people seem to think Taim has some sort of protection, yet I highly doubt he's channeled near as much as Rand, and we don't get to see much of him to even judge sane or not. If Rand is actually so far gone, maybe Taim is too. But it's logical to question Taim, and it's logical to question Rand, because it doesn't smell right.

[Dream]

Okay, so past life memories may not be madness and madness may not lead to past life memories. (This I agree with.)

 

But in Rand's case, because he has channeled tainted Saidin, past life memories and madness must go together.

 

What about without the Taint? Would Rand still have gained his past life memories?

Given that this form of madness, same as any other, can manifest without the taint, then it could potentially have manifested were the taint not present. Of course, given that the taint is present and that Rand is mad, it is reasonable to assume that the one caused the other. And for Rand to develop the memories with no exposure to the taint would require he go mad.

There is no evidence to suggest insanity is required for past life memories. And we've established that there are at least two other ways to gain past life memories without insanity. Therefore there is no basis to support that past life memories require insanity.

 

 

Are you conceding the point that the Wheel wanted Rand to have the memories?

No. He has the memories, but that doesn't indicate any action on the Wheel's part to give him memories.

If the Wheel didn't want Rand to have his memories then why does the Wheel want him dead if he didn't have them. Let me highlight this point from the quote I gave earlier.

 

ToM, Ch. 51:

"...How was the fallen slain? Tellindal Tirraso, murdered by his hand, the darkness that came the day after the light. You must ask, and you must know your fate. If he cannot answer then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it."

[Rose]

I would like to point out that the memories being willed by the Wheel, and them being taint-induced, are not mutually exclusive. The Wheel weaves everything into the pattern, good and bad. It may very well be that the taint was the means the Wheel used to ensure that Rand would have the memories he needed to succeed in his task.

 

I know this somewhat contradicts what I said before, but I am allowed to question myself :)

[Suttree]

Okay, so past life memories may not be madness and madness may not lead to past life memories. (This I agree with.)

 

But in Rand's case, because he has channeled tainted Saidin, past life memories and madness must go together.

 

What about without the Taint? Would Rand still have gained his past life memories?

Given that this form of madness, same as any other, can manifest without the taint, then it could potentially have manifested were the taint not present. Of course, given that the taint is present and that Rand is mad, it is reasonable to assume that the one caused the other. And for Rand to develop the memories with no exposure to the taint would require he go mad.

There is no evidence to suggest insanity is required for past life memories. And we've established that there are at least two other ways to gain past life memories without insanity. Therefore there is no basis to support that past life memories require insanity.

 

Just to point out. Unless you are a Hero of the Horn ripped out of Tar(of which Birgitte is subsequently losing those memories because it isn't natural), or received others memories through Magic wishes it's not going to happen. Using those two really has no bearing on the discussion.

[Thrasymachus]

People keep talking about the Wheel as if it has some kind of causal efficacy apart from that of all the people and stuff in the world. The "will of the Wheel" is just a poetic way of saying "That stuff was pre-determined, even though nobody realized it at the time." Even if we grant that the Wheel wanted Rand to have Lews Therin's memories (whatever that could possibly mean), it still needs some way to get those memories to him. Enter the taint. Was Rand destined to get Lews Therin's memories? Certainly. He was destined to get them because he was destined to be tainted, and he was destined to grow up in a culture and have the sort of personality where the invasion of Lews Therins memories into his consciousness was the most effective way to attack his sanity. He was also destined to overcome the insanity-causing part of having past-life memories.

 

I like the Kael's idea that something about the well of pure Saidin from the Eye of the World inoculated Rand against the taint, but really because it's the only attempt I've seen so far to explain the shiny silvery stuff protecting Rand's brain from the dark barbs Nyn sees. It also raises many more questions, and it's unclear whether the other questions it's supposed to answer really need answers. If Rand had that kind of protection that early on, then why does the invasion of LTT memories become so much more severe later on? If those memories are not caused by the taint, then what are they caused by? You don't get to say the Wheel, because the Wheel acts through the threads of the Pattern. Specify the threads, and the pattern they're woven in, to get Rand those memories without being tainted. Maybe they're caused by whatever is protecting Rand from the taint that he got at the Eye? But we really don't know at this point that Rand got the shiny silvery brain insulation from the Eye. It's entirely possible that it's coming from Rand himself at this point, or even that it's a relic of the madness cure given to LTT by Ishy and left at the peak of Dragonmount after LTT decided to see how much bigger of a dick he could be sane than he ever was as a madman by seeing if he could channel enough saidin to crack the planet before he died.

 

And if Rand is protected from the madness of the taint, then why does he keep getting progressively more and more bonkers up until his revelation? That doesn't seem like a very good protection. And it seems false to downplay Rand's madness, and the madness of the other Ashaman who do go mad. Every male channeler I've seen in the series that's gone mad has looked to me like he could be pretty darn destructive if you left him alone long enough. Even the ones who are still holding it together a bit look to me to be right on the verge of doing something that would change the face of the earth, at least the little bit of the earth where they're at. What if that dude that saw fades in the shadows suddenly got sick or scared enough of it and decided to eliminate all the shadows? Maybe RJ should have written a scene where some random MC goes bonkers and levels a village or something. Rand's madness was particularly destructive. He balefires a fully functioning estate, essentially a small village, out of existence. Maybe you don't see this as madness because you get to hear Rand's justification for doing it, and maybe you agree with that justification. But you're wrong, and so was Rand. His target figured him out and she escaped. And after he spent a few days being locked up in a trunk all day and being taken out for breakfast and dinner-time beatings, the very next thing he did was attack a city, and stronghold of one of his more powerful enemies, and then heedlessly followed him to possibly the most dangerous place in the world outside of Thakan'dar, knowing full well that his enemy probably made the place much more dangerous than it usually was, specifically for him. That doesn't seem particularly sane to me, nor would I call that level of insanity benign or even mostly harmless. In the end, he nearly balefired his foster-father and one of the Great Cities, fer crying out loud.

 

Edit rather than double-post:

 

Also, I think the idea that LTT memories didn't help Rand's phenomenally fast acquisition of sword and channeling skills to be a bit silly. With both hands, Rand is listed as the #2 swordsman in the world, right after Lan, who was almost literally born with a sword in his hand. Galad and Gawyn, the two semi-main characters closest to him in age and sword-skills, have spent their whole lives training, and Rand's still better, after about a year of hard training and no prior experience. Same thing with channeling. Rand performs ridiculously complex weaves very early on without really even knowing what he's doing. He didn't start out making little flames and balls of light or switches of Air like the Mary Sue's. His first weave was refreshing a running horse he wasn't riding, while riding. Moiraine has to stop to do that weave on everybody, and it wears her out. Then he calls lightning from the sky. Then he summons whole fields of flames to kill legions of trollocs all at once, does some kind of Traveling, and creates a sword out of the Power. And nobody had taught him jack about the Power yet. He keeps teaching himself all the way to Rhuidean, doing things like activating Portal stones along the way. If I was a 20 year old kid who'd taught myself that much of the Power, I'd think I was pretty badass and didn't need a teacher, so screw you Asmodean, you're dead. But Rand knows how much he doesn't know. That's a perspective he could only get from Lews Therin. If you read the books carefully, you'll see that Lews Therin's instincts, abilities, memories and perspectives start to emerge in Rand almost as soon as he starts to channel.

[Dream]

I would like to point out that the memories being willed by the Wheel, and them being taint-induced, are not mutually exclusive. The Wheel weaves everything into the pattern, good and bad. It may very well be that the taint was the means the Wheel used to ensure that Rand would have the memories he needed to succeed in his task.

 

I know this somewhat contradicts what I said before, but I am allowed to question myself :)

It's not mutually exclusive, I agree.

 

But the Wheel using the Taint to give Rand memories implies the Dark One always taints it in every turning of the Wheel. Which either implies the Dark One is incapable of change or under the influence of the Wheel. I'm not too fond of either ideas.

 

 

 

Just to point out. Unless you are a Hero of the Horn ripped out of Tar(of which Birgitte is subsequently losing those memories because it isn't natural), or received others memories through Magic wishes it's not going to happen. Using those two really has no bearing on the discussion.

Yes it does. It answers the question "Does receiving past life memories require insanity." And the answer is no. This does not prove that insanity isn't the mechanism the Wheel uses. But it clearly shows that it doesn't have to. Unless you believe 'Finn magic is superior to Wheel magic.

 

 

 

People keep talking about the Wheel as if it has some kind of causal efficacy apart from that of all the people and stuff in the world. The "will of the Wheel" is just a poetic way of saying "That stuff was pre-determined, even though nobody realized it at the time." Even if we grant that the Wheel wanted Rand to have Lews Therin's memories (whatever that could possibly mean), it still needs some way to get those memories to him. Enter the taint. Was Rand destined to get Lews Therin's memories? Certainly. He was destined to get them because he was destined to be tainted, and he was destined to grow up in a culture and have the sort of personality where the invasion of Lews Therins memories into his consciousness was the most effective way to attack his sanity. He was also destined to overcome the insanity-causing part of having past-life memories.

RJ said this about the Wheel:

"The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine."

 

And as to my objections with the Wheel using the Taint, see above in this post.

[Thrasymachus]

I'm not saying the Wheel is a simple mechanism. I'm saying the Wheel is the sum of all the causal factors that already exist in the world. It's similar to the Liebnizian/Kantian view of pre-determination. The Wheel is the sum of all the necessities that are entailed by what's happened and what's continuing to happen. That's not simple at all, it's incredibly complex. That's also why the Fortellings/Dreamings happen, and why they are linked to what "the Wheel wills." They tap into one or several lines of causal necessity that have already happened and are presently happening that would otherwise be hidden from view, and read what it entails. The spitting out of Ta'veren is pre-determined too, because it's pre-determined when and in what way the Pattern drifts from what it's "supposed to be." Ta'veren is just an appearance of a temporary twisting of chance around one person anyway. Nobody, even the Dragon Reborn, is born Ta'veren. Rand didn't become Ta'veren until shortly before or just after Moiraine's appearance. And he becomes more strongly Ta'veren as the series progresses, which just means that the things that happen around him are more and more improbable. But improbable things are still possible, indeed, they can still be necessary, and that's just what Ta'veren is: improbable things happening a bunch around some guy for a little while because it is necessary that those things happen then, around and to this guy due to the prior confluence of events. Everything the Wheel does is done through the Pattern. Without the Pattern, there may as well be no Wheel.

 

As far as the taint and the actions of the Dark One being part of the Pattern, of course they are, especially after the Dark One imposes them on the Pattern. Remember that the prophecy about Rand either remembering Tellindal Tirraso or having to be killed was made after Saidin was tainted. Events that take place in the world impose their own subsequent necessities on what takes place afterwards, as well as opening up other possibilities. But being part of the Pattern doesn't mean that everything is pre-determined. Randland seems to be much like our world, in that some things that happen absolutely, necessarily must and will happen, no matter what anybody does to try to stop it, and some things may happen or may not and trying to stop something from happening might inadvertently cause it, but nobody can tell which is which beforehand except for the Dreamers/Foretellers, and even they can only do so in an allegorical, figurative or vague sense that rarely helps anybody figure out what it means until after the prophesied event has already taken place or which set up their own fruition as a self-fulfilling prophecy, as the Tellindal Tirraso prophecy did.

[lostcause]

Don't forget Mat had minor signs of old memories before he made his wishes.

 

He still yelled and spoke in the Old Tongue now and then, without knowing it - I believe RJ said it was a sign of the blood of Manetheren was running strong in Two Rivers folk, and especially in Mat. Still, suddenly yelling in a forgotten language you never studied, without really knowing, is in the same ballpark as having memories of past lives, if on a much lesser scale.

[Dream]

I'm not saying the Wheel is a simple mechanism. I'm saying the Wheel is the sum of all the causal factors that already exist in the world. It's similar to the Liebnizian/Kantian view of pre-determination. The Wheel is the sum of all the necessities that are entailed by what's happened and what's continuing to happen. That's not simple at all, it's incredibly complex. That's also why the Fortellings/Dreamings happen, and why they are linked to what "the Wheel wills." They tap into one or several lines of causal necessity that have already happened and are presently happening that would otherwise be hidden from view, and read what it entails. The spitting out of Ta'veren is pre-determined too, because it's pre-determined when and in what way the Pattern drifts from what it's "supposed to be." Ta'veren is just an appearance of a temporary twisting of chance around one person anyway. Nobody, even the Dragon Reborn, is born Ta'veren. Rand didn't become Ta'veren until shortly before or just after Moiraine's appearance. And he becomes more strongly Ta'veren as the series progresses, which just means that the things that happen around him are more and more improbable. But improbable things are still possible, indeed, they can still be necessary, and that's just what Ta'veren is: improbable things happening a bunch around some guy for a little while because it is necessary that those things happen then, around and to this guy due to the prior confluence of events. Everything the Wheel does is done through the Pattern. Without the Pattern, there may as well be no Wheel.

The Wheel isn't sentient, but it is reactive. Ta'verens and Heroes aren't spun out because the Pattern is exactly how it's supposed to be. They are spun out because the Pattern is straying from what it's supposed to be. And the Pattern is straying because individual threads are straying. Not everything is pre-determined.

 

 

As far as the taint and the actions of the Dark One being part of the Pattern, of course they are, especially after the Dark One imposes them on the Pattern. Remember that the prophecy about Rand either remembering Tellindal Tirraso or having to be killed was made after Saidin was tainted. Events that take place in the world impose their own subsequent necessities on what takes place afterwards, as well as opening up other possibilities. But being part of the Pattern doesn't mean that everything is pre-determined. Randland seems to be much like our world, in that some things that happen absolutely, necessarily must and will happen, no matter what anybody does to try to stop it, and some things may happen or may not and trying to stop something from happening might inadvertently cause it, but nobody can tell which is which beforehand except for the Dreamers/Foretellers, and even they can only do so in an allegorical, figurative or vague sense that rarely helps anybody figure out what it means until after the prophesied event has already taken place or which set up their own fruition as a self-fulfilling prophecy, as the Tellindal Tirraso prophecy did.

Referring to the bolded part; Come again?

 

As to the Taint and actions of the Dark One becoming part of the Pattern, I see it more as the Wheel trying to weave the Pattern around those disruptions. Everything about the Dark One just screams "outside of the Pattern." Using the TP doesn't change the Pattern, it rips it apart.

[Thrasymachus]

We know the Dark One is outside the Pattern. That's where the Creator put him. And nobody's making the claim that, in every turning of the Wheel, the Dark One has to taint Saidin. I'm not even going to concede that Rand needs the LTT memories to succeed, or that the Wheel intends and grants the life memories of the Dragon to the Dragon Reborn in every turning, because there may not even need to be a Dragon Reborn in every turning. The whole thing is situational, but those situations have large elements that repeat. You can pretty much map the macro-characteristics of the Pattern: Channeling is discovered -> Dark One is set free -> Dark One is resealed -> Channeling is lost. Wash, rinse, repeat. But the specifics of how each part is accomplished can vary. We know this because RJ said so. How much they can vary is an open question. Is it necessary that the Dragon fail his first attempt to re-seal the Dark One? Maybe. Is it necessary that women refuse to help LTT? Probably not. So, maybe in some alternate turning, both saidin and saidar get tainted, and maybe, because the taint is spread across both, it's overextended and eventually wears off.

 

The point is, we don't know what's necessary and what's not. We don't know the intentions of the Wheel. One way of interpreting what the Dark One's trying to to is to get the Wheel to intend its own destruction. The Dark One does not appear to be capable of tearing the Pattern asunder on his own, or of breaking the Wheel. It needs certain elements of the Pattern to do that for it. We don't have any way of telling the difference between the Wheel's manipulation of a thread, or the Dark One's manipulation of a thread, without being explicitly told by the narrator, because both are acting concurrently and both are capable of the same results. We do have evidence of how the Wheel works through the threads of the Pattern, in that the events that surround Ta'veren and which nudge the Pattern back towards those macro-events which must occur are coincidences and improbabilities. The Wheel doesn't "magically" push threads towards the macro-pattern, it does it using the already present causal powers of the things in the world. The things which happen around Ta'veren and which occur to correct the weaving of the Pattern aren't impossibilities, just improbabilities. That is, it's not that the things which happen around Ta'veren couldn't occur at all without that level of influence of the Wheel/Ta'veren, just that they'd appear to be less likely in other circumstances. And since everything that happens is influenced by the Wheel, it doesn't even really make sense to say that the things which happen around Ta'veren are improbable. They are in fact necessary, because the things that have happened prior to and around that event have made them necessary.

 

Another way to see this is to look at Ta'veren themselves. It's repeatedly mentioned that Ta'veren have less freedom than other people. Their choices and actions are dictated by the Pattern to a far greater degree than those of a common individual. In other words, Ta'verens are a locus of necessity. Nearly everything that occurs around a Ta'veren should be viewed as if it could not have happened in any other way, despite the fact that what occurs is often so bizarre and rare. Despite appearances, Rand didn't have any choice but to demand that the Aes Sedai from Cairhein from both the White Tower and Salidar factions swear fealty to him. The Aes Sedai in question didn't have any choice but to submit, and not just because Rand might have had them killed otherwise. Their own personalities, experiences and their present situation made it impossible for any other outcome to have occurred. You can call that the Wheel pulling threads to fit its design, but the Wheel always pulls threads to fit its design. The reason these events could not have occurred otherwise is because there is no other weave to weave these threads into the Pattern, which is a consequence of how they have been woven and where they lay in the already woven Pattern.

 

As for the part that you've bolded, what part do you need explained? That some events that occur in Randland must occur and could not have occurred otherwise (Min's viewings, certain prophecies, the release and subsequent re-imprisonment of the Dark One)? Or that some events that occur in our world must occur, and cannot occur otherwise (the sun will rise tomorrow in the East, everybody reading this will one day die, the distribution of wealth in a free market economy will always follow a power-curve, heat flows from greater density to lesser density, etc.)?

[Rose]

I would like to point out that the memories being willed by the Wheel, and them being taint-induced, are not mutually exclusive. The Wheel weaves everything into the pattern, good and bad. It may very well be that the taint was the means the Wheel used to ensure that Rand would have the memories he needed to succeed in his task.

 

I know this somewhat contradicts what I said before, but I am allowed to question myself :)

It's not mutually exclusive, I agree.

 

But the Wheel using the Taint to give Rand memories implies the Dark One always taints it in every turning of the Wheel. Which either implies the Dark One is incapable of change or under the influence of the Wheel. I'm not too fond of either ideas.

 

 

I have always assumed that the Dark One does taint the male half of the Source at every turning. It does not necessarily mean that he's not capable of change. Maybe he knows that it's the only way he could win, and so he does it every time, each time hoping to get all the elements in place to lead to his victory. It just hasn't worked yet.

 

There's also the fact that if the Dark One is outside the Pattern, does it mean that he's outside of time? That time does not flow for him the same way it does for everybody else? Because in that case, maybe it doesn't have the same meaning that he does something at every turning. I don't really understand it, actually! :)

[Mr Ares]

The rotting takes time to develop. The madness is different in each case, the taint being a catalyst for madness rather than a form of it. That Rand has a more complex and systemic form of madness than Naeff is proof of nothing at all really. As for intrusive memories causing a voice, did you consider that the taint might be a causative facor, but not the only cause, of a given insanity? That is to say, without the taint, he might have been better able to cope with the memories. With the taint, he is pushed over the edge and needs the voice. To say he might be crazy (because of the voice) but that that craziness is in no way due to the craziness-causing taint and therefore he must be protected from the taint is quite illogical. Simply apply Occam's Razor: Rand is mad. Taint causes madness. Therefore the taint (probably) caused (or helped cause) Rand's madness. There is no reason to suppose Rand had any sort of taint protection from the Eye, nor any protection at any stage before VoG.

I believe I have even conceded that possibility, but that still plays into "mild" symptoms compared to what we have been told to expect, and what we have seen from other MCs. It's a cop out answer just to say, "Well it affects everyone differently". While true, then you could say not being insane could be a type of insanity that the taint causes... just one that's so "specialized" it has no outward symptoms. Maybe Taim has one of those right? That would make what the Reds do even more abhorrent if there are some men who can actually cope just fine with their madness and not harm others (even if they still rot away eventually).

We have seen a variety of different symptoms from different male channelers, some rather less severe than Rand's. And given Rand's is supposed to be a degenarative condition - that it to say, he'll get worse - the mere fact of him not being as bad as, say, someone who has already suffered a psychotic break, doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. Rand's symptoms are not "mild" compared to what we have been told to expect. Nor are they severe. We have to expect a wide range, and Rand is within that range. Not being insane being a type of insanity is something you would probably have a great deal of difficulty trying to argue. It's something I'd probably struggle with, and I'm much smarter than you. It's highly illogical - the mere fact of something not being something else is evidence against, not for, that something else being the same as the first something.

 

I don't think that's the case though. While the effects are different, the end result of madness must be pretty devastating in some form or another, since without linking, the men did a buttload of damage to the world. Rand has never shown any irrational symptoms that seemed to progress in that direction. He had completely legit stress and anger issues, and a voice that was more rational than prego-Elayne. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

Yes, a voice that wants to KILL EVERYONE or commit suicide, or murder a man on first meeting, is incredibly rational. Being unable to tell what's you and what isn't is in no way a sign of something wrong in the old noggin, everything in Rand's brain department is perfectly hunky-dory, thank you very much. Denial. Not just a river in Egypt. The evidence for Rand being a few branches short of a tree is overwhelming to most people - including RJ and BS. That Rand is mad is clear. That he is intended to be seen as mad is clear. Rand held on well enough - he owned his madness, it did not own him - but I think it's pretty clear that if nothing was done to correct matters, he was goingt to take a turn for the worse sooner or later. Which he did, in the Last That Could Be Done. I'd say the end result of that madness was looking like it could be pretty devastating. Or at least, I'd consider levelling cities to be devastating. Maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned like that.

 

I love how the simple explanation that more taint in mind = more madness is "proof of nothing".

No. The mere fact of some people going mad despite significantly less contact with the taint that others who remain sane is proof that more taint most definitely does not = more madness. The mere fact of the evidence slapping you in the face and saying "Wrong!" means we don't need to apply Occam's Razor. A Theory that might be right is automatically better than one that must be wrong. The proof of nothing was about Rand having a more "complex and systemic" madness than others. All it proves is itself - that some people have more complex madnesses than others.

But then you turn around and try to pull Occam's Razor on me for your own argument. Occam's razor isn't a substitute for logic and reason, it's only a rule of thumb when two theories can equally explain an observation. And my argument is that yours isn't as strong as mine. Your argument is that mine isn't as strong as yours. So either way, it can't be applied. To apply Occam's Razor you'd have to say "Given all the evidence we have available your theory works as well as mine, but mine is simpler, and therefore more likely". Unfortunately that still wouldn't apply because that's based on real life and this is a fantasy novel -- so really a reverse-razor might actually be more appropriate.

Two theories: the first is that Rand madness is caused by the thing that causes madness and that he has no protection from the thing that causes madness. The second is that Rand is mad, but that madness does not relate to the thing that causes madness, so Rand must therefore have protection from the thing that causes madness, otherwise he would be mad... well, madder. Which of those is simpler? The notion of Rand having extra taint protection is just a bunch of unneccessary bells and whistles. It doesn't really add anything, other than an explanation for why Rand isn't madder. Which isn't needed, because we already have one. This being a fantasy novel does not mean that Occam's Razor no longer applies. The most complex theory does not seem more probable just because a story has magic in it. It is a principle that holds true, and it is a principle that tells us to be very wary of your theory.

 

 

Okay, so past life memories may not be madness and madness may not lead to past life memories. (This I agree with.)

 

But in Rand's case, because he has channeled tainted Saidin, past life memories and madness must go together.

 

What about without the Taint? Would Rand still have gained his past life memories?

Given that this form of madness, same as any other, can manifest without the taint, then it could potentially have manifested were the taint not present. Of course, given that the taint is present and that Rand is mad, it is reasonable to assume that the one caused the other. And for Rand to develop the memories with no exposure to the taint would require he go mad.

There is no evidence to suggest insanity is required for past life memories.

No, but the evidence does suggest that Rand's memories are a symptom of a form of madness. And we've established that there are at least two other ways to gain past life memories without insanity. Therefore there is no basis to support that past life memories require insanity. Therefore there is ample basis to say that Rand's pat life memories require insanity.

 

 

Are you conceding the point that the Wheel wanted Rand to have the memories?

No. He has the memories, but that doesn't indicate any action on the Wheel's part to give him memories.

If the Wheel didn't want Rand to have his memories then why does the Wheel want him dead if he didn't have them.

Not the point I made. Whether the Wheel wants them or not does not mean that the Wheel acted.

 

People keep talking about the Wheel as if it has some kind of causal efficacy apart from that of all the people and stuff in the world. The "will of the Wheel" is just a poetic way of saying "That stuff was pre-determined, even though nobody realized it at the time."

No, it's a poetic way of saying this is what the Wheel wants.

 

Also, I think the idea that LTT memories didn't help Rand's phenomenally fast acquisition of sword and channeling skills to be a bit silly. With both hands, Rand is listed as the #2 swordsman in the world, right after Lan, who was almost literally born with a sword in his hand. Galad and Gawyn, the two semi-main characters closest to him in age and sword-skills, have spent their whole lives training, and Rand's still better, after about a year of hard training and no prior experience. Same thing with channeling. Rand performs ridiculously complex weaves very early on without really even knowing what he's doing. He didn't start out making little flames and balls of light or switches of Air like the Mary Sue's. His first weave was refreshing a running horse he wasn't riding, while riding. Moiraine has to stop to do that weave on everybody, and it wears her out. Then he calls lightning from the sky. Then he summons whole fields of flames to kill legions of trollocs all at once, does some kind of Traveling, and creates a sword out of the Power. And nobody had taught him jack about the Power yet. He keeps teaching himself all the way to Rhuidean, doing things like activating Portal stones along the way. If I was a 20 year old kid who'd taught myself that much of the Power, I'd think I was pretty badass and didn't need a teacher, so screw you Asmodean, you're dead. But Rand knows how much he doesn't know. That's a perspective he could only get from Lews Therin. If you read the books carefully, you'll see that Lews Therin's instincts, abilities, memories and perspectives start to emerge in Rand almost as soon as he starts to channel.

The only evidence you have is that Rand is a good swordsman/channeler/etc., and therefore he must be good because of LTT. You cannot provide any actual evidence to support the notion that LTT was actually present, subconciously or otherwise. Further, LTT doesn't explain how Nynaeve learnt Healing - a very complex weave yet Nynaeve was using it from the off, same as Rand was his complex weaves. He started by refreshing a horse, she started by saving a life (I'm sure some fans haven't yet forgiven her for that). Nor does it explain how Egwene went from Innkeeper's daughter to the best possible candidate for the Amyrlin Seat, master politician, expert Dreamwalker, etc., etc. in the same space of time. Rand becomes a good swordsman in an implausibly short while. Egwene becomes a master politician in an implausibly short while. Now you could say Rand did it because of LTT, but that doesn't explain anyone else. Alternatively, you could just say that RJ had his characters learnt hings as fast as they possibly could, even if it stetched credulity to the limit (or beyond for some people). He needed villagers at the start and statesmen at the end. He had a couple of years, in story, tog et them from a to b. He did it as well as he could. It probably would have been better to give the series a longer timeframe (if it took place over ten years, for example) or to reduce the importance of those villagers. But he didn't. As for why he needed Asmo as a teacher, he could not reliably touch the Source before Asmo came along. Being the biggest badass in the world doesn't help you much if it is reliant on something you have no control over. It doesn't need great perspective from LTT, or a revelation from on high. Merely common sense.

 

 

I would like to point out that the memories being willed by the Wheel, and them being taint-induced, are not mutually exclusive. The Wheel weaves everything into the pattern, good and bad. It may very well be that the taint was the means the Wheel used to ensure that Rand would have the memories he needed to succeed in his task.

 

I know this somewhat contradicts what I said before, but I am allowed to question myself :)

It's not mutually exclusive, I agree.

 

But the Wheel using the Taint to give Rand memories implies the Dark One always taints it in every turning of the Wheel. Which either implies the Dark One is incapable of change or under the influence of the Wheel. I'm not too fond of either ideas.

It implies no such thing. Not unless you operate under the assumption that Rand must always have memories, which there is no reason to believe.

[damandred]

Haven't got the book with me but, doesn't Elayne make a comment about veins of gold in WH just after she, avi and min bond Rand?

If so, doesn't that support the idea that rand had this light in his mind before VoG in ToM. Not that I'm sold on Kael's Eye theory