Insanity vs. VoG revliation

[Thrasymachus]

See, I have the opposite interpretation. Could Rand have gone mad without the taint? Almost certainly. He is under an inhuman amount of stress, after all. I could easily see him developing an alternate personality and calling it Lews and going all Dark in the absence of the taint or the memories. And while we have seen other, non-tainted characters appear to have some access to memories of their past lives, that access appears to be highly subconscious and non-specific. The taint itself appears to work by magnifying the innate tendencies towards madness that already exist. If Rand's tendency towards madness involved his obsession with his previous life, and his fears that his failures in that life will forever haunt him, coupled with his tendency to dissociate parts of his personality from other parts and talk to himself in his head, then the taint would magnify all of those things. It would make his previous life seem even more important an object for obsession, increase his tendency to divide his personality against itself and solidify the division into two distinct personalities, and most importantly for the memories, it would make the memories of his failures from his previous life more distinct and more prolific.

 

So, if we take it as a given that at least Pattern-important individuals normally do have some kind of ties to their previous lives in the form of subconscious memories and instincts, then it makes sense that Rand's fully-conscious and robust access to the memories of his former life is a result of the taint, because it is his connection to and obsession with that former life that makes him susceptible to madness. Without the taint, he would have had some Lews Therin-ish instincts and would perhaps have been more intuitive and quicker at learning the Power than a normal male channeler would have been. He probably would have remained somewhat obsessed with his previous life, and maybe even become a bit eccentric about it, but because the only thing he could beat himself up about it with would be 3000 year old stories of dubious veracity, it probably wouldn't have gotten much worse. With the taint, he has a full blown Lews Therin personality and robust access to his previous live's memories. Both the personality and the memories, which are more interdependent than independent, are what drives Rand to full-blown madness. He remembers his previous live's failures with detail and full emotional impact. In short, moving the memories of his previous life from subconscious and indistinct to fully conscious and robust are a necessary precondition for Rand's descent into madness, or, if not necessary, then a sufficiently effective precondition as to be targeted by the taint. And we know that fully conscious and robust access to true memories from previous lives is a real kind of mental illness in Randland. It's happened to other people before, which is why Semi can confidently claim that when it occurs, the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt. Thus, making past life memories available should be within the powers of the taint to accomplish, and in Rand's case doing so would be super-effective in making him go bonkers, therefore, parsimony suggests that the taint is responsible for the past life memories.

 

And Lanfear doesn't expect Rand to remember her. She's surprised when he does remember some things about her, but she's also good at covering up her surprise, and may not herself be fully aware of the implications of that kind of memory. Lanfear's also a special kind of crazy. She's entirely self-absorbed. She calls Rand Lews Therin because she knows that's a sore spot for Rand, because she knows its the same soul and one that she wants to capture and command. If anything, she calls Rand Lews Therin more because she knows it will unnerve and upset him and therefore give her the advantage than because she thinks he remembers his previous life in full detail. But she also knows he remembers at least some of it because he gives himself away.

[Dream]

...

Thus, making past life memories available should be within the powers of the taint to accomplish, and in Rand's case doing so would be super-effective in making him go bonkers, therefore, parsimony suggests that the taint is responsible for the past life memories.

Your conclusion is based on a lot of speculation. There is no evidence the Taint makes past life memories available. We have seen many insane male channelers and only one (Rand) can hear a real voice. From Semirhage's revelation, hearing real voices is a natural (not Taint-related) phenomenon. Therefore, there is nothing to suggest that the memories are a result of the Taint.

 

On the contrary, the fact that the shielding in Rand's mind coincided with his regaining his memory suggests that if anything the Taint hindered this process.

[Suttree]

...

Thus, making past life memories available should be within the powers of the taint to accomplish, and in Rand's case doing so would be super-effective in making him go bonkers, therefore, parsimony suggests that the taint is responsible for the past life memories.

Your conclusion is based on a lot of speculation. There is no evidence the Taint makes past life memories available. We have seen many insane male channelers and only one (Rand) can hear a real voice. From Semirhage's revelation, hearing real voices is a natural (not Taint-related) phenomenon. Therefore, there is nothing to suggest that the memories are a result of the Taint.

 

On the contrary, the fact that the shielding in Rand's mind coincided with his regaining his memory suggests that if anything the Taint hindered this process.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

 

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

[Thrasymachus]

Insanity is a natural phenomenon though. You don't have to be tainted to go mad. So when the taint makes MCs go mad, it's not the nature of the insanity that's unnatural, but its cause. We actually see a lot of examples of crazy male channelers, all along the spectrum of the insanity it causes. None of them seem to have any more than normal sorts of mental illnesses. They see bugs under their skin, hear voices, are overwhelmed by feelings of paranoia and by visual, tactile and auditory hallucinations. If we were in a mental asylum, none of these guys or their symptoms would seem strange. The only thing that's supernatural about the madness that's caused by the taint is the rate at which it occurs, i.e. 100% over long enough time frames.

 

Being aware of "true memories" of your past life is a "normal" sort of madness in the sense that you don't have to be tainted to get it. You also don't have to be tainted to feel bugs crawling under your skin or see "bad guys" in the shadows. So the taint causes normal madness, and having true memories of your past life is a normal madness. If there is a way to go mad without the taint, then the taint should be able to make you go mad that way too. The question is whether Rand would have those memories of his previous live(s) if he weren't tainted. And unfortunately at this point, there's really no way to tell. Healing Rand of the taint probably wouldn't remove the memories now, even if it was the cause (or a cause) of Rand's growing conscious access to them, because the "damage" is already done.

 

Mat and Perrin's Old Blood is evidence that the memories of previous lives are already present, but so deeply buried in the subconscious that one is not typically aware of them. The taint attacks the conscious and subconscious barriers and defenses a person has against insanity, which are different for each person and manifest as different kinds of insanity. Rand's awareness of memories of his previous life would be a significant blow to his sanity because of the content of those memories, specifically, the details and emotional impacts of his failures. Therefore, the taint attacks and undermines the subconscious barriers preventing Rand's conscious awareness of the memories of previous live(s). This doesn't seem that speculative to me, or at least, the speculations at least have some kind of evidence to support each step. On the other hand, postulating a different cause that works in parallel with the taint to do something the taint should be able to do by itself, that seems speculative.

[Kelandon]

Bear in mind, too, that the taint had not progressed fully on basically any of the channelers so far mentioned. It's a progressive, rotting disease, not an instantaneous conversion.

 

I think this is incorrect. IIRC, the madness can take you at any time, in any form. It can be progressive OR instantaneous. It sure seemed to take Fedwyn instantly, he's fine when the attack on Cairhien starts, and a few hours later he's been reduced to a child-like state. He certainly showed no other signs he was slowly progressing towards this end. On the other side would be someone like, uh, I forget the guy's name who was convinced the Fades were following him. Something tells me had the taint not been cleansed, this probably would have gotten worse and worse as he descended into madness.

 

Not true, there were subtle hints all through tPoD of Fedwin starting to slip that direction.

 

Imerickson is still correct though, whatever the case may be with Morr. Flinn has shown no sign of madness and he has channelled the longest amongst all the Ashaman apart from Logain and Taim. In comparison, Torval mentionned an Ashaman who went mad after only 2 days.

I think some of the responses above may not totally understand the concept of a progressive disease. The fact that it proceeds at different rates in different individuals doesn't make it less progressive. Nor do rapid degenerations after prolonged periods of apparent good health. The point is more that it continues getting worse and worse over time, like Alzheimer's and unlike the common cold.

 

As for the rest of this, if it's just to say that the taint causes madness of various sorts that can also occur without the taint, and hearing voices from past lives is a type of madness that can occur without the taint, but it appears that Rand's hearing a voice from a past life occurred at least in part because of the taint, then yes, that all seems reasonably well established.

[Dream]

...

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

 

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

The Voice is a symptom of Rand's insanity. The Taint is at least partially responsible for the insanity. So Brandon and I agree. But you are confusing the issue of the Voice with the Memories. Throughout the book Rand has been remembering things without the Voice actively telling him. Most recently, Rand has all the memories and none of the Voice. The Voice != the Memories. It is a bit difficult to separate the two since as far as we know everyone who has past memories also heard a voice, but I think Rand is a clear example you can have one without the other (though having real memories would probably be a prerequisite for a "real voice"). So the Taint is partially responsible for the Voice, but not necessarily the memories.

 

 

 

...

Therefore, the taint attacks and undermines the subconscious barriers preventing Rand's conscious awareness of the memories of previous live(s). This doesn't seem that speculative to me, or at least, the speculations at least have some kind of evidence to support each step. On the other hand, postulating a different cause that works in parallel with the taint to do something the taint should be able to do by itself, that seems speculative.

We know the Taint causes madness. The exact mechanic of how this happens is not known. Any attempt to explain this is speculative. I understand your position, that since regaining past memories happens naturally, it doesn't have to be some super-ability of the Taint. Taint causes madness which can lead to past memories.

 

If remembering past lives did not occur naturally, i.e. our only scenario is Tainted-Rand, then it would be more likely that the Taint is the cause of the memories. But since it happens naturally, there is no need to assign this attribute to the Taint. It's possible that Rand was always meant to have these memories and it is not madness that can lead to past memories but past memories that can lead to madness.

 

Perhaps a better question would be, "Did the Wheel intend for Rand to get his past memories?" I say yes and offer the following as evidence.

 

1. Just before making the critical decision in VoG, Rand remembers everything. Not just about LTT, but EVERYTHING. Therefore, the Wheel can and will remind Rand of why he chooses to fight.

 

2. Post-VoG, the Wheel has clearly won a victory over the DO for Rand and his memories as LTT are complete. When the Wheel wins, Rand gains more memories.

 

3. One of the borderlander's test was to ensure that Rand has LTT memories. If not, they were to (try to) kill him. Rand without LTT memories is useless to the Wheel.

 

In general, now that Rand has regained all his LTT memories, everything's just peachy.

[Kahsm]

...

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

 

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

The Voice is a symptom of Rand's insanity. The Taint is at least partially responsible for the insanity. So Brandon and I agree. But you are confusing the issue of the Voice with the Memories. Throughout the book Rand has been remembering things without the Voice actively telling him. Most recently, Rand has all the memories and none of the Voice. The Voice != the Memories. It is a bit difficult to separate the two since as far as we know everyone who has past memories also heard a voice, but I think Rand is a clear example you can have one without the other (though having real memories would probably be a prerequisite for a "real voice"). So the Taint is partially responsible for the Voice, but not necessarily the memories.

 

 

 

...

Therefore, the taint attacks and undermines the subconscious barriers preventing Rand's conscious awareness of the memories of previous live(s). This doesn't seem that speculative to me, or at least, the speculations at least have some kind of evidence to support each step. On the other hand, postulating a different cause that works in parallel with the taint to do something the taint should be able to do by itself, that seems speculative.

We know the Taint causes madness. The exact mechanic of how this happens is not known. Any attempt to explain this is speculative. I understand your position, that since regaining past memories happens naturally, it doesn't have to be some super-ability of the Taint. Taint causes madness which can lead to past memories.

 

If remembering past lives did not occur naturally, i.e. our only scenario is Tainted-Rand, then it would be more likely that the Taint is the cause of the memories. But since it happens naturally, there is no need to assign this attribute to the Taint. It's possible that Rand was always meant to have these memories and it is not madness that can lead to past memories but past memories that can lead to madness.

 

Perhaps a better question would be, "Did the Wheel intend for Rand to get his past memories?" I say yes and offer the following as evidence.

 

1. Just before making the critical decision in VoG, Rand remembers everything. Not just about LTT, but EVERYTHING. Therefore, the Wheel can and will remind Rand of why he chooses to fight.

 

2. Post-VoG, the Wheel has clearly won a victory over the DO for Rand and his memories as LTT are complete. When the Wheel wins, Rand gains more memories.

 

3. One of the borderlander's test was to ensure that Rand has LTT memories. If not, they were to (try to) kill him. Rand without LTT memories is useless to the Wheel.

 

In general, now that Rand has regained all his LTT memories, everything's just peachy.

 

So the taint causes madness, hearing a voice is madness, therefore the taint must have caused the voice?

 

If you think of it as "smoking is known to cause cancer, I smoke, I have lung cancer, therefore the smoking caused it" I suppose it makes sense. Though if you had worked in a certain Japanese Nuclear Power Plant, you may have a pretty good reason to question the source. That's what's going on here, as Thrasymachus has pointed out, he has every reason in the world to manifest a second personality (that's what RJ called it, not just a voice) even without the taint.

 

Then again, Thrasymachus and I also tend to agree that the nature of Rand's so-called "insanity" just feels all wrong. It does not manifest in a potentially world-defacing-ly destructive way that we're led to believe it should. It's kinda like, "Smoking is known to cause cancer, I smoke, I have testicular cancer, therefore the smoking caused it". Well, obviously that's not true at all.

 

For some reason, Rand seems pretty damn resistant if not outright immune to the taint from the beginning. Unless we don't believe that the amount channeled has anything to do with how fast it progresses.

[Suttree]

Edit: Wrong thread, please delete.

[Dream]

So the taint causes madness, hearing a voice is madness, therefore the taint must have caused the voice?

 

If you think of it as "smoking is known to cause cancer, I smoke, I have lung cancer, therefore the smoking caused it" I suppose it makes sense. Though if you had worked in a certain Japanese Nuclear Power Plant, you may have a pretty good reason to question the source. That's what's going on here, as Thrasymachus has pointed out, he has every reason in the world to manifest a second personality (that's what RJ called it, not just a voice) even without the taint.

...

I think you've misunderstood my position. The Taint causes madness. Therefore the Taint was at least a contributing factor to Rand's insanity. How the insanity develops is specific to each individual. One of Rand's symptoms is the Voice. In this way, the Taint is responsible for the Voice because without the Taint there might not be madness and thus there might not be a Voice.

 

It is also my position that Rand would have regained his LTT memories without the Taint. So Rand might have transitioned to "Rand Sedai" without the Voice. I personally think he would have gone insane and created the Voice anyways but I have no doubt that the Taint contributed a lot to his insanity.

[Kahsm]

What other symptoms.

 

I think the memories caused the LTT personality as a coping mechanism until he realized what and who he truly was in VoG. Basically says so him self. "we always were the same" is pretty far from "I was f**king nuts!"

 

I'm up in the air as to whether the taint helped the memories or not, maybe it helped the voice, since we know other MCs have heard voices, but Rand was pretty far from insane. He delt with everything pretty damn rationally, including the voice. So what "other" symptoms are you referring to? Elayne has been more insane through her prego-ness than Rand has come close to. And if he's not insane, or has barely scratched the surface, given all his epic channeling, there's probably a reason.

[Thrasymachus]

The Voice, without the memories, is just a voice in his head. It wouldn't even be a "real" voice as Semirhage puts it. Now, I can certainly see Rand developing a split personality or hearing voices without the memories. As previously mentioned, he's under a lot of stress and a great deal of self-loathing. But add in the memories of his past life, with all of Lews Therin's guilt and self-loathing, and a personality split or madness is practically guaranteed. Yes, the Memories have been useful to Rand, in that his serendipitous access to them has let him scrape a victory by the skin of his teeth many times. But they've carried downsides with them too. They add to Rand's guilt and frustration and hopelessness. It was only after he learned to forgive himself and transcended the traumas that caused his personality split that they became true assets. And while we don't have any other examples of the taint causing the emergence of true memories of past lives in other male channelers, we do know that this particular type of mental disease occurs either naturally, or as a result of other kinds of Shadow manipulation.

 

And I do think Rand was bonkers, and in a sense, still is, and that before his revelation on Dragonmount, it was a pretty destructive kind of madness. He balefired an entire castle, basically a small town, out of existence. He abandoned an entire city to starvation. Then he went off in an attempt to balefire whole cities off the map. He was in a pretty dark spiral, and had been for a long time. Now, he's still crazy, at least by normal human standards. I just don't think he's all that normal a human being anymore, so normal human standards probably shouldn't apply.

 

The way I think the taint works wrt madness is that it attacks the weakest mental links in the strongest way possible. Progressive access to his past life memories, together with their full emotive impact, is the strongest way to undermine Rand's mental stability. It just so happens, though, that attacking Rand's mental health in this way gives him the opportunity to transcend those limitations, turning the attack into support. There would be no way for the taint to anticipate this, or even the Dark One if he possesses any way to control the taint, which has not been shown either. Adding Lews Therin's memories should have only added to Rand's guilt, sense of hopelessness and despair and frustration. That they didn't is kinda the whole story of the Dark Side so far: elaborate schemes and careful plots all subverted because of some stupid short-sight or the wonder-kids doing something unexpected.

[Suttree]

That's what's going on here, as Thrasymachus has pointed out, he has every reason in the world to manifest a second personality (that's what RJ called it, not just a voice) even without the taint.

 

Here is the quote...

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NY, NY - 7 January 2003 - David Funcke reporting

 

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

[Mr Ares]

...

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

 

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

The Voice is a symptom of Rand's insanity. The Taint is at least partially responsible for the insanity. So Brandon and I agree. But you are confusing the issue of the Voice with the Memories. Throughout the book Rand has been remembering things without the Voice actively telling him. Most recently, Rand has all the memories and none of the Voice. The Voice != the Memories. It is a bit difficult to separate the two since as far as we know everyone who has past memories also heard a voice, but I think Rand is a clear example you can have one without the other (though having real memories would probably be a prerequisite for a "real voice"). So the Taint is partially responsible for the Voice, but not necessarily the memories.

How can Rand be considered a clear example of being able to have either voice or memories without the other? Given that he has both. There's nothing clear about that. There is nothing to suggest you can have just one or the other. Rand is a clear example of how to get rid of the voice, perhaps, but that is not to say that voice and memories do not always appear hand in hand. The voice and the memories are not two separate issues. They are two aspects of the same issue.

 

 

 

...

Therefore, the taint attacks and undermines the subconscious barriers preventing Rand's conscious awareness of the memories of previous live(s). This doesn't seem that speculative to me, or at least, the speculations at least have some kind of evidence to support each step. On the other hand, postulating a different cause that works in parallel with the taint to do something the taint should be able to do by itself, that seems speculative.

We know the Taint causes madness. The exact mechanic of how this happens is not known. Any attempt to explain this is speculative. I understand your position, that since regaining past memories happens naturally, it doesn't have to be some super-ability of the Taint. Taint causes madness which can lead to past memories.

No, the taint causes madness which can manifest as memories and voices. They are not a consequence of the madness, they are a part of it.

 

Perhaps a better question would be, "Did the Wheel intend for Rand to get his past memories?" I say yes and offer the following as evidence.

 

1. Just before making the critical decision in VoG, Rand remembers everything. Not just about LTT, but EVERYTHING. Therefore, the Wheel can and will remind Rand of why he chooses to fight.

 

2. Post-VoG, the Wheel has clearly won a victory over the DO for Rand and his memories as LTT are complete. When the Wheel wins, Rand gains more memories.

 

3. One of the borderlander's test was to ensure that Rand has LTT memories. If not, they were to (try to) kill him. Rand without LTT memories is useless to the Wheel.

1. Just because Rand remembers everything, doesn't mean the Wheel is making him remember everything. Just because it happens doesn't mean the Wheel is causing it to happen.

3. Rand without memories is not uselss to the Wheel. He is merely less desirable.

[Dream]

What other symptoms.

 

I think the memories caused the LTT personality as a coping mechanism until he realized what and who he truly was in VoG. Basically says so him self. "we always were the same" is pretty far from "I was f**king nuts!"

 

I'm up in the air as to whether the taint helped the memories or not, maybe it helped the voice, since we know other MCs have heard voices, but Rand was pretty far from insane. He delt with everything pretty damn rationally, including the voice. So what "other" symptoms are you referring to? Elayne has been more insane through her prego-ness than Rand has come close to. And if he's not insane, or has barely scratched the surface, given all his epic channeling, there's probably a reason.

We usually get Rand from his own POV and everything seems reasonable there, or at least there's some cause for his behaviour.

 

But from the third-person perspective:

- Talks to himself out loud (without realising it sometimes).

- Severe anger management issues.

- Paranoia. He's even suspicious of Nynaeve and Tam.

- Laughs and cries uncontrollably and unexpectedly (he laughs when Semirhage says he's crazy).

- Suicidal tendencies. (Ilyena, my love.)

- Homicidal tendencies. Was about to slaughter the borderlander army.

- Loss of self-control. With the Power and earlier when he comes closes to breaking Taim's seal.

 

It's all a bit fuzzy of course, we almost always get the reason he acts the way he does and a lot can be blamed on his unique situation and on "LTT". But I'm sure those around him think he's bat-doo crazy.

 

 

 

...

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

 

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

The Voice is a symptom of Rand's insanity. The Taint is at least partially responsible for the insanity. So Brandon and I agree. But you are confusing the issue of the Voice with the Memories. Throughout the book Rand has been remembering things without the Voice actively telling him. Most recently, Rand has all the memories and none of the Voice. The Voice != the Memories. It is a bit difficult to separate the two since as far as we know everyone who has past memories also heard a voice, but I think Rand is a clear example you can have one without the other (though having real memories would probably be a prerequisite for a "real voice"). So the Taint is partially responsible for the Voice, but not necessarily the memories.

How can Rand be considered a clear example of being able to have either voice or memories without the other? Given that he has both. There's nothing clear about that. There is nothing to suggest you can have just one or the other. Rand is a clear example of how to get rid of the voice, perhaps, but that is not to say that voice and memories do not always appear hand in hand. The voice and the memories are not two separate issues. They are two aspects of the same issue.

I'm talking about post-VoG Rand. He has all the memories and not the Voice. Clearly memories != the Voice. Whether the Voice is always a consequence of the memories is another matter.

 

 

...

Therefore, the taint attacks and undermines the subconscious barriers preventing Rand's conscious awareness of the memories of previous live(s). This doesn't seem that speculative to me, or at least, the speculations at least have some kind of evidence to support each step. On the other hand, postulating a different cause that works in parallel with the taint to do something the taint should be able to do by itself, that seems speculative.

We know the Taint causes madness. The exact mechanic of how this happens is not known. Any attempt to explain this is speculative. I understand your position, that since regaining past memories happens naturally, it doesn't have to be some super-ability of the Taint. Taint causes madness which can lead to past memories.

No, the taint causes madness which can manifest as memories and voices. They are not a consequence of the madness, they are a part of it.

That's pretty much what I said.

 

 

Perhaps a better question would be, "Did the Wheel intend for Rand to get his past memories?" I say yes and offer the following as evidence.

 

1. Just before making the critical decision in VoG, Rand remembers everything. Not just about LTT, but EVERYTHING. Therefore, the Wheel can and will remind Rand of why he chooses to fight.

 

2. Post-VoG, the Wheel has clearly won a victory over the DO for Rand and his memories as LTT are complete. When the Wheel wins, Rand gains more memories.

 

3. One of the borderlander's test was to ensure that Rand has LTT memories. If not, they were to (try to) kill him. Rand without LTT memories is useless to the Wheel.

1. Just because Rand remembers everything, doesn't mean the Wheel is making him remember everything. Just because it happens doesn't mean the Wheel is causing it to happen.

3. Rand without memories is not uselss to the Wheel. He is merely less desirable.

1. You don't think it was the Wheel? Then what was it?

 

3. If Rand didn't answer correctly, they were to kill him. Apparently, a dead Rand would have been more desirable.

[Randommer]

Urm, just to weigh in lazily on the whole voice versus memories debate, the single best piece of evidence for them being separate phenomena is TFoH. Rand starts having LT's memories and very clearly thinking 'LT's' thoughts as his own way before the voice appears. Eventually he starts getting freaked out and going, 'I'm not Lews Therin!' and voila: voice.

[Kahsm]

Yeah, the memories broke his mind, and the second personality (it's not just a voice) was a coping mechanism to deal with unattributable memories. VoG showed him the whole picture and so he could reconcile the LTT memories with his own, since they are and always were the same person he accepted them and the other personality goes away.

 

 

While he saw all lives in VoG that does not mean he has all memories. He claims LTT titles, so he clearly identifies as LTT now. Plus we know the aiel ter'angreal don't let you directly remember everything, just vague ideas. Brigs is losing her's, and we know DF orders are shown then forgotten until they are triggered, lots of reasons to believe Rand walked away not with infinite knowledge, but just the understanding to truly accept the LTT memories he had gotten before VoG, as his own.

[Mr Ares]

...

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

 

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

The Voice is a symptom of Rand's insanity. The Taint is at least partially responsible for the insanity. So Brandon and I agree. But you are confusing the issue of the Voice with the Memories. Throughout the book Rand has been remembering things without the Voice actively telling him. Most recently, Rand has all the memories and none of the Voice. The Voice != the Memories. It is a bit difficult to separate the two since as far as we know everyone who has past memories also heard a voice, but I think Rand is a clear example you can have one without the other (though having real memories would probably be a prerequisite for a "real voice"). So the Taint is partially responsible for the Voice, but not necessarily the memories.

How can Rand be considered a clear example of being able to have either voice or memories without the other? Given that he has both. There's nothing clear about that. There is nothing to suggest you can have just one or the other. Rand is a clear example of how to get rid of the voice, perhaps, but that is not to say that voice and memories do not always appear hand in hand. The voice and the memories are not two separate issues. They are two aspects of the same issue.

I'm talking about post-VoG Rand. He has all the memories and not the Voice. Clearly memories != the Voice. Whether the Voice is always a consequence of the memories is another matter.

It doesn't have to be a matter of the one being a consequence of the other. They come together. Not separate. And both were assimilated into him during VoG. Both became his own, so even now the assertion of one without the other is dubious.

 

 

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Therefore, the taint attacks and undermines the subconscious barriers preventing Rand's conscious awareness of the memories of previous live(s). This doesn't seem that speculative to me, or at least, the speculations at least have some kind of evidence to support each step. On the other hand, postulating a different cause that works in parallel with the taint to do something the taint should be able to do by itself, that seems speculative.

We know the Taint causes madness. The exact mechanic of how this happens is not known. Any attempt to explain this is speculative. I understand your position, that since regaining past memories happens naturally, it doesn't have to be some super-ability of the Taint. Taint causes madness which can lead to past memories.

No, the taint causes madness which can manifest as memories and voices. They are not a consequence of the madness, they are a part of it.

That's pretty much what I said.

Not quite.

 

 

Perhaps a better question would be, "Did the Wheel intend for Rand to get his past memories?" I say yes and offer the following as evidence.

 

1. Just before making the critical decision in VoG, Rand remembers everything. Not just about LTT, but EVERYTHING. Therefore, the Wheel can and will remind Rand of why he chooses to fight.

 

2. Post-VoG, the Wheel has clearly won a victory over the DO for Rand and his memories as LTT are complete. When the Wheel wins, Rand gains more memories.

 

3. One of the borderlander's test was to ensure that Rand has LTT memories. If not, they were to (try to) kill him. Rand without LTT memories is useless to the Wheel.

1. Just because Rand remembers everything, doesn't mean the Wheel is making him remember everything. Just because it happens doesn't mean the Wheel is causing it to happen.

3. Rand without memories is not uselss to the Wheel. He is merely less desirable.

1. You don't think it was the Wheel? Then what was it?

 

3. If Rand didn't answer correctly, they were to kill him. Apparently, a dead Rand would have been more desirable.

Same thing that caused the memories in the first place. His madness manifested as a voice and memories. His "cure", the assimilation of voice and memories, gave him a flash of memories that subsequently deisappeared. If the Wheel acted to give him memories, either in the first place or VoG, it did so through the medium of insanity. And it is arguable if the Wheel taking deliberate action is necessary at all, as all that is required is the taint and being a channeler he has that regardless of what the Wheel does. And dead Rand might be more desirable than Dark Rand, but that doesn't really affect my point.

 

Urm, just to weigh in lazily on the whole voice versus memories debate, the single best piece of evidence for them being separate phenomena is TFoH. Rand starts having LT's memories and very clearly thinking 'LT's' thoughts as his own way before the voice appears. Eventually he starts getting freaked out and going, 'I'm not Lews Therin!' and voila: voice.

The first instances of memory and voice are TSR, chapters 9 and 10 respectively. Mere minutes apart is not "way before".

[damandred]

Just a thought haven't read through the thread so it might of been said, if so soz!

Anyway maybe Rands ta'vereness influenced the way the taint effected Rand as soon as he started channelling, madness was inevitable so why not something that's helpful.

Ta'veren get bits of luck and help before they realise they need it, maybe the wheel foresaw VoG and knowing it needed zen Rand to win played the long game and used the DO's own taint against him.

 

Just my penny's worth.

[Kelandon]

I'm at the beginning of ACoS in my re-read, and my impression is that right after Dumai's Wells, Rand acts pretty darn nuts. He's talking to himself, visibly hearing voices, experiencing violent mood swings, and a whole host of other things that make everyone around him worry that he's lost it already. I had forgotten how deep he'd gotten into emotional instability by this point.

 

I don't know that there's any reason to distinguish between the life events that would push him to this point and the taint. Surely both contributed. I think that's why VoG was special; it not only represented a moment of hitting bottom and turning his life around in the everyday sense, but it also represented doing so in a fantasy sense (somehow fighting off the taint).

[Randommer]

Urm, just to weigh in lazily on the whole voice versus memories debate, the single best piece of evidence for them being separate phenomena is TFoH. Rand starts having LT's memories and very clearly thinking 'LT's' thoughts as his own way before the voice appears. Eventually he starts getting freaked out and going, 'I'm not Lews Therin!' and voila: voice.

The first instances of memory and voice are TSR, chapters 9 and 10 respectively. Mere minutes apart is not "way before".

Nope. In TSR Rand speaks briefly as Lews Therin and has one or two vague memories. That's not the same thing at all as the voice. If you remember, when the voice eventually does appear, Rand makes a big deal about it when it becomes aware of his surroundings for the first time and starts sort of communicating with Rand's thoughts when he's trapped in the box; before that the voice was just random and made no sense. But I'm rereading TFoH atm, and when Rand loses concentration he has LT's thoughts in perfect conjunction with his own, not as a voice at all.

[Mr Ares]

Urm, just to weigh in lazily on the whole voice versus memories debate, the single best piece of evidence for them being separate phenomena is TFoH. Rand starts having LT's memories and very clearly thinking 'LT's' thoughts as his own way before the voice appears. Eventually he starts getting freaked out and going, 'I'm not Lews Therin!' and voila: voice.

The first instances of memory and voice are TSR, chapters 9 and 10 respectively. Mere minutes apart is not "way before".

Nope. In TSR Rand speaks briefly as Lews Therin and has one or two vague memories. That's not the same thing at all as the voice. If you remember, when the voice eventually does appear, Rand makes a big deal about it when it becomes aware of his surroundings for the first time and starts sort of communicating with Rand's thoughts when he's trapped in the box; before that the voice was just random and made no sense. But I'm rereading TFoH atm, and when Rand loses concentration he has LT's thoughts in perfect conjunction with his own, not as a voice at all.

No. In TSR 10, Rand hears a voice in his head that is not his. It is the first manifestation of the voice.

[Kahsm]

It's pretty hard to tell where the memories start, since we only know for certain they are LTT memories when LTT starts to voice them. For all we know Rand's first channeling to restore Bella was a LTT thing. Just because Rand is a sparker who would have started channeling eventually anyway, doesn't mean he didn't have "help" in WHAT he channeled. There's also the speed at which he learns the sword, which LTT was good at, and that was early TGH. I'm sure there's more stuff that could be of-old.

[Dream]

...

And it is arguable if the Wheel taking deliberate action is necessary at all, as all that is required is the taint and being a channeler he has that regardless of what the Wheel does.

We don't know if insanity is even required to gain past memories. It could be the other way around and past life memories is what causes insanity. That actually makes more sense. Getting memories that you know you don't know is enough to wonder if there's someone else inside your head.

 

Also, you are ignoring the fact that Rand is the most powerful Ta'veren in history and the Wheel weaves as the wheel wills. The Pattern doesn't happen by accident. It happens by design.

 

 

And dead Rand might be more desirable than Dark Rand, but that doesn't really affect my point.

Not only is dead Rand more desirable than Dark Rand, dead Rand is more desirable than Good Rand who can't answer the question.

 

Here's the foretelling (ToM, Ch. 51):

"I see him before you. Him, the one who lives many lives, the one who gives deaths, the one who raises mountains. He will break what he must break, but first he stands here, before our king. You will bloody him! Measure his restraint. He speaks! How was the fallen slain? Tellindal Tirraso, murdered by his hand, the darkness that came the day after the light. You must ask, and you must know your fate. If he cannot answer then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I see. And I weep."

 

So even if Rand does show restraint, if he can't answer the question then he must die.

 

Also, if the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, then Rand will have the memories. It doesn't need the Dark One's help (the Taint). This completely removes the Taint from the equation.

[mandersen]

It seems there are several questions, some we have answers to, others maybe not.

 

1. Is rand insane? yes, at least partially. if nothing else we have semirhage's naming the voice a symptom of madness.

2. Is it taint or stress caused (as verin somewhat suggests in tGS to Mat)? we don't know. we do know that the taint causes madness, but others don't show signs of it yet and have been challenging as long or longer (Logain, for example). So it's possible, if not probable, that all Rand's insanity is naturally come by. it's probably both, IMO.

3. Is the voice a sign of madness? yes. once again we're believing semi.

4. Are the memories a result of the madness? we don't know. you CAN'T have LTT's voice without the memories, but you CAN have the memories without the voice. i think some are confusing that point when they say the voice and memories go hand in hand. I have no hard evidence for this, but as previous post have mentioned, we have rand doing things he's never done before and learning way more quickly than what would normally be possible well before the voice is manifested. And we have post VoG.

5. Did the memories cause the voice? we don't know, but it's an interesting theory. all these memories showing up with no source make him create a separate personality inside his head to take ownership of them. makes sense to me.

 

IMO he's mad from a combination of stressors AND the taint, which, among some rage and self-control issues, has made him imagine LLT in his head to give voice to the memories HE WOULD'VE HAD EVEN WITHOUT THE MADNESS, regardless of the source.

[Mr Ares]

...

And it is arguable if the Wheel taking deliberate action is necessary at all, as all that is required is the taint and being a channeler he has that regardless of what the Wheel does.

We don't know if insanity is even required to gain past memories. It could be the other way around and past life memories is what causes insanity. That actually makes more sense. Getting memories that you know you don't know is enough to wonder if there's someone else inside your head.

Both are wrong. The madness didn't cause him to get memories, nor did getting memories cause him to go mad. The memories are the madness. A man should not have the memories and voice of his past life in his head. If he does, something is wrong.

 

And dead Rand might be more desirable than Dark Rand, but that doesn't really affect my point.

Not only is dead Rand more desirable than Dark Rand, dead Rand is more desirable than Good Rand who can't answer the question.

So?

 

Also, if the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, then Rand will have the memories. It doesn't need the Dark One's help (the Taint). This completely removes the Taint from the equation.

But it doesn't remove insanity. Removing the taint doesn't mean Rand won't go insane, it just means you have to push him a bit further.

 

 

4. Are the memories a result of the madness?

Not result, symptom. It's not a case of one causing the other, it is a case of one being the manifestation of the other.

we don't know. you CAN'T have LTT's voice without the memories, but you CAN have the memories without the voice.

Prove it.

i think some are confusing that point when they say the voice and memories go hand in hand. I have no hard evidence for this, but as previous post have mentioned, we have rand doing things he's never done before and learning way more quickly than what would normally be possible well before the voice is manifested. And we have post VoG.

Post VoG we do not have just Rand with LTT gone. We have two voices merged into one, and two sets of memories merged into one. So we do not, nor have we ever, had just memories, not voice. As for learning more quickly than would normally be possible, what do you base that on? Learning how to channel can progress very quickly, and stronger channelers usually seem to pick things up faster than weaker ones. So one would expect Rand's learning to go very quickly. As for learning other things, such as the sword - firstly, we see Rand train intensely, and we see him thrown into the deep end with things and pick them up quickly because he had to. Secondly, we see Egwene learn things very quickly - it takes her just a couple of years to go from Inkeeper's daughter to the best candidate for the Amyrlin Seat and an amazing Dreamwalker. Yes, it must be as a result of her LTT memories. Alternatively, RJ just had people learn things really quickly, as quickly as he could get away with, simply as a result of narrative convenience. So no, we do not have Rand learning especially quickly when compared to everyone else. We do not have to rely on LTT memories for this stuff. He picked up the sword quickly despite no LTT memories, not because of of them.

5. Did the memories cause the voice?

Doubtful. They happened too close together. To go from neither to both within minutes suggests that they arrived hand in hand, not that he needed one to cope with the other. If that was the case you would surely expect there to be a longer gap between them, to show that he cannot cope.