Rand crazy because

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mat's knowledge of the Old Tongue is tough to explain. My feeling is that it is one of the things would have been one way if the series were shorter and became something else as the series grew.

 

Rand's knowledge of the Heroes could be explained by the Heroes being legendary. Those legends would have been passed down for centuries. Rand isn't the only one to recognize them. Even the girls know Birgitte on sight and infer Gaidal from the shadow that they see. Their names and descriptions seem to have been widely known.

[Narg]

Mats knowledge may be from the finns, the finns from rhuidean grant three requests (not questions) at price that must be set before hand (otherwise its death) he recieved foxhead medailion, spearthing, and knowledge. i dont remeber what he said but if he asked a request (other than for his answers) these three items must have helped him to acheive whatever he asked for.

[Ishydin]

Mats knowledge may be from the finns' date=' the finns from rhuidean grant three requests (not questions) at price that must be set before hand (otherwise its death) he recieved foxhead medailion, spearthing, and knowledge. i dont remeber what he said but if he asked a request (other than for his answers) these three items must have helped him to acheive whatever he asked for.[/quote']

 

he was spurting out the old tongue as early as the battle against the trollocs in TEoTW. The Finns simply made him fluent in the old tongue, becaue when he started ranting at them he copmlained about not knowing the meaning of all these things coming out of his mouth.

[Mr Ares]

The "trilogy" was never written.

 

Sometime after the first book, Jordan and Tor decided to expand the series. By the time the third volume was done, Jordan was estimating it would run to five or six volumes. When Six was done he thought it might take two more.

 

And, so it has gone.

 

When LTT was introduced as the ghost in Rand's head, Jordan believed he'd only be around for a volume or two, and nobody would have time to look into the particulars of how his character was written. Like many things throughout the series, all of that changed as the series expanded.

 

You don't think that he might have at least a vague idea of what this voice in Rand's head is? Even if he hasn't worked out all the details yet, or if plans change he should at least be able to come with a vague explanation.

 

Rand's knowledge of the Heroes could be explained by the Heroes being legendary. Those legends would have been passed down for centuries. Rand isn't the only one to recognize them. Even the girls know Birgitte on sight and infer Gaidal from the shadow that they see. Their names and descriptions seem to have been widely known.

 

More than that - Rand picks up many names for each hero. Possibly this is related to the Horn and how they are spun out - people know instinctively who these people are, but that only applies to events at Falme. The girls recognising Birgitte is likely just how you say.

[Thorum]

Isn't it just because their 'soles' know and recognise each other?

[Bob T Dwarf]

As of Falme, LTT hadn't manifested yet... at least identifiably. There are indications, then and earlier, that some of his knowledge may have been leaking through to Rand. The multiple names for each of the Heroes may be one of those memories.

 

Or, it could simply be that, like Birgitte, no matter what name they have in a given lifetime they always have some uniquely identifying traits. Birgitte, for instance, seems to always be blonde and braided, wear pants and boots, carry a bow, and never miss.

 

If anyone who had heard the legends about any of them were to encounter him or her as a Hero Called by The Horn, he might recognize them by many of their names.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I tend to think of Rand's recognition of the others at Falme as evidence that the Dragon is linked to the Wheel in the same way they are. The Horn was never blown in Lews Therin Telamon's life, so he would have no memory of the Heroes of the Horn as such. Admittedly, some of them, at least, knew him and lived in his life, but Lews Therin would remember them by the names they bore in that life, not their iconic Hero names. And that would not apply to all of them, since all of them weren't around in his lifetime. The "remembering many names" appplied to all of them.

 

He knew their faces, knew their names. but he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were.

 

(Rand's POV, The Great Hunt, chapter 47 The Grave is No Bar to My Call)

 

Clearly, that refers to more than one lifetime's worth of memories, so it is not just leakage from Lews Therin.

[Chapmann]

And there's no evidence against the other three(Mat, Hurin and Perrin) hearing all those names also.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And there's no evidence against the other three(Mat, Hurin and Perrin) hearing all those names also.

 

Well ... there's no evidence for it either ... and given that Min didn't see/hear Birgitte's other names either when she saw her lighting the Seanchan ships afire, or when she viewed her later in Caemlyn, it doesn't seem likely that anyone who sees the Heroes sees all their names. So, it is very unlikely that Hurin saw/heard them, since he at least is definitely not tied to the Pattern. If all three ta'veren heard all the names, it would seem to indicate that they too are tied to the Pattern. The tidbits we have from Mat's flashbacks don't seem to indicate that though.

 

Clearly there is some special relationship between the Dragon and the Heroes. Even though Mat is the one who blew the Horn, the Heroes all but ignored him when they showed up. Most everything was addressed to Rand, the others only got incidental remarks.

[Cybertrolloc]

Off the top of my head, I'd think because Rand is a Horn hero as well. Not sure if the dragon soul hung out in TaR waiting for Rand to be born or something else was involved because of the manner of LTT's death at Dragonmount (where Rand was born).

 

Doesn't seem to be much in the books about it at least that we can call reliable.

 

On topic: Rand crazy because...he read the script ;)

[V1zharan]

Ok, for a sec I'm jumping back to the taint affecting him...I personally don't believe the taint is in ANY way related to Lews Therin, and I don't even think it affects his sickness that much when he seizes saidin. As far as getting dizzy seizing saidin, I think of that as a side effect of having two non-healing, tainted/evil wounds in his side. I have always seen Lews Therin being in his head as a sort of link to a dead mind. As far as people saying the weaves don't matter, what about the fight against the trollocs at the manor house, not only did he know the deathgate weave, blossom of fire weave, and the fire arrow thing(can't remember the name of that weave), but he knew their NAMES as well. I am aware people figure out weaves for themselves, but they don't automatically know the names for the weaves. Also with the fire arrow weave, Lews Therin was telling him to bring his hands up, when you learn weaves on your own, you make the gesture and there is the weave, but Lews Therin was telling him to put his hands up, Rand didn't just throw his hands up and shoot fire. So I see it as a link between their minds. Rand can sort of close of that link when he wants to, pushing Lews Therin to the back of his head, kind of like Perrin can with the wolves, the wolves can still try to talk to Perrin, hence the itching in the back of his mind when he blocks them out, so in the same way Rand can't completely close off that link, hence the buzz that Rand always says is there when he pushes Lews Therin away. I do see your point about it being an outlet for emotions he won't let himself feel, but that in no way explains his memories or any of the other innate knowledge he has. Also, one strong piece of evidence...why do people call him Lews Therin if it is simply a personality made up by his mind to go with the memories and for an outlet of emotions. I can see why the Chosen would, they would want to put him off-balance as much as they can, but the heroes of the horn would have no reason to want him off-balance.

As far as Mat and his memories are concerned, I'm not sure what that is or how to explain it. Spouting the Old Tongue early on indicates that it's innate rather than given by the finns, so I guess the only way I can try to reason that out is the finns kinda broke down the barrier between him and his past lives. Although you could also see it as two separate things, the finns gave him the memories, while he knows the old tongue from having Manetheren's blood running through him like Moraine used to say.

 

~V1zharan~

[chemteach1977]

I think most people agree that the channeling sickness that Rand experiences is related to crossing balefire streams with Moridin in SL. Moridin seems to experience something similar when Rand sees him through their mental connection.

 

Also, one strong piece of evidence...why do people call him Lews Therin if it is simply a personality made up by his mind to go with the memories and for an outlet of emotions.

 

Rand is LTT reborn. The forsaken see him as the same person. In my oppinion that makes it harder to explain how LTT's voice is in Rand's head. If Rand is LTT reborn, how does LTT still exist as a separate entity to speak with him?

Although you could also see it as two separate things, the finns gave him the memories, while he knows the old tongue from having Manetheren's blood running through him like Moraine used to say.

 

I think you are dead on there. The pre-finn flashes of old tongue are the result of his "old blood" probably from his past lives. The memories given him by the Finn were memories they collected from men after the men had visited Finnland. That is why they memories involve so many adventures and battles. Takes someone that is pretty brave, stupid, or both to want to visit Finnland

[V1zharan]

I didn't say that I believed his speaking in the Old Tongue and memories are separate, I simply threw it out there as another explanation, I didn't really intend for it to be taken as what I believe.

 

~V1zharan~

[Chapmann]

Mat:

 

Well he starts speaking the Old Tongue much earlier than Rhuidean. Before Rhuidean he only speaks sentences in the the Old Tongue unknowingly.

While in Tar Valon he even has a memory(or rather an experience) of a battle as a Manetheren Lord or King.

These things we can contribute to the Old Blood. We don't know if it is one of Mat's past lifes he remembers this from or just a result of the strong blood in the Two Rivers.

 

He then recieves memories from several men(probably not his past lives) who has been in Finnland after his trip there in Rhuidean. At first he fights them but later accepts them.

He then knows the Old Tongue but speaks it with several different dialect as Birgitte points out.

So the full understanding of the Old Tongue he has is derived from those memories.

 

Rand:

 

In TSR Rand starts hearing Lews Therin in his head. He starts recieving memories from the Age of Legends from Rand's souls last life.

In the Age of Legends they classified people with voices in their head crazy wether or not they had a real voice or a created voice in their head. Grandael was an expert on this as Semirhage points out. I don't see her lying about it. The impression I get from the conversation with Semirhage is that it was a pretty "common" problem in the Age of Legends that people started to hear voices of their past lives.

 

I see Rand as crazy because he has a voice in his head. There a many different levels of craziness and all aren't as severe as others.

 

The cause for this probably is the Taint. It isn't the only cause for this sort of madness but in Rand's case it is. We don't know if the voice is a personality the memories has created in Rand's mind or if it really is the pesonality of Lews Therin. I rather thinks it's the real Lews Therin as most things point to it.

 

There's some similarities between Mat and Rand's cases but we can't be sure that they are connected. As I see it, Mat's pre-Rhuidean memory/memories is a result of the Old Blood which the taint of Shadar Logoth amplified somehow while Rand's memories is from his past life, culminating in the voice of Lews Therin, which is a result of the Taint(which tears down borders).

[stoneface]

I probably missed something earlier (I recall but cannot find offhand Rand wondering "where did that thought come from"), but the first reference I find of LTT speaking is in tFoH, end of Ch 2 (Rhuidean), in which a well-formed thought about Ilyena comes into his mind, backed by memories of Ilyena's face. Rand has been learning from Asmodean, and has been channeling a lot; he decides that the memory of Ilyena is imaginary and an indication of madness. I know that Lanfear had already mentioned Ilyena, possibly by name(?). Exposure to taint and LTT's manifestation are connected. Rand's exposure to taint while cleansing Saidin was huge, and one effect is that LTT can gain control.

 

So, yes, LTT is "real" in that he is a personality and memories from a previous birth of the Dragon, and he is a distinct personality due to madness from the taint. Mat, Birgitte, Nynaeve, etc. can have memories come through from previous lives, but only memories rather than multiple personalities because they are not insane. Rand, on the other hand, is barely functional and seriously impaired due to his insanity (LTT's threatened suicide at the manor, and the fumble between Rand and LTT for the Source on encountering Semirhage, for example). The dizziness, etc., I am not sure about; there are good arguments about the crossed balefire streams, and good arguments about a residual effect of the taint. don't think that the dizziness has anything to do with the two wounds in his side.

 

And yeah, I would assume that the Dragon is bound to the Horn; I agree with the previous post that LTT is not connected to Rand remembering all the names.