Seanchan "attack" on the White Tower?

[DemandredFO]

CrazyMike before you say point the proof that Egwene is a sparker it is in Eye of the World I forget exactly where but I believe Moraine says that Egwene will DIE if she does not go to the WT

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not to mention the numerous other times in the books that Elayne, Aviendha, Nynaeve, and Egwene are all described as having the spark.

[loki redfern]

I am pretty sure the ability to channel is genetic.

 

Why does emond's field have so many sparkers? Because of the old blood.

 

It is definitely genetics, if you don't believe, then send a letter to RJ himself and ask. I bet he will say it is genetics.

yes this is true but it also depends on the soul as well. think of as a 'kinda' digenetic trait, and the other gene being represented by the soul.channeling genetic bodies seem always to get a soul able to channel. however if the soul is always able to channel, no matter what body,whether it is reborn or brought back by the DO into a non channeling body or in the well known case of os'angar or whichever, into a body of a diffent sex meant to weild a different half of the power, or not at all. err hope that all makes sence

[EternalDragon]

OK, I know this isn't connected to the current rant, but the whole 'raven flying by without pause' think kinda discurages the idea of a direct assault by the Seanchan. This is a wild stab, but I'm guessing that just something the Seanchan do, like an alliance or troop movement will destabalize the WT and allow Egwene to take control, get rid of some of the Red of Black Ajah, and stuff like that.

[CrazyMike]

DemandredFO

 

You know what,,, I disagree with the assesment the discription of Sparkers and Learners given here earlier,,, the way I see it is :

(1) Sparkers are the ones who start channelling on their own without anyone teaching them how to reach the source, like Rand

(2) Learners are the ones that are tested and taught how to reach the source, like Egwene

 

Egwene did not start channeling on her own, Moraine tested her and then began teaching her,,, I believe Moraine does say that it is a good thing that Egwene came along because she was close to sparking when Moraine tested her,,, but point of order,,, she did not spark she was tested and taught

[CrazyMike]

I also do not call it a NO HITTER in baseball when a batter hits a grounder to the 3rd baseman and gets thrown out at 1st,,, I mean dag gum it ,,, he got a hit , he might not have gotten a run but he got a hit,,, in the old days a NO HITTER meant a NO HITTER

[RobertAlexWillis]

It is definitely genetics, if you don't believe, then send a letter to RJ himself and ask. I bet he will say it is genetics.

 

Actually, he explained it in the blog:

 

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the “present day†sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

from: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=25

[Trib4l]

Exactly - it's a combination of both body and soul. We see that through the transmigrations that take place with the Forsaken.

 

We know they can channel, and we know the bodies in which they were placed after death were capable of channeling genetically. However, we see that male forsaken recycled into a female body still channels saidin - therefor while the body is genetically capable, the soul determines which half of the OP is accessible to the channeler.

 

I am really tired of having to post this, as I'm sure others are - any way we could get this information stickied? Is this in the WOT-encyclopedia?

[Luckers]

OK, I know this isn't connected to the current rant, but the whole 'raven flying by without pause' think kinda discurages the idea of a direct assault by the Seanchan. This is a wild stab, but I'm guessing that just something the Seanchan do, like an alliance or troop movement will destabalize the WT and allow Egwene to take control, get rid of some of the Red of Black Ajah, and stuff like that.

 

No, we know that a to'raken assault against the tower has been planned, and is, apparently, about to be instigated.

 

You know what,,, I disagree with the assesment the discription of Sparkers and Learners given here earlier

 

Disagree all you want, you are wrong. Sparkers are inherently different the way the ability asserts itself. They are described, even if they were guided by another in their initial touching, as having the spark.

[cloglord]

It seems to me that the dream that Egwene has about the lamp should not be taken out of the context of her other dream about the Seanchan woman.

 

I will paraphrase, Egwene is engaged in a very difficult climb when suddenly her foothold falls out from under her. She feels hopeless to make it to the broken path and her arms are too weak to pull herself up only to hold on, meanwhile her handhold is causing her pain as if she were holding herself on a knife. Suddenly a Seanchan woman appears with a wavering face and a rock-solid sword maneuvering as well as if she were walking down stairs. She says to Egewene, "We can reach the top together."

 

What do we know? Well when Egwene wakes from this dream she thinks to herself that for the first time she knew exactly what her dream meant. Since she immeadiately asks herself why she would dream of a seanchan woman helping her and then a seanchan attack on the tower, we should assume that she only knows the meaning of the second dream and not the first. Egwene knows, and we through her POV know, that the White Tower will be attacked. Notice she thinks to herself that the White Tower will be attacked, not that Tar Valon will be attacked.

 

What can we interpret from the lamp dream? The argument has been made that a steady clear flame represents a united tower, but isn't the symbol for the Amrylin a white flame? If you recall Egwene thinks of the cliff she is climbing as white polished stone and as soon as she thinks of it as a spire she reaches it's circular top. It seems to me more likely that the spire she is climbing is the tower, and that the lamp represents aes sedai, and the white flame represents the amrylin. Of course this is all conjecture.

 

Next we see two ravens, black as night, streak across the spiretop, strike the lamp and fly on without pause. We could say that the ravens represent the DO instead of the seanchan, except that Egwene seems to know exactly what this dream means, and she does not think to herself that the DO is about to attack the tower. The fact that Egwene fingers the Seanchan as the perpetrators of this attack seems to preclude the possibility of even one of the ravens representing the DO, unless Egwene is mistaken about it being the first dream that she completely understood. Further, there are 2 ravens. If we assume from the above argument that both ravens are indeed Seanchan, it would seem to suggest that there will be two attacks on the tower, nearly simultaneous to each other. Otherwise why would there be two ravens instead of just one?

 

Further it is unlikely that the attack/s are/were intended as an occupation force. The dream says that the ravens flew on, "Without so much as a pause." Not with "A small pause," or "After landing." The ravens hit and fly on. This would seem to say that there will not be a protracted battle, or occupation.

 

Lastly, the lamp spins from the impact and flings off droplets of oil, some of which burn in midair, and some which fall and burn independantly of the lamp, and the lamp continued to wobble. From the last part of Egwene's interpretation we know that the seanchan attack will shake the aes sedai to their core AND threaten the tower itself. This seems to explain the droplets of oil flung from the lamp, (shaken aes sedai) and the danger to the tower, (The still wobbling lamp.)

 

To conclude, we can only reasonably assume a few things for sure about the lamp dream. First, that it represents an attack by the seanchan and only the seanchan as per Egwene's interpretation of the dream. Second, that there will be not one but 2 attacks nearly simultaneous to each other by the seanchan. Third, the assault will be short. Fourth, it will shake the tower to its core.

 

What can we interpret from the Seanchan sword woman dream? Even less. We know that Egwene will be climbing a difficult and treacherous path, but it could be said that she has been doing this for several books now. Second, that path drops out from under her leaving her helpless. This may have happened if you count her kidnapping by Elaida, or it may not considering that she has not been entirely helpless while imprisoned. Third, an unknown seanchan woman with a wavering face and an unwavering sword who seems to have no difficulty getting around offers a hand saying, "we can reach the top together."

 

This third point needs to be broken down further. First, we know that Egwene's would be rescuer is a woman, but a woman with an identity crisis. It would seem that her role as a soldier is not in doubt however, as the sword "seems solid as stone." This woman is enegmatic however, since she could be representitive of the seanchan as a whole or an individual. Earlier representations of this woman as Tuon fail to satisfy as Tuon no longer has an identity crisis now that she has removed the view, and has never to our knowledge wielded a sword. Perhaps it is representative of the seanchan army, or maybe it is not, I guess we will have to RAFO.

 

The thing about this woman that really interests me is her ability to clamber down the sheer sides of the cliff as if there are stairs. This suggest to me that the Seanchan woman is in her element entirely. Given Egwene's helplessness, and the seanchan woman's ease of movement it suggests to me that this dream represents Egwene falling again into the hands of the Seanchan.

 

The last thing to notice about this dream is that the seanchan woman holds out her hand to help, but says, "We can reach the top together." The thing that struck me about this is that it almost implies that the seanchan woman can not reach the top without Egwene. If this is true it would suggest that a cooperative effort between that Seanchan woman and Egwene is nessecary for either of them to succeed, a fact that apparently the Seanchan woman recognizes, because she comes to Egwene to offer aid.

 

To summarize this Seanchan woman dream, we do not know definitely who the woman is but she is in someway related to the seanchan. She can maneuver easily where Egwene can not, and she very likely needs Egwene to accomplish her goal, even if her situation is not quite as dire as Egwene's

 

 

So, if you made it this far, my theory is this. The Seanchan make a two pronged lightning strike at the White Tower, one is a diversion to let the other accomplish its goal. Since it is not a prolonged attack, it seems likely that the objective is either the kidnapping of the amrylin, or the forced taking of an oath of fealty that would be binding by the 3 oaths. If Elaida was forced to do either it would shake the tower to its core. However, I think that she would die before doing either. This would leave Egwene's plans in shambles, and leaving her hanging from the proverbial cliff, since no matter how much Silvania respects her and the novices love her they would have little sway over the seanchan. Once the Seanchan heard of the rebel Amrylin being held within the tower, I believe that they, (the mystery seanchan woman) would offer her the same choice, and since she has not sworn on the oath rod, she would be free to take an oath of fealty to the seanchan and then break it upon their nearly immeadiate departure. However, having one Amrylin killed and another swearing to the seanchan, no matter how little she meant it, would leave the tower pretty wobbly. The mystery seanchan woman would have "reached the top." by securing the supposedly unbreakable oath of fealty from the amrylin seat, and Egwene would have been rescued from her predicament by a seanchan woman, leaving the tower wobbling and spitting off little oil droplets. I think its a pretty neatly wrapped little package don't you?

[DemandredFO]

cloglord, I have to disagree with you and agree with Luckers' extrapolation of events. I think you are taking some things to literally, I maybe wrong but I think the ravens represent the Seanchen as whole. If you're right then I think one raven represents the Demane and the other represents the soldiers. The ravens flying on without a pause, I think means that they will succeed without loss. By one of the oaths AS can only attack shadowspawn or if they or their warder is in peril and they only want to leash the AS, not kill them. second, I don't think the Seanchen would be satisfyed or even demand an oath from Aes Sedai. The Seanchen see them as Marath Demane, in need of a leash and therefore would seek to leash every single channeler in the tower and city. Third, I believe the woman with the wavering face and rock solid sword is a representation of the Seanchan led by Tuon that will make the occupying Seanchan leave the WT and Tar Valon.

[algspkr]

You know what,,, I disagree with the assesment the discription of Sparkers and Learners given here earlier,,, the way I see it is :

(1) Sparkers are the ones who start channelling on their own without anyone teaching them how to reach the source, like Rand

(2) Learners are the ones that are tested and taught how to reach the source, like Egwene

 

Egwene did not start channeling on her own, Moraine tested her and then began teaching her,,, I believe Moraine does say that it is a good thing that Egwene came along because she was close to sparking when Moraine tested her,,, but point of order,,, she did not spark she was tested and taught

 

1. Sparkers, these people channell wheather they are trained or not. Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are all in this catagory. None of them needed training to touch the source, but due to Nynaeve's lack of training she had issues when her training started.

2. Learners, these people must be trained to channell, wheather they can train themselves out of a book or something I do not know, but if they do not try to channell, they never will.

 

In the Seanchan homeland sul'dam, and domenea visit every town and village every year. The put an a'dom around every girl's neck and if they can sence them they become domenea. Then the girls who passed that test are made to wear the bracelet, any who can sence the domenea are trained to be sul'dam.

 

All girls, including sul'dam are test until they are twenty-five. After years of experience with the a'dom, I would guess 15-25 years sul'dam approach something like the spark, and can be held with an a'dom. I believe that forkroot would effect anyone that can be held by an a'dam, but there is no direct evidence to the fact.

[Luckers]

Demandred pretty much got everything, though i might add that the oath against violence can be overcome by intentionally placing oneself in the path of violence. Theoretically the Aes Sedai could assault the Tower, and in that assault become free to kill because of the resipricatory danger. The fact that the endgame intent is leashing seems unlikely to hold them, to my mind.

 

Myself, i think the ravens flying on without pausing indicateds that indeed they will not suffer and causulties in the initial assault. Indeed i believe it will be successful in catching the Aes Sedai unaware, and leashing them before any effective resistance can be mounted. Egwene and Silviana, realising defeat is at hand, flee to the Rebels to mount the counter-attack.

[Luckers]

Actually wait... something just occured to me. Plausibly i could see the Seanchan only leashing Aes Sedai, and then flying straight on... indeed, given the small numbers of their force, it may even make sense. It would change things, lessen the timeline requiring Tuon not to have known yet if the assault was a success, and the Trolloc invasion would have to happen sooner, which i have a hard time reconciling... but it seems possible.

 

I still prefer my original idea, but this makes a strong alternative. Perhaps even stronger.

[cloglord]

I'm not 100% but I believe that an AS can use the OP as a weapon against shadowspawn, in defense of her life, the life of her warder, OR of another sister. That last part is the important part, because that means that even the rebels would be able to join in if needed, as their sisters, albiet estranged sisters, are/would be in danger.

 

Is the imperial seanchan symbol one raven or two? If its two, maybe the two ravens symbolize the seanchan as a whole, but until someone can nail that down for me, I'm still going on the asumption that 2 ravens = 2 attacks.

 

I do not deny that Luckers has an entertaining scenario in the making, I just don't think that it will play out that way, I guess I'll have to RAFO.

[imrathill]

or one of the ravens simply is the army and the other one is tuon comming.... could be

 

or as ppl have said they can symbolise Mat and Toun but i dont rly think so

[MoonBeams]

Wow... sometimes I think some of you guys think way too much *smiles--just kidding*

 

We already know that the Seanchan will attack the White Tower, we saw this in KOD when the Seeker came to visit Deathwatch Guard Karede and saw the map of Tar Valon and asked Karede if he was going to be a part of that.

 

Tuon mentioned to Mat that she will make Tar Valon her capital, we still dont' know for sure where the Seanchan are aiming their big push -- Mat thinks Illian but the target may be the White Tower. Also, Mat's ring has a fox flushing out two ravens -- the two ravens seems to be Seanchan Imperial symbol.. not meaning TWO attacks on the Tower.

 

The tor-raken was flown out to the east to deal with the Arad Doman situation (Ituralde).

 

Also, there is a similarity in Egwene's testing of the Accepted and her Dream in KOD:

 

Her third pass thru the rings showed her as Amyrlin who somehow became Aes Sedai without taking the oaths, she was brought down by Elaida and towards the end was on top of a roof near the edge watching them bring Rand in woozy/stumbling and wondering what she should do.. then

 

Dream, she is hanging onto the edge of a cliff, about to fall, when a Seanchan woman walks down the cliff, she cant see her face but she has a sword strapped on her back offering Egwene a hand saying "together we can make it to the top" or something like that.

 

OK. The Seanchan woman with the sword on her back sounds a lot like Egainin (Leilwin Shipless) who is traveling with Mat currently. That means for her to show up at the White Tower so does Mat need to be there, what connect Mat to the Tower?? The Horn of Valere is stored in the Tower.

 

Both Nynaeve's and Egwene's testing of the Accepted, third pass seems the closest to reality -- Nynaeve had an advisor named Sharina and Egwene was Amyrlin (w/o taking the Oaths). SOOOOOO....0

 

1) I believe that the Seanchan will attack the White Tower and there will be a fierce battle, but the outcome is not yet decided who is the winner.

2) Mat will come to the Tower to retrieve the Horn of Valere and the Band of the Red Hand will somehow take part in the fighting, along with the Younglings and the rebel Aes Sedai.

3) Egeanin/Leilwin will somehow rescue Egwene at the brink of destruction and Egwene will get over her aversion to the Seanchan and form an alliance (one of Egwene's dreams was her confronting Rand and a Seanchan woman was with her).

So somehow all this meshes together (had way too much time at lunch to type this)

 

"that skinned the Goat...."

[TheDiceAgain...]

The only part of that theory that I can't go along with is that Egeanin is the Seanchan woman in Egwene's dream. I have to believe that this is referencing Tuon. One of Egwene's dreams makes it clear that though the Seanchan woman herself is indistinguishable, the weapon she caries is very much real, I think it is referred to as the most substantial part of the vision. Tuon's weapon is her army, and she has a very big army even given the sizable bites that Rand has taken out of it. Also, from the point of view of an Aes Sedai any army with a large amount of a'dam is very formidable threat.

[Luckers]

Mmm... i agree... the shifting face, the fact that the overall figure is female, the strong importance of the sword... all this makes me think the figure is the Seanchan army, led by Tuon to aid Egwene against the shadowspawn.

 

The tor-raken was flown out to the east to deal with the Arad Doman situation (Ituralde).

 

Actually no, Galgan only gives the raken to the Taraboners. The to'raken he withholds, saying only that 'that plan must go forth.'

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mmm... i agree... the shifting face, the fact that the overall figure is female, the strong importance of the sword... all this makes me think the figure is the Seanchan army, led by Tuon to aid Egwene against the shadowspawn.

 

Yeah, I agree too. And Egwene will no doubt find Tuon even more personally repugnant because she trains damane herself.

[CrazyMike]

if Mat shows up at the WT before or during the Battle, he may cause a cease fire,,, in Imperial Ranking he is very close to Tuon, being her husband and he more than likely far out ranks anyone who may be wityh the Senchen at the WT,,, so he could easily tell 'um to stop and be nice,,, the fact of his marriage to Tuon should be the number one bit of news being spread thru official and unofficial channels,,, like military dispatches to the front lines...

[cloglord]

I suppose that Mat's name and likelness could be being spread throughout the seanchan ranks, but what good would it do? The Seanchan are so crazy that they almost killed their own empress for impersonating herself. Who knows what would happen if Mat showed up claiming to be the Prince of the Ravens.

 

Oh, and Luckers, in a little cross posting here. Why is it that Mat would not go to Illian if he knew the horn was there, but he WOULD go to Tar Valon knowing that its full of Aes Sedai?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why is it that Mat would not go to Illian if he knew the horn was there, but he WOULD go to Tar Valon knowing that its full of Aes Sedai?

 

Because he's not after personal glory, or being put on an Aes Sedai leash, but he will go into danger to help women in trouble, especially Egwene (remember the Stone of Tear?) or his wife.

[cloglord]

How many women do you think will die if Matt doesn't blow the horn for the Lat Battle?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You're using logic, which doesn't necessarily apply to these situations. Mat knows he is important to the prophecies, yet he nearly let that woman kill him in Maderin. Those decisions are emotionally driven, and his emotions would tell him to go to help Egwene, where he would not always listen to the logic that would tell him to go to the Horn. Yet another reason for Verin (knowing Mat's nature as she does) to either take it to him directly or give it to Rand, who can essentially grab Mat up by the scruff of the neck.

 

Seriously, there is no compelling reason for anyone to take the Horn to Illian.