one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Just some random DF? I dunno...

J

 

I agree. It's lame as hell. But, the only "obvious" suspects that Jordan has given us are:

 

Rand.

Enaila.

Somara.

Aviendha.

Mat.

Bashere and whoever accompanied him to the palace.

 

That's it.

[Guest Egwene]

lol... come on Bob, you can't be really intelligent one moment and play dumb the next. I am not going to buy it!!

 

..so I'll just ignore that comment and talk about Bashere..lol. Do you believe he has a hand in it, or just that through him someone incidentely gained access?

 

Noooo... I said it takes ME too much time to type YOUR name... so I am shortening it to CW... :lol:

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hey, I know a good suggestion when I hear one :D CW it is!

[Bob T Dwarf]

And before you get started with the Bashere wouldn't go to the palace alone but would order his men to start searching the palace again' date=' you need to convince me he would want to get all his men killed. Armed strangers searching a palace right after a battle is going to draw a lot of attention. They would also be seen as a threat. One person, even armed but walking alone and in the open would be seen as a curiosity, but not a significant threat.[/quote']

 

Well, lessee...

 

Rand enters the palace with two armed and veiled Maidens of the Spear, an apprentice Wise One, a guy in a funny hat, carrying a really weird spear, and a defrocked Forsaken carrying a sword.

 

I don't think Bashere and his boys could look any more dangerous, or draw any more attention than that bunch. :lol:

[Guest cwestervelt]

CW -

 

We're in the aftermath of a very big' date=' very noisy and spectacular battle. There are still Aiel and Trollocs and Myrddraal in the streets. ( that's why Rand has only 5 other people with him in the palace ).

 

Are you telling us that you honestly believe that the Marshall-General of Saldaea would attempt to make his way to the palace alone? Do you honestly think his escort would allow him to go alone?[/quote']

 

Given the mentality of the average Saldaean that we've seen? Yes. Especially once they reach the palace gates. Fighting in and around the palace has ended, so they wouldn't want to appear threatening.

 

Do you honestly believe that 10 armed "wetlanders" would be allowed into the palace by the Aiel? Especially if there are only 5 other people with the Car'a'carn? You are assuming that "no one to announce me" means there are no other Aiel on the palace grounds. The fact that Enaila and Somara have news about the gates being held and that the Caemlyn citizens were joining the fight indicates that there are others coming and going.

 

You've convinced yourself that a random Saldaean Darkfriend is going to be known by Asmodean even though the Darkfriends that went into the Waste with Asmodean had no idea who he was. You've convinced yourself that Asmodean would know a random Saldaean Darkfriend on sight, even though there is no evidence he was ever in any of the Borderlands, let alone Saldaea. You've convinced yourself that it is intuitive. Nothing I can say will change your mind.

[Guest cwestervelt]

lol... come on Bob' date=' you can't be really intelligent one moment and play dumb the next. I am not going to buy it!!

 

..so I'll just ignore that comment and talk about Bashere..lol. Do you believe he has a hand in it, or just that through him someone incidentely gained access?

 

Noooo... I said it takes ME too much time to type YOUR name... so I am shortening it to CW... :lol:[/quote']

 

There doesn't appear to be anyway to change it now... :oops:

[Bob T Dwarf]

CW -

 

I haven't convinced myself of anything. I've only taken the meager facts Jordan has given us and attempted to build a suspect list that doesn't depend on a whole lot of unprovable "what ifs".

 

Fact: There are only six people other than Asmodean verified to be in the palace at the time of the murder.

 

There 'might' have been more, but nobody can prove that or find anything in the text that indicates it.

"I suppose none of the servants have come back," Rand sighed. "One of the cooks, maybe? A helper?" Enaila shook her head scornfully.

 

If there were any guards outside the palace, do you imagine for a moment that they would allow an unknown, armed wetlander to go wandering around the palace alone? Of course not. He would have had an escort of Aiel and someone to check to make sure it was OK to let him in. There was no such Aiel escort, ergo, there were no Aiel guards on the grounds.

 

Heck, direct intervention by the Creator only takes one what if. "What if the Creator did it?" It only takes a few more what ifs to make it anybody at all.

 

I'm trying not to rely on what ifs and just work with the very few people we know are there at the time of the murder. From those few, there is only one what if needed. What if Bashere or one of his people was a DF Asmo had met?

[Guest Egwene]

I am assuming you are playing Devil's advocat Bob. If you were a police officer in charge of the investigation, it's fair to assume you would not just consider those present, but alo the possibility of someone with a motive coming in from outside. If not.... don't bother applying to Scotland Yard for a job.

[Alys Kinch]

**Rand only thought he'd killed Ba'alzamon in the first two books. He hadn't. The death in Tear was the only time he actually did kill him.**

 

i wish you'd quit writing that. we covered this. be'lal was killed in tear. balzy in falme.

 

**The problem with balefire is that the degree to which it rewinds time is a direct result of the strength of the caster. **

 

that's a pretty big assumption that i don't buy because of what has been posted already. look, at one point he erases enough time to bring several people back to life, while in another mere minutes were erased. that is modulation, even if you choose not to acknowledge it.

 

**I thinks he was referring to mentionings of using so much of the power that the effect covered the entire life of the person, so that he had never existed.**

 

it was a question of hte week that was lost in the archiving...

 

** One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.**

 

maybe we have been looking at this wrong. could he have been struck by...whatever before he spoke? maybe a killing stroke that left him alive for only a moment after it happened?

 

** It certainly would have been noticable from the very nearby garden. **

 

we have no idea how close that garden actually was or wasn't... not evidence enough for seeing the light, for avi feeling or not feeling the channeling, and not for mat's medallion.

 

**Still, it seems to me that the small door to a pantry was part of the kitchens,**

 

we don't know what that door was, only what asmo was looking for.

[Alys Kinch]

**What I dont' understand, is assuming that's true, you believe you know the specific time. That's what I want you to answer, because I see no evidence of a time conflict**

 

moghedian told nynaeve she was headed to meet graendal. graendal reportedly said she never made it to demandred who went to meet the d.o. the next day-sometime. could be graendal was refering to a morning meeting or an afternoon meeting. maybe that is some reason graendal would be in camelyn...but one day is not days.

 

**I'd guess 50 feet at most from the garden.**

 

i'd say idle thoughts and idle drifting would mean more distance had passed than if it was intensive thought. who knows how far he went, even if he didn't turn...

 

**Why would she take Asmo out now, after having him in her grasp for a really long time?**

 

usefulness. he was useful, not anymore.

 

** Do you honestly think his escort would allow him to go alone?**

 

do you honestly think he could save face if he didn't order them to help clean up?

 

 

just for fun...

 

Question:

 

What were Moiraine's three questions that she asked the Aelfinn and what were their answers? If the whole answer is RAFO could you give us one Q&A?

 

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

 

Sorry, guys. This one is a big time RAFO.

[Bob T Dwarf]

**Rand only thought he'd killed Ba'alzamon in the first two books. He hadn't. The death in Tear was the only time he actually did kill him.**

 

i wish you'd quit writing that. we covered this. be'lal was killed in tear. balzy in falme.

 

alys -

 

Please reread the end of The Dragon Reborn. Moiraine killed Bel'al. After that Ba'alzamon came out of hiding. Rand then grabbed Callandor and pursued and killed him.

 

Ba'alzamon was merely badly wounded at both Tarwin's Gap and at Falme. Rand thought he'd killed him both times but he was wrong both times.

[dr phil]

ive just had this thought hit me it must of been Cyndane BUTTTTT asmodean believed it to be Lanfear due to her Lanfear weaved a mirror of mists so that asmodean would believe it was Lanfear who came back from the dead to kill him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

**i'd say idle thoughts and idle drifting would mean more distance had passed than if it was intensive thought. who knows how far he went' date=' even if he didn't turn....[/quote']

 

I guess that depends on how big in any dimension you imagine the palace to be. 100 feet on a side plus several stories high is huge, even if it's built as a hollow square. 50 feet would be more than halfway down an interior hall in such a structure.

[Bob T Dwarf]

ive just had this thought hit me it must of been Cyndane BUTTTTT asmodean believed it to be Lanfear due to her Lanfear weaved a mirror of mists so that asmodean would believe it was Lanfear who came back from the dead to kill him.

 

Sorry, Cyndane won't work. Transmigration takes quite a bit of time. Jordan spelled that out in some detail in answering a question he was asked.

 

First you have to procure a suitable body. They don't have spares stacked up in cold storage. Then the existing soul and conciousness must be removed. Then the new soul and conciousness must be installed. Then the body and the new inhabitant have to grow accustomed to each other. It's a lengthy and involved process even for the DO.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I am assuming you are playing Devil's advocat Bob. If you were a police officer in charge of the investigation' date=' it's fair to assume you would not just consider those present, but alo the possibility of someone with a motive coming in from outside. If not.... don't bother applying to Scotland Yard for a job.[/quote']

 

Before you can consider someone coming in from the outside, you have to identify a person with a strong motive, place them in the vicinity, and give them the means to accomplish the crime.

 

Jordan has told us that at the time of the murder we have all the information needed to identify the killer. So, who has he placed there other than the six that I've identified?

[Bob T Dwarf]

**

maybe we have been looking at this wrong. could he have been struck by...whatever before he spoke? maybe a killing stroke that left him alive for only a moment after it happened?

 

I'd say that's a definite possibility.

[dr phil]

or it could of been Graendal who did it and she masked her self with the mask of mirrors so she looked like lanfear. i say as lanfear due to his reaction to the killer. i dont think he would of been that surprised to c graendal. but in seeing lanfear a person he thought dead that would freak him out

[Bob T Dwarf]

Egwene -

 

Before a policeman would even consider someone from the outside he would have eliminated everyone inside.

 

We can eliminate five of those inside, but we have no idea what Bashere's motives are. He says he's hunting Taim, but when Rand refuses to give Taim up, he just meekly rolls over and offers to join Rand instead. That, in itself looks a little fishy.

 

It might also just be smart pragmatism. We just don't know enough about Bashere at the point when Asmo is killed to eliminate him as a suspect. Especially since the context of the passage in which Asmo is killed doesn't provide us with a dependable timeframe for the crime. That passage is set off by itself. That usually indicates a change of both time and place from what preceded it.

[Adam]

Noone He is still alive.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I guess that depends on how big in any dimension you imagine the palace to be. 100 feet on a side plus several stories high is huge' date=' even if it's built as a hollow square. 50 feet would be more than halfway down an interior hall in such a structure.[/quote']

 

The palace in Andor is much bigger than 100 feet on a side. Check page 642 of The Fires of Heaven as it has a map of Caemlyn. The palace grounds take up about 1/2 of the Inner City, and the palace itself covers about 1/4 to 1/3 of the grounds. If I remember correctly, the palace and the entire inner city were Ogier built too, and they tended to do things on a grand scale.

 

We can eliminate five of those inside, but we have no idea what Bashere's motives are. He says he's hunting Taim, but when Rand refuses to give Taim up, he just meekly rolls over and offers to join Rand instead. That, in itself looks a little fishy.

 

Bashere came to Caemlyn because he was hunting Mazrim Taim. Queen Tenobia herself confirms this in the Prologue from The Path of Daggers, and is royally pissed that Bashere hasn't finished the job but started working for Rand.

 

"I will not turn back," she went on fiercely, "whatever the rest of you do. I sent my dear Uncle Davram to bring me the head of the false Dragon Mazrim Taim, and now he and Taim both follow this al'Thor, if I can believe half what I hear."

 

And, what is so odd about him meekly rolling over. We have seen lots of examples of this type of thing happening around Rand due to his Ta'veren status. With the track record for possible but improbable things occurring in close proximaty to Rand, that change of attitude is almost to be expected.

 

Especially since the context of the passage in which Asmo is killed doesn't provide us with a dependable timeframe for the crime. That passage is set off by itself. That usually indicates a change of both time and place from what preceded it.

 

You can likely safely rule out any significant time shift. Robert Jordan specifically notes that Rand observes Asmodean playing his harp in the garden where Mat and Aviendha are. The next scene draws mention to the fact that Asmodean is tucking his harp under his arm and leaving Asmodean doesn't like playing for people who are inattentive and unappreciative and Mat and Aviendha weren't listening. If he didn't enjoy playing in those circumstances, he wouldn't have kept it up for long, especially when his mind was troubled by what happened that morning. Namely, the fact that so many people keep saying they thought they saw him dead.

 

Edit: added section about time passage.

[BenTGaidin]

Your theory of balefire makes it possible to reduce the timestream effect to where it could become nothing more than a disintegration ray. Just make the target vanish at the point in time when the beam strikes. Very useful weapon. Nobody would abandon using that.

 

Except that it's not necessarily true, as you're assuming, that the damage to the Pattern is from the _length_ of time removed. It's possible that the damage is caused not by the thread's disappearance in the past, but by the very fact of its removal. Perhaps the Pattern is unstabalized because there's suddenly a number of threads that it can't weave back into the pool of available souls or something.

 

Additionally, I'm pretty sure Rand has Balefired things back differing amounts of time in the series, anyway... For example, Rhavin's actions seemed to have disappeared longer than those of the Darkhounds that slobbered (or didn't) on Mat.

 

 

Ben T-Gaidin

[LightOne]

I am for the theory Greandal.

[rd2000]

Graendal holds the most water in my cup, but I consider Taim a narrow possibility also.

[Thor]

i did it. seriously, you have any idea how surprised a mortal would be to see the god of thunder appear to smite them? :P

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, Rand has balefired things for varying lengths of time. Rand is also a male channeler whose strength is still growing in unpredictable leaps, so it only makes sense that the backstep would be less in Rhuidean than it would in Caemlyn.

 

A thread terminates any time a person dies. If the contention that the time effect of balefire can be modulated at all is correct, then it should be possible to reduce that effect to zero. Then the effect on the Pattern is no different from any other sudden death.