one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Egwene]

Why limit ourselves, Bob? In the beginning I got the impression that you looked at things from an 'until there is a No from RJ, I will consider the option' point of view. It does come as a suprise that you seem to have done a 180... are you someone else under Bob's name?????

 

Until I have convincing (that is convincing me!) evidence I won't rule out much.

 

*use of abilities introduced later is cause for elimination*... Why???

 

*if they're dead they're out* ... glad you did not include Lanfear in that!

 

*male channeling is out*...would it really be impossible for all the clues to be there bar that the killer channeled? Isn't it pretty certain that we only have part of the solution and inverted weaves might be part of the missing bit?

 

Why must those not introduced as themselves be eliminated? I am probably forgetting something here...but if you could just reiterate...

 

Sometimes the same information looked at in a different light can completly change ones understanding of a situation... I will keep an open mind because if this thread has taught me one thing..... it is the fact that there is still a lot I have not considered.

 

Paradoxic... the room could have been warded.

[Paradoxic]

On a side note, CW, there is something other than inversion that makes weaves invisible from the get-go. I forget what they call it, but it is used in one of the more recent books by a female Forsaken.

[rogue5]

Hey all,

 

after reading 24 pages, I didn't see this presented. If it was I am sorry and bean me now and forever!!!

 

Lets start with who knew Asmo was a Forsaken

 

Then out of those who knew he was there

 

Then out of those who could Channel including the True Power.(yes I believe he was killed by Channeling.)

 

Then out of that hopefully small group who had the opportunity!

 

I think this killing had more to do with opportunity than motive, either he stepped in on something/someone or was alone and the situation was taken advantage of. So either surprise at "No, you!" or disbelief at NO! YOU! I am going to reread FoH and see if I can figure it out, it is the only book that I have only read twice. If the rest of you guys can narrow the list please post.

[Guest Egwene]

Rogue, not a bad suggestion, if you believe the killer channeled.

 

However, you're theory would disregard any possibility of Asmo accidentally stumbling accross someone's hiding hole. I would still keep that line open for a seperate 'investigation thread'.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why limit ourselves? Because Jordan has said that, at the time of the murder, we possess all the clues needed to identify the killer.

 

Since, True Power, Inverted weaves, transmigrated souls etal would figure into many theories, and none of those things have been introduced yet, how could we have all of the clues? If the suspect requires any of those things to do the deed, he can't be the killer.

 

Since we have all of the clues, how can anyone we haven't even met yet be a suspect?

[jasonr]

Wow :shock: I got people to argue over what they are going to argue about! That is cool. :D

 

I agree with Bob, or whoever posted the guidelines thingy. There needs to be guidelines, at the time of the murder eliminates many suspects like Taim, you just don't know enough about them. It also eliminates any crazy theories of the Seanchans or such. I wish I would get around to reading more RJ interveiws.

 

Now everyone, don't rule out non-channelers so fast. Asmo's death was quick, we know that but it doesn't neccisarily mean that he was killed by the OP. A knife in the heart of a sword through the throat efectivly kills in an instant. The sword in the throat also explains why the blood would drain from his face, if you take it literally and not just from fear.

[Myth]

all you guys who picked Bela, shame on you! :lol: i thought everyone knew she follows the Way of the Leaf. now, then Hopper on the other hand... :idea:

 

the big, bad wolf gobbled him up since those three blasted pigs got away! :P if it hadn't been for those meddling kids and that bloody talking dog, he would have gotten away with it, too! and then, he popped back into TR where he has this little thing going over at Lassie's place...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Wow :shock: I got people to argue over what they are going to argue about! That is cool. :D

 

I agree with Bob' date=' or whoever posted the guidelines thingy. There needs to be guidelines, [b']at the time of the murder[/b] eliminates many suspects like Taim, you just don't know enough about them. It also eliminates any crazy theories of the Seanchans or such. I wish I would get around to reading more RJ interveiws.

 

Now everyone, don't rule out non-channelers so fast. Asmo's death was quick, we know that but it doesn't neccisarily mean that he was killed by the OP. A knife in the heart of a sword through the throat efectivly kills in an instant. The sword in the throat also explains why the blood would drain from his face, if you take it literally and not just from fear.

 

It isn't just the instantaneous killing. It is the cleanup afterwards. Slashing a throat is messy. A knife in the heart isn't as messy but you still have the body to dispose of. None of the good guys know Asmodean is dead, let alone murdered.

[jasonr]

True, but there are still other people that could get rid of the evidence, just for example, the Aiel aren't exactly messy killers and they don't leave behind the mess if it isn't neccisary. Any whisper that the Car'a'carn is in danger, and boom! He dead. Ok, just fyi, I don't think the Aiel did it. Just an example of a non-channeler, don't start argueing with me about the Aiel, just a top of the head thing.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A knife through the eye doesn't make a whole lot of mess either.

[jasonr]

Ok, so now I narrowed it down to... wait, with the whole non-channeler thing, didn't I just expand our looky list... crap. :( Oh, and Myth, if you read my first posts and their reactions to it, I doubt you really want to be doing things like that. :D

 

Personally, I beleive (and by the fear of the Egwene) that there is no way Lanfear could have done it. IF she has escaped/been rescued from the Finnland, we know that Morridin has Lanfear's mindtrap. Cydene -formally known as Lanfear- is firmly under Morridin's control, as seen in a couple of chapters, esspecially the one where she and Moggy go to Grendael and tell her to join up with Morry.

 

Now, Morry doesn't want Rand particularly killed, only if it's neccisary. Morry know Lanfear and I doubt that he would let her anywhere near Rand at this point.

 

I gotta stop here due to RL, so here it is.

[Marak]

No my buddy is not Marak' date=' though I know him. He is the Division Leader of the Dark Friends on DMPSW and RolePlays Aginor. And I was also confused, he has Belal in his siggy not Bela. It makes much more sence if Belal was killed, not Bela[/quote']

 

Just to clear this up, I'm not the DL of SG on the DMPSW (Rand/Ranulf Ryan is), I more a junior member of staff. And yeah, my sig was inspired by Moiraine vs Belal. Belal was spouting off about how awesome he was, and how he would completely destroy her, and make her serve the Shadow, etc, when Moiraine balefired him.

 

Also, I have to admit, your Bela theory is very good. However, it has several flaws in it. Firstly, saidin and saidar were PUT there by the Creator, to drive the Wheel. Since Bela is obviously the incarnation of the Creator, she wouldn't use a power she created. She'd use something akin to the True Power, except way, way more awesome.

 

Now, assuming Bela ambushes and kills Asmodean, we are left with one vital question? How does she dispose of the body? It's really quite simple. Since Bela fused with Pikachu, and incorporated mechanical digestive systems into her body, she can EAT Asmodean, thereby disposing of him.

 

Asmodean's crack ninjas attack Bela, but Bela counters, using Thunder, zapping them into roast ninja pies. Once this is completed, Bela Belaports (It's like teleporting, except with a horse) back to her home, wherever that might be, where she reports her success to Superman, and celebrates with a wild night on the town, with Batman, Lois Lane, Lews Therin, and others.

 

Now, some may say Graendal did it. But most of the Forsaken were afraid of Bela, and fled her mighty power. Rahvin was trapped by Rand, and couldn't flee. Asmodean didn't have enough power to Travel. Graendal did obviously not have the means to hire either Chuck Norris, pirates, or ninjas, to defend herself whilst killing Asmodean.

 

The Dark One is probably out of the picture, considering that he's still trapped in Shayol Ghul. (I personally believe he could break out, he's just too damn lazy, and so delegates the tasks to his underlings, much like those managers who sit around drinking all day, and ordering people around).

 

Therefore, that leaves us with:

Bela

Chuck Norris

Shadow Ninja Clan

The Creator (In non-Bela form)

Chuck Norris

Bruce Wayne (Non-Batman form)

Graendal

Chuck Norris

Rand

Semirhage

Chuck Norris

Norris, Chuck

Charizard

Chuck Norris

 

There. Hopefully, that sums up our lists of suspects. (Chuck Norris is just too damn awesome to mention only once)

[jasonr]

And there is our famous "Words from Marak" and sorry for the confusion, coulda sworn I saw you as DL somewere... :D Hahaha, that shows you all of you nonbeleivers, I am nothing compaired to Marak. Now go frollic around him doing weird dances and begging him to be your king. *sits and watches as the loonies go frollic around thier king*

 

Echem, ok, back to realism now. As you can see, my friend is no where near as... creative *coughinsanecough* as Marak is. :D

 

EDIT: just realized, I probibly got confused because you are the BioChecker (right?), since BT only has thirty registered members and about 15 active ones, I think Dali just leaves the Bios to Estel, Halvie, and whoever the FL and warder biocheckers are, they usually get most of them anyway. :D

[Marak]

Heh. SG'd be lucky to get 6 or 7 active members, (discounting the Chosen, of course).

 

In all seriousness, though, it's probably going to be revealed in the last book, or the last book will give us near-definitive proof on who it is. I think I'll just sit back, relax, and wait for a Memory of Light, at which point RJ will most likely work both Chuck Norris, ninjas, pirates, and a lot more Bela into the series. :P

[Guest Egwene]

:lol: *sorry, I am in stitches about Myth's post!!*

 

Nice to see you guys from the RP side on here! Though of course jasonr you know that I wouldn't let you get away with excluding Lanfear!! For all my reasons listed from page one to here!!!!!

 

Bob...If RJ says we have all the clues needed, I just don't understand that that should exclude additional clues he could have given, but didn't. We havn't been told that a strand of black hair was found.... does this mean I have to assume the killer is bold????

[jasonr]

*inches away from angry female* geez I have been doing that a lot lately, with about four ladies. Although Muir isn't active right now... (stupid unanounced LOA's) *goes and frollics around Marak hoping the King can protect him*

[Bob T Dwarf]

Marak -

 

Bela is just silly. As the embodiment of the Creator, she has far more important things to do than bother with a piddly Forsaken like Asmo. A narrow hallway wouldn't give her room for any of her Kung-Fu moves anyway. Besides, Bela, being a consumate lady, would never eat anything as unsavory as Asmodean. Jordan is obviously saving Bela and her awesome superpowers for a crucial moment during Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Pirates simply don't have enough room to swing a cutlass is a narrow hallway, what with the big tricorn hat and parrot and all.

 

Chuck Norris won't work either. I mean, if you had Sheree J. Wilson in a miniskirt waiting back at the ranch, would you be in some dinky hallway in Caemlyn? I thought not.

 

Ninjas make an attractive possiblity except that they don't arise until late in the Fourth Age. Thus, they would have to be The Time Traveling Ninjas of Horus. As you well know, those are all being employed in the search for Dr. Who.

 

That leaves only the good Doctor himself. He obviously positioned the Tardis very cleverly behind that door. Asmo stepped through, the Doctor closed the door and spirited him off to Beta Zangulon, where he was disposed of.

 

Glad I could clear all of that up.

[Guest cwestervelt]

:lol: *sorry' date=' I am in stitches about Myth's post!!*

 

Nice to see you guys from the RP side on here! Though of course jasonr you know that I wouldn't let you get away with excluding Lanfear!! For all my reasons listed from page one to here!!!!!

 

Bob...If RJ says we have all the clues needed, I just don't understand that that should exclude additional clues he could have given, but didn't. We havn't been told that a strand of black hair was found.... does this mean I have to assume the killer is bold????[/quote']

 

Egwene, I think it is safe to assume the killer is bold. Bald is a different matter though. :P

 

There are supposed to be clues in some of the later books but they aren't necessary to solve the crime. According to RJ, we had all the information we needed to figured it out at the point of the killing, and definitely by the end of The Path of Daggers.

 

I'm still going with my original gut instinct on this. I jumped straight to Moiraine the first time I read the book and have seen nothing to counter it. When I first came to the boards, I was surprised at how much scorn Moiraine supporters were shown as I thought it was the most obvious thing. I was even more surprised at how much support Graendal was given.

 

I must ask, was Graendal already the most popular suspect before The Path of Daggers? If she was, RJ's comments about how so few of the letters he recieves have the right killer would likely rule her out. Graendal, having the support she does, would likely be the number one suspect in the fan mail.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A killer needs three things. Motive. Means. Opportunity.

 

In order for it to be Moiraine, you need a motive. What is hers?

 

In order for it to be Moiraine, she needs the opportunity. How did she get there? If she somehow got out and was able to get to Caemlyn in time, why is she still imprisoned in the Tower of Ghenjie?

[Guest Majsju]

 

Now, keep RJ's background in mind, he has a background in physics. Figuring something out is not namedropping til you get it right. It's about showing who did it, what information you used to show who did it, etc.

 

Ie, you must show how you used the clues RJ had planted to figure out who the killes was. That's a bit harder than just guessing until he says Yes.

[Guest cwestervelt]

A killer needs three things. Motive. Means. Opportunity.

 

In order for it to be Moiraine' date=' you need a motive. What is hers?

 

In order for it to be Moiraine, she needs the opportunity. How did she get there? If she somehow got out and was able to get to Caemlyn in time, why is she still imprisoned in the Tower of Ghenjie?[/quote']

 

We've been through it all, so I would just repeat myself. Her means, motive and opportunity are just as good as a second fiddle Foresaken who is a minor character, with no reason to be in Caemlyn and has no known tendancy to act on her own. No matter what RJ's background, he wouldn't say it should be obvious at the point of the killing if it wasn't a major player up to that point in the books.

 

We can argue in circles forever on this. There is nothing to say the Finn's couldn't put Moiraine out anywhere and pull her back. There is nothing to say they can. If the rules of the Tear door apply what we do know is that once you begin your dealings, you must finish.

[Paradoxic]

Here's something I think we should start considering. It is a section from the FAQ regarding the fact that RJ said he'd give us more hints as the story progressed.

 

"RJ has repeatedly said that we should be able to figure out who the killer is. In fact, at a post-TPOD signing in NYC, he talked to Aaron Bergman about this:

 

I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died. He said that he thinks it's obvious now and we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of [TPOD].

[Aaron Bergman, report from NYC book signing, 20 October 1998]

 

Well, RJ is obviously using the same definition of "obvious" that physics professors are wont to use. That is, it's obvious if you know the answer, and know which information is useful and which is irrelevant. It isn't "obvious" in the usual meaning of the word. Note that RJ "also claims that very, very few of the fan letters he gets are correct about [who killed Asmo]." [Post-TPOD signing, Northern Virginia, 21 November, 1998, report by John Novak.] This clearly shows that RJ's idea of "obvious" and his readers' idea of "obvious" don't really mix, do they?

 

However, this statement by RJ is useful in eliminating possibilities. Not even RJ could stretch "being able to figure it out the instant he died" to encompass people or things we didn't know a thing about before the killing, such as Shaidar Haran, Mesaana, or gholam.

 

Note that RJ's comment implies that something in TPOD should clarify the issue. One thing applicable to the suspects was the appearance of Cyndane, which did nothing but throw more fuel on the fire in the Lanfear vs. Graendal debate (see below); the other possibility is the attack on Rand in Cairhien, which Taim ordered (this is stretching it though, since the significance of the attack was not clarified for us until WH). The comment can also be used as an argument against the likelihood of suspects like Slayer and Fain, who were largely irrelevant to events in TPOD. " - http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html#sec

 

So, who has an encyclopedic memory of the events in TPOD? I agree that the Lanfear v2.0 thing was interesting, but there must be other possibilities created by TPOD.

 

I think that such a comment would rule out Bashere and anyone with Bashere, since we never again hear of Saldaen DFs and nothing dark/mysterious about Bashere.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not really. Her letter to Rand deprives her of motive. She doesn't approve, but she does understand.

 

Lanfear is every bit as unlikely as Moiraine. And for all the same reasons. No real motive, and a less than improbable opportunity.

 

As far as Graendal goes, she didn't do it either. When Demandred reports to the DO, he reports that Graendal is the one who told him Moghedien is missing. Why Graendal? Jordan could have made it Demandred himself. Or, Semirhage. Or, Mesaana. Or, Sammael. He deliberately made it Graendal. Why?

 

To give her an alibi.

 

Thus we know beyond doubt in the Prologue to the very next book that it was neither Graendal nor Demandred.

 

Since we still haven't met either Semirhage or Mesaana as themselves, it can't be them. If it was a Forsaken it could only be Sammael. He's the only one with an avowed motive, definite means and possible opportunity. Every action we see Sammael ever take tells us that Sam does not move against Rand openly, or in person. He uses surrogates for all his offensive moves. Thus it can't be Sammael. He would not have been in Caemlyn himself.

 

That exhausts the Forsaken. So, it has to be someone else.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well, RJ is obviously using the same definition of "obvious" that physics professors are wont to use. That is, it's obvious if you know the answer, and know which information is useful and which is irrelevant. It isn't "obvious" in the usual meaning of the word. Note that RJ "also claims that very, very few of the fan letters he gets are correct about [who killed Asmo]." [Post-TPOD signing, Northern Virginia, 21 November, 1998, report by John Novak.] This clearly shows that RJ's idea of "obvious" and his readers' idea of "obvious" don't really mix, do they?

 

It was that comment about "very, very few of the fan letters" that made me ask earlier how long Graendal has been a popular choice. She has been for as long as I've bothered looking on any of the theory posts, but I never really started doing that until a couple years ago. She's by far too popular based on the comment, but I don't know if the comment was made before or after she became the popular choice.

[Paradoxic]

Well, also keep in mind that his comment comes from 1998. Even just last year when I first got involved in this monster of a debate, Lanfear seemed to be the most popular of the suspects... that or maybe her followers were just the loudest.

 

The problem is that we have no idea what the nature of the debate was like back 1995-1998. We also don't know if the letters sent to RJ were really representative of the overall debate anyway.