one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think it was Graendel' date=' and I'm not aware of any commitments that make it impossible.

J[/quote']

 

Demandred in his report to the DO in the Prologue to Lord of Chaos:

 

"...And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they agreed. Also yesterday..."

 

Thus the meeting had to have been scheduled for sometime after Moggy was captured by Nynaeve. That happens to be the time period when Asmo was killed.

[Jedimuppet]

I think it was Graendel' date=' and I'm not aware of any commitments that make it impossible.

J[/quote']

 

Demandred in his report to the DO in the Prologue to Lord of Chaos:

 

"...And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they agreed. Also yesterday..."

 

Thus the meeting had to have been scheduled for sometime after Moggy was captured by Nynaeve. That happens to be the time period when Asmo was killed.

 

So your assertionthat it was impossible for Graendel is that Demandred says that Graendel said that Moghy didn't meet her during some vague timespan?

 

I'm not convinced that anything there says first of all the meeting was for that same day, and that even if it was, she couldn't have travelled there.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Do you have a source for the info that it isn't someone we haven't met? I keep looking and can't find any.

 

NO. But it seems implicit to me in Jordan's statement that the killer should be intuitively obvious to a casual reader at the time the murder occurs.

 

There are two or three ( depending on how you classify Mesaana ) Forsaken that we haven't yet met at the end of FoH. None of them could be intuitively obvious.

[Jedimuppet]

Jedi' date=' I think the best we can do is carry on giving RJ something to grin about.

 

To that effect, I'd like to try and see if we could make a case for Mesaana. Or are their things like RJ said 'no' to keep her out of the equasion?[/quote']

 

Fair enough Egwene, though it did personally make me sad. I just told my best friend who doesn't follow the net dimension, but loves the books. Ah, but you're right..

 

I dont' think it was Messanna because we hadn't met her yet. I guess you could make a case that we have in disquise, but intuitively, it's not working for me.

 

So my gut says she's involved in the someone you know prohibition, but I can see logical ways around it. You should probably have to have a pretty strong case, because RJ said it was intuitively obvious. Obviously that was a joke, but I think we can safely take it to mean that it would have to be someone we knew as a player..

 

J

[Guest Egwene]

Just did a bit of research on various sites and it does look like other than a mention in the glossary in a previous book, she really wasn't known to us.

 

Ok, agree, going only by what we know up until Asmo dies, there is no way it's even vaguely likely anyone would have suspected her at that moment.

 

Ah, well.... guess it was Moiraine after all. As her lawyer, I am really just trying to proove she didn't do it.. (though of course, it's obvious it was her)

 

Edit: typo

[Guest cwestervelt]

Do you have a source for the info that it isn't someone we haven't met? I keep looking and can't find any.

 

NO. But it seems implicit to me in Jordan's statement that the killer should be intuitively obvious to a casual reader at the time the murder occurs.

 

There are two or three ( depending on how you classify Mesaana ) Forsaken that we haven't yet met at the end of FoH. None of them could be intuitively obvious.

 

I guess I should have been clearer concerning what I meant. I was looking for a source that says we have seen Mesaana's alter ego. RJ said we hadn't seen Demandred's but I can never find something that says we have or haven't seen Mesaana's. Only that we know her general area of operation. Somewhere in or around the White Tower.

[Jedimuppet]

Do you have a source for the info that it isn't someone we haven't met? I keep looking and can't find any.

 

NO. But it seems implicit to me in Jordan's statement that the killer should be intuitively obvious to a casual reader at the time the murder occurs.

 

There are two or three ( depending on how you classify Mesaana ) Forsaken that we haven't yet met at the end of FoH. None of them could be intuitively obvious.

 

It seems likely that we've met her alter ego at some point in the tower.

J

 

I guess I should have been clearer concerning what I meant. I was looking for a source that says we have seen Mesaana's alter ego. RJ said we hadn't seen Demandred's but I can never find something that says we have or haven't seen Mesaana's. Only that we know her general area of operation. Somewhere in or around the White Tower.

 

It seems likely that we've met her alter ego at some point in the tower.

 

That being said, we've not seen her as a Forsaken player, and for that reason, I'm putting her out of the running as one of my personal picks. I think in order to be considered we have to have met the character undisquised, or at least in full on evil mode.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Seems likely, yes, but is there anything that confirms it. A lot of people thought it seemed likely that we had met Demandred's and look where that got them.

[Guest Egwene]

looks like one of those confusion moments.... :?

[Jedimuppet]

I was editing a mistake, and you responded too quickly :P

 

I'm not counting on it one way or the other. It does seem likely to me, because by now, I think RJ would have said something like he did for Demandred. I think people have even succesfully guessed her identity, but obviously, it's impossible to be sure. That's just circumstantial.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

I was editing a mistake' date=' and you responded too quickly :P

 

I'm not counting on it one way or the other. It does seem likely to me, because by now, I think RJ would have said something like he did for Demandred. I think people have even succesfully guessed her identity, but obviously, it's impossible to be sure. That's just circumstantial.

J[/quote']

 

Been there, done that. Hate it when it happens... :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jedi -

 

I know you place an awful lot of faith in, "The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

So, let's parse it out.

 

When Moiraine balefires Bel'al:

There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream, "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Bel'al became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a hearbeat, flecks consumed before the cry faded.

 

Slightly similar phraseology, but what does the phraseology really convey. Nothing more than that death was instantaneos. Bel'al would have been equally dead before the cry faded if he'd been stabbed through the heart.

 

Note also the visual intensity of the balefire... white fire hotter than the sun... a glaring rod that banished all shadows.

 

Then when she's explaining balefire to Rand in Rhuidean:

When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern. You are much stronger. Very much so.

 

Now, we learn that as visually intense as Moiraine's balefire might appear, the best she can manage is to, "remove only a few seconds from the Pattern."

 

Finally, regarding Asmodean:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

 

Before we deal with anything else, lets start with, "One step, and he stopped..." He doesn't even clear the doorway. Whether that door swings inward or outward, it is still standing open. So, if even minimal balefire were used, "white fire hotter than the sun... a glaring rod that banished all shadows" would have been obvious for quite a distance up and down both hallways. It certainly would have been noticable from the very nearby garden.

 

Nobody notices a thing. Not Rand, in the room above. Not Aviendha a few feet away. Not Mat with his medallion.

[Jedimuppet]

Jedi -

 

I know you place an awful lot of faith in' date=' "The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

[/quote']

 

Sure, do; with good reason, I think.

 

So, let's parse it out.

Ok.

 

When Moiraine balefires Bel'al:

There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream, "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Bel'al became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a hearbeat, flecks consumed before the cry faded.

 

 

Slightly similar phraseology, but what does the phraseology really convey. Nothing more than that death was instantaneos. Bel'al would have been equally dead before the cry faded if he'd been stabbed through the heart.

 

Very similar verbiage. Strikingly similar. One might almost say HINT similar. As far as Bel'al being dead before the cry faded, we seem to disagree there. It seems to me as if his death was pushed back in time. He's poetically showing us the pattern destruction.

 

Note also the visual intensity of the balefire... white fire hotter than the sun... a glaring rod that banished all shadows.

What's that have to do with anything? Balefire is always bright..

 

Then when she's explaining balefire to Rand in Rhuidean:

When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern. You are much stronger. Very much so.

 

Well, straight from Robert Jordan, we now know the power used in the balefire is proportionate to the pattern destruction. We also know that the *strongest* Moiraine can manage is a few seconds...hmm I wonder what the weakest is? Well at least we know that the BF effects *can* be modulated. Thanks for solving that earlier dispute.

 

Now, we learn that as visually intense as Moiraine's balefire might appear, the best she can manage is to, "remove only a few seconds from the Pattern."

 

Nothing new or interesting, but ok.

 

Finally, regarding Asmodean:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

 

 

Before we deal with anything else, lets start with, "One step, and he stopped..." He doesn't even clear the doorway. Whether that door swings inward or outward, it is still standing open. So, if even minimal balefire were used, "white fire hotter than the sun... a glaring rod that banished all shadows" would have been obvious for quite a distance up and down both hallways. It certainly would have been noticable from the very nearby garden.

 

Nobody notices a thing. Not Rand, on the floor above. Not Aviendha a few feet away. Not Mat with his medallion.

 

Ok, no matter how bright something is, you have to be able to see it for it to matter. For instance, what's being upstairs have to do with anything? Are you suggesting Rand should have seen BF through the *floor*? Come on.

 

We don't really have any reason to believe that Mat should have felt his medallion be cold from that far away. usually, he has to be targeted, anyway.

 

Can't recall where Avi was, but I'll say this: Read how BF is described; It's incredibly bright, but the light doesn't travel. It's only apparent when you look at it. BF, for instance, wouldn't light a room. It would just travel. I believe this description is clear if you read carefully.

 

I find it interesting you poke holes with such exacting attention, yet you are very sweeping in your generalizations of what can't be as far as Graendel being stuck meeting Moggy.

 

I'm now curious to hear an indepth hole free rendition of your pet theory...

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

The light from balefire certainly does travel.

 

"... a glaring rod that banished all shadows."

 

And that was in the Heart of the Stone, one of the largest rooms currently in existence. And, don't forget there are massive stone columns some distance from the walls, yet it "banished all shadows", even those behind those columns. That's pretty bright. That's lightning flash bright.

 

No, I don't think Rand would have necessarily seen anything, but he probably would have sensed a channeler that nearby. Ditto Avi. And certainly ditto Mat's medallion.

 

Avi and Mat would have also seen the flash.

 

Jordan is the one who has Graendal meeting Moggy. You're the one who needs to explain how she could be two places at once.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Dang it, I don't want to get drawn into this again...

 

Before we deal with anything else, lets start with, "One step, and he stopped..." He doesn't even clear the doorway. Whether that door swings inward or outward, it is still standing open. So, if even minimal balefire were used, "white fire hotter than the sun... a glaring rod that banished all shadows" would have been obvious for quite a distance up and down both hallways. It certainly would have been noticable from the very nearby garden.

 

Bob, we do not know that Mat and Aviendha were in a "very nearby garden".

 

Admodean has "drifted away" from Mat and Aviendha, but there is nothing to say how far. By the time he pulls open the small door he could have drifted quite down any number of corridors. He obviously has drifted out of their sight as they don't show anymore awareness of Asmodean's fate than Rand. Or do you want to start arguing that they would have felt it unimportant to tell Rand they just witnessed the murder of someone Rand spends a lot of time with?

[Jedimuppet]

The light from balefire certainly does travel.

 

"... a glaring rod that banished all shadows."

 

And that was in the Heart of the Stone' date=' one of the largest rooms currently in existence.

 

No, I don't think Rand would have necessarily seen anything, but he probably would have sensed a channeler that nearby. Ditto Avi. And certainly ditto Mat's medallion.

 

Avi and Mat would have also seen the flash.

 

Jordan is the one who has Graendal meeting Moggy. You're the one who needs to explain how she could be two places at once.[/quote']

 

Well first of all, I was mistaken on the balefire light thing. Still, it seems to me that the small door to a pantry was part of the kitchens, and somebody would have had to have been in those rooms to see the light...so while I admit I was mistaken on the first part, I don't think anyone was near enoug to witness.

 

I dont' believe we have enough information about Mat's medallion to say for sure what he would've felt.

 

As for as moggy, did RJ Graendel was there? Let's look at that again. I believe demandred says graendel said she had a meeting. What I dont' understand, is assuming that's true, you believe you know the specific time. That's what I want you to answer, because I see no evidence of a time conflict. There's days worth of leeway there, and besides she can cover the whole earth in a blink....So, no, I think you share some of the burden of proof, if you're going to continue with that assertion.

 

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Demandred would not lie to the DO. That just isn't conducive to long life and prosperity.

 

He reports that Lanfear and Asmodean are missing, yesterday. That Rahvin is dead, yesterday. That Moghedien did not make a meeting with Graendal, "as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence."

 

If Moggy didn't make the meeting, it could not have been scheduled for the morning, because Moggy was still free then. Yesterday, between the time Moggy was captured and when "today" started is not a matter of days.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Just to clarify for this for everyone. We do not know where in the palace Asmodean was.

 

What we know is that he left the garden where Mat and Aviendha were and was looking for the pantry and wine.

 

There is nothing that says he ever found either.

 

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 56 "Glowing Embers", page 682.

 

He opened a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

[Jedimuppet]

Demandred would not lie to the DO. That just isn't conducive to long life and prosperity.

 

He reports that Lanfear and Asmodean are missing' date=' yesterday. That Rahvin is dead, yesterday. That Moghedien did not make a meeting with Graendal, [u']"as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence."[/u]

 

If Moggy didn't make the meeting, it could not have been scheduled for the morning, because Moggy was still free then. Yesterday, between the time Moggy was captured and when "today" started is not a matter of days.

 

I find your arguments to be assumptions piled on assumptions. To begin with, what makes you so sure that Moggy missed her meeting because she was in captivity already?

 

Also, how do you know that Graendel was not lying? You dont' think she'd lie to another Forsaken?

 

And assuming that's all true, how do you know she didn't make a pit stop, run into asmodean, kill him, then go on to her meeting to find Moggy not there.

 

Where are these assumptions coming from?

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

What we do know is that Asmo drifted away to go search for the pantry. That he only had time to think a very few thoughts before he opened a door that he hoped led to where the pantry might be. Everything that he thinks before he opens that door would flit through his mind, your mind, or my mind in a few seconds at most. Certainly less time than it takes to read on the page.

 

That doesn't give him time to get very far from that garden. He's idly drifting, not striding briskly. We are not told about any corners turned, or decisions made about directions to head. He drifts away straight down the hall and opens a small door that he hopes provides servant's access to the working parts of the palace. I'd guess 50 feet at most from the garden.

[Jedimuppet]

What we do know is that Asmo drifted away to go search for the pantry. That he only had time to think a very few thoughts before he opened a door that he hoped led to where the pantry might be. Everything that he thinks before he opens that door would flit through his mind' date=' your mind, or my mind in a few seconds at most. Certainly less time than it takes to read on the page.

 

That doesn't give him time to get very far from that garden. He's idly drifting, not striding briskly. We are not told about any corners turned, or decisions made about directions to head. He drifts away straight down the hall and opens a small door that he hopes provides servant's access to the working parts of the palace. I'd guess 50 feet at most from the garden.[/quote']

 

I think you're assuming too much, again. RJ has a habit of telling us every minute detail sometimes, and then sometimes five battles go by in one page. I think it's a mistake to base your theory on textual descriptions that may not be giving an accurate timing. I always thought of it as he was musing, and those were samples of thoughts drifting through his head as he walked...

 

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

And at 50 feet, Mat and Aviendha didn't hear Asmodean's exclamation of "No!"?

 

If they did hear, in the time it would have taken them to go the 50 feet to investigate for there to be no trace of the murderer or Asmodean's body, you can rule out anything other than a supernatural occurance. For a supernatural occurance at that range you can almost guarantee that Aviendha would have noticed it barring it being the TP of which we had no current users. This leaves no way for the murder to have occured so obviously Asmodean didn't die.

 

Your grasping at straws and you must know it yourself.

 

Edit: Barring the TP or Saidin. And no viable suspects would have used Saidin cause there arival would have alerted Rand as Gateways are easily sensed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also' date=' how do you know that Graendel was not lying? You dont' think she'd lie to another Forsaken?

 

And assuming that's all true, how do you know she didn't make a pit stop, run into asmodean, kill him, then go on to her meeting to find Moggy not there.

 

Where are these assumptions coming from?

J[/quote']

 

Sure she'd lie to another Forsaken. But, only about something that could not be disproved. In order for her to lie about there being a planned meeting, she'd have to know that Moggy is a captive. The DO doesn't even know that and he's got better intel than anybody on the planet.

 

Now you're inventing a pitstop in Caemlyn? Why there? Since she can Travel anywhere in the blink of an eye, why not back to homebase? Why go to the one place where you know the big cheese is paranoid about attack and betrayal and risk getting nuked just because you opened a gateway?

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Dark One's intel isn't really that good.

 

The Lord of Chaos, Prologue "The First Message", Page 15, Demandred PoV.

 

He was never sure how much the Great Lord know of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as be knowledge. But he had no doubt what the Great Lord wanted to hear.

[Bob T Dwarf]

He's facing down an intersecting hallway at right angles to the garden. He's stepped most of the way through the doorway. There's the door into the garden between them besides. How are they going to hear anything less than a full-throuted shout?