one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

We also don't know that there was wine in that room. Just that Asmodean was looking for some.

[the dude]

[bela is a recurring character. She's the ONLY horse that we see on a regular basis. Furthermore' date= it is quite likely that she's both a ninja and a pirate.

 

NO NO NO NO NO NO! ninjas canNOT be pirates, and vice versa. that's just ridiculous. it's insulting even.

 

ninjas and pirates are sworn enemies. they are born hating each other. might as well say she's a unicorn and a pegasus, two horse-species that we all know genetically hate each other.

 

marak, where's your head? c'mon. let's at least TRY to be serious, ok?

[Guest Majsju]

ninjas and pirates are sworn enemies. they are born hating each other. might as well say she's a unicorn and a pegasus' date=' two horse-species that we all know genetically hate each other.

 

marak, where's your head? c'mon. let's at least TRY to be serious, ok?[/quote']

 

And yet, one day there will be a half-ninja, half-pirate, trying to unite them. You know, like in Underworld, sort of :D

[the dude]

and i will be right there to SMASH said abomination from the FACE OF EXISTENCE.

[Guest Egwene]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I do like your point about Bashere coming in with glasses and wine, Bob.

 

Did Bashere leave someone hiding in the cellar?

 

Or would anyone have had reason to follow Bashere? Because assuming it was the same wine cellar, than that's were that person would have been following him to.

[Guest Majsju]

Bashere as the killer basically requires him to be a darkfriend. And we haven't seen anything suggesting that, unless you count Min's viewing about a darkness, and that doesn't happen until COT.

[Guest Egwene]

What about someone following him.... has there been anything to suggest that one of our suspects might have had reason to follow Bashere?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Considering that was the first introduction to Bashere there really wouldn't have been any reason to. Having wine glasses and a flagon of wine doesn't mean he was anywhere near the room Asmodean went to as Asmodean was still looking for a pantry so he could get some wine. I don't think we ever had anything that says he found anything other than his killer. Poor sap.

 

Don't forget, Rand was observing Mat and Aviendha from a high window. Asmodean was with them at that point. The Enaila and Somara come in bringing soup. Rand gets down from the window goes to the table. Brief comment about the servants not being back yet, then the sound of Bashere coming gives Rand a reason to leave the soup untouched. The timing makes it impossible to have been Bashere. For someone to have been following Bashere, you are back to the question of why the person would stop and wait behind that now infamous door.

 

Edit: Ok. The timing doesn't make it impossible for it to have been Bashere, but it is unlikely the meeting with Rand would have been that short.

[Bob T Dwarf]

"... You need not fear I've brought a foreign army into Andor. Except for an escort of ten, the rest I left camped in Braem Wood, well north of any border Andor has claimed in two hundred years..."

 

So, Bashere rides into Caemlyn with an escort of ten, but he's the only one who comes to the Throne Room.

 

Say, two or three to hold the horses... that means seven or eight accompanied him into the palace. They're not with him when he strolls into the Throne Room, so it could be any of those ten.

[Paradoxic]

Regarding Bashere... How would Asmodean recognize him or, better yet, one of his soldiers? Why would Asmodean react as he did to that person? What reason would Bashere have had to have Asmodean killed? How did he have the power-wielding Forsaken killed before he could channel a spark (which he evidently did not do because Rand would have gone super-paranoid over feeling a man channel anywhere within 10 leagues of Caemlyn at that time). How did Bashere/Bashere's soldier know that Asmodean would wander into just that specific random location (I'm fine having Asmodean run into someone at random that would kill him, just not running into someone looking to actively assassinate him in a planned hit).

 

We have no reason, not even a faint one, to assume Bashere evil. The dark aura Min sees in CoT is because of what happened to his wife and what he'll do in order to protect her in the future (points nicely to betrayal of some sort).

 

We also have no, none, not even a fever dream of an assumption, to think it was Bashere because, at the MOMENT of Asmodean's death, we didn't know about Bashere.

 

You have a pinch more backing to argue that it was Taim because at least we know he is evil and has connections with the Forsaken.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aaahhh, but we did know about Bashere. He'd just been in the Throne Room talking to Rand, while sharing some wine. It's the vignette immediately after that when Asmo is killed.

 

Bashere, or one of his escort, found that wine and those goblets somewhere within the palace. Who's to say that person wasn't in the process of retrieving more for their own consumption.

 

Bashere and his escort are the only known outsiders to be in the palace at the time of the murder.

[Guest Majsju]

And that one person in Bashere's escort was not only a darkfriend, high enough on the ladder to not only have met Asmo, but also have been granted the knowledge that Asmo was a betrayer, and also being able to channel...

 

Could have happened if this had been a book by Goodkind, but...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Not to mention that the Aiel wouldn't have allowed anyone who had just arrived with Bashere anywhere near Rand at the time. It is surprising enough that they allowed Bashere near Rand. The would have been keeping a very close eye on Bashere's men though as they were "wetlanders" and therefore without honor and not to be trusted.

[Paradoxic]

Not to mention that the Aiel wouldn't have allowed anyone who had just arrived with Bashere anywhere near Rand at the time. It is surprising enough that they allowed Bashere near Rand. The would have been keeping a very close eye on Bashere's men though as they were "wetlanders" and therefore without honor and not to be trusted.

 

I was going to post something almost identical to that, cwestervelt. I agree that they'd never have been allowed free reign of the palace... they would have been intercepted at the entrance and led, en mass, to the palace where only Bashere was allowed to enter.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You guys assume almost as much as the characters in the books... and we all know how their assumptions work out.

 

First assumption: The killer channeled. Rand would have detected either a man or a woman chaneling from only a floor above.

 

Second assumption: There were Aiel guards. The Aiel were off hunting down Trollocs and Myrddraal. Enaila and Somara were feeling left out.

 

Third assumption: Aiel guards would have kept anyone out. From the time of the Drakhar attack in the Waste, through the end of KoD, Rand's Aiel guards have been totally ineffectual. Aes Sedai walk in unannounced and unchallenged. Sea Folk walk in unannounced and unchallenged. Assassins walk in unannounced and unchallenged. Damn near anybody wandering down the hall seems to be welcome to walk into wherever Rand is, at any time, for any purpose. They let the circle of thirteen in. Let them shield Rand. Let them stuff him in a box. Let them carry him out again. As guards, they're not even a good screen door.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You guys assume almost as much as the characters in the books... and we all know how their assumptions work out.

 

First assumption: The killer channeled. Rand would have detected either a man or a woman chaneling from only a floor above.

 

Second assumption: There were Aiel guards. The Aiel were off hunting down Trollocs and Myrddraal. Enaila and Somara were feeling left out.

 

Third assumption: Aiel guards would have kept anyone out. From the time of the Drakhar attack in the Waste' date=' through the end of KoD, Rand's Aiel guards have been totally ineffectual. Aes Sedai walk in unannounced and unchallenged. Sea Folk walk in unannounced and unchallenged. Assassins walk in unannounced and unchallenged. Damn near anybody wandering down the hall seems to be welcome to walk into wherever Rand is, at any time, for any purpose. They let the circle of thirteen in. Let them shield Rand. Let them stuff him in a box. Let them carry him out again. As guards, they're not even a good screen door.[/quote']

 

If the killer didn't channel how could any one else kill Asmodean and dispose of the body and clean up the crime scene so thouroughly that no one even knew he was dead. Rand wouldn't have sensed someone channelling in another part of the Palace unless it was really strong. Plus if Rand sensed a woman channel, he would have figured it was Aviendha. He knew she was a channeller and nearby.

 

At this point, when have we have not seen at least 20 Aiel guards around Rand in any hazardous situation. Fighting was still going on in Caemlyn, the Maidens already shamed themselves once by leaving Rand, they aren't going to do it again.

 

The Draghkar attack in the waste came in the middle of a Trolloc attack and at least 1 Aiel died to them. Also draghkar can fly so they can get around the guards a little easier. Plus it was Aviendha, one of your worthless Aiel, who killed one of the them.

 

Why would Aes Sedai get challenged doing what they already had been doing. Don't forget, only a couple of them were visibly Aes Sedai, the others were all too new. The guards would have needed to be channellers themselves to realize they weren't servants.

 

Most assassins (if not all) that got close were either Gray Men, or they got close because Rand was being stupid and trying to leave his guards behind.

[Paradoxic]

The only people who walk in unannounced are Wise Women, Aes Sedai, Sea Folk, and Grey Men. The first three have special reasons, the last have a special quality. No where on that list is "random armed-and-armored wetland guards of some random guy they have never seen before".

[Bob T Dwarf]

If the killer didn't channel how could any one else kill Asmodean and dispose of the body and clean up the crime scene so thouroughly that no one even knew he was dead.

 

Good question. Jordan is going to have a hard time explaining it' date=' I certainly can't. Consider that Rand senses Sammael opening a gateway partway across the city of Illian. How did the killer get rid of the body without a gateway?

Rand wouldn't have sensed someone channelling in another part of the Palace unless it was really strong. Plus if Rand sensed a woman channel, he would have figured it was Aviendha. He knew she was a channeller and nearby.

 

And he would have assumed that Aviendha was channeling simply for her own amusement??? If he'd sensed any channeling he would have been instantly alarmed and gone to find out why. The Aiel are still out mopping up Myrddraal and Trollocs. Any channeling is likely to be at great need, and a very strong indication of the nearby presence of further enemies.

At this point' date=' when have we have not seen at least 20 Aiel guards around Rand in any hazardous situation. Fighting was still going on in Caemlyn, the Maidens already shamed themselves once by leaving Rand, they aren't going to do it again.[/quote']

 

...He paused to make a leg and bow slightly, handling the curved sword at his hip gracefully despite the fact that incongruously he carried two silver goblets in one hand and a sealed pottery jar in the other.

 

"Forgive my intrusion," he said, "but there was no one [sic] to announce me..."

 

Rand is quite without any guard force.

[Guest cwestervelt]

"No one to announce me" doesn't mean no guards were around. It can simply mean the guards allowed Bashere to go on alone after having searched him and knowing there were two other Aiel already with Rand. That gave 3 on 1 against Bashere. Barring Bashere having some serious whoop-ass that it would basically mean a dead Bashere should things go bad.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, but you can't assume a guard force when the character specifically states that he found nobody around.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Sorry' date=' but you can't assume a guard force when the character specifically states that he found nobody around.[/quote']

 

For that matter, you can't assume that Bashere's men were at the palace only that they were in Caemlyn, but his comments also imply having been in Caemlyn for awhile. "In truth, I rode to Caemlyn to speak to Morgase, but I was put off by Lord Gaebril's toadies -- King Gaebril, I should say?" If he had been getting put off, he couldn't have just arived.

 

Anyway, I'm getting tired of splitting hairs. If you want to believe Bashere was involved, that is your business.

[BenTGaidin]

If the killer didn't channel how could any one else kill Asmodean and dispose of the body and clean up the crime scene so thouroughly that no one even knew he was dead.

 

Good question. Jordan is going to have a hard time explaining it' date=' I certainly can't.[/quote']

 

 

Simple - It was Ishy using the True Power, which is undetectable by anyone else. *grins*

 

 

Ben T-Gaidin

[Alys Kinch]

*using mommy voice* bashere is out of the running anyway, so hush!

[Guest Egwene]

I don't believe Bashere did it. But it is interesting how many odd details come to light the moment you focus on him. Could he be a lead to the killer?

 

At the beginning of FoH Danelle is drawing attention to the Borderlanders. Now she seems a hot candidate for being Mesaana. If she is that well informed about what Bashere is up to, wouldn't she know about his impending meeting with Rand?

 

... and what implication does this have?

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, I really want Bashere to be one of the good guys, but...

 

A major battle is still in the process of being fought. Bashere is not out for a solitary stroll on a quiet summer day. He has his escort with him.

 

In talking about how bad things have become for the good guys, Jordan specifically mentions how badly out-of-place the Borderland Armies are. And, what's the cause of that?

 

"I have read The Karaethon Cycle," Bashere said. Putting the goblets under his arem for amoment, he broke the wax seal on the jar and filled them with wine. "More importantly, Queen Tenobia has read the Prophecies too. I cannot speak for Kandor, or Arafel, or Shienar. I believe they will come to you - not a child in the Borderlands but knows the Shadow waits in the Blight to descend on us - but I cannot speak for them." Enaila eyed the goblet he handed her suspiciously, but she climbed the stairs to had it to Rand. " In truth," Bashere continued, "I cannot even speak for Saldaea. Tenobias rules; I am only her general. But I think once I send a fast rider to her with a message, the return will be that Saldaea marches with the Dragon Reborn. In the meantime, I offer you my services and those of nine thousand Saldaean horse."

 

Intentional, or not, Bashere's action in sending such a message serves the DO's purposes superbly.

 

Asmo arrived in Rand's orbit as part of a caravan of Saldaean peddlers headed by the DF Kadere.

 

Bashere and his Saldaeans are the only strangers provably present at the time and place of the murder. Bashere arrives carrying two silver goblets and an unopened jar of wine, obviously procured since he entered the palace. Asmo was going in search of wine when he was killed.

 

Those are the plain and simple facts.

 

Given those facts it is reasonable to conclude that Asmodean was known to DF Saldaeans, and DF Saldaeans were known to Asmodean.

 

Any competent policeman with that set of facts would, at the very least, look very closely at all the Saldaens and Bashere before dismissing any of them as suspects.