one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jedimuppet]

Your theory of balefire makes it possible to reduce the timestream effect to where it could become nothing more than a disintegration ray. Just make the target vanish at the point in time when the beam strikes. Very useful weapon. Nobody would abandon using that.

 

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying the pattern destruction relates to the physical destruction. If you can make it so it has no pattern destruction, it would have no physical destruction...So in order to destroy something really big, you have to risk a *lot* of pattern damage.

 

You dont' think that makes sense?

J

[Jedimuppet]

OK. If you guys want it to be balefire so badly' date=' prove who both had the capability and experience with "mini-balefire" and also prove they were present in Caemlyn when Asmo was killed.

 

Obvious also means provable. Nobody can make a provable case for any of the Forsaken. There are really only six people who can be proven to be in the palace at the time of the murder. ( Bashere's escort of ten is presumed, but not proven to be. )[/quote']

 

To get back on topic.

 

Anyone who knows how to use balefire is going to intuitively know how to modulate it (except maybe Rand, who needs pratice). All of the forsaken are eligible.

 

I'm not sure about your notions of provable, as you seem to advance your own suppositions as fact, but require proof for things that RJ pretty much spells out in the books.

 

Why do we have to know they were in the palace (and hence prove it) at the time of the murder? People can Travel for crying out loud.

 

I think it's incumbent on you to prove it *coudldn't* have been a forsaken, as that is a more tenuous position than that it was a forsaken. I'm open to logic, but not creating too many things. I believe it's something we can figure out without putting too many events into motion that we haven't seen.

 

As I said before, I think it's Graendel because Rand wouldn't have sensed her, she has the power to get there, and the motivation.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

The less strength the channeller puts into the Balefire the less time is burned out of the pattern. We have evidence of this.

 

In Rhuidean, when Rand balefires the Darkhound, we only removes a few seconds from the pattern. Mat's memory is that they hound was almost completely through the door, but the door only has a small whole.

 

From The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 6 "Gateways" page 119.

 

"Mat remembers seeing one of the Darkhounds chew through the door, but there is no opening, now. If it had slavered on him as much as he remembers, he would have been deard before I could reach him. For as far back as you destroyed the creature, whatever it did during that time no longer happened. Only the memories remain for those who say or experienced it. Only what it did before is real, now. A few tooth holes in the door, and one drop of saliva on Mat's arm."

 

This would clearly indicate that the reversing of the affects is a result of the amount of power put into the Balefire, not the potential of the channeller. Unless you want to argue that Rand's battle with Rahvin didn't take any more time than for the Darkhound to finish chewing through the door, that is.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All the concepts here are proving REALLY difficult for us all to express. :(

 

You risk a lot of Pattern damage if you decide to destroy an entire city all at once. But there are other ways to destroy a city. Block-by-block. Building-by-building. You could simply balefire one key structural component in each building. Down they fall and no more city.

 

My point being that during the War of Power, both sides determined independently that the problem was the weapon, not merely the way in which the weapon was being used.

 

You can make both firecrackers and Bunker Busters by simply varying the amount of explosive used. There does not appear to be anything comparable when it comes to balefire.

[Jedimuppet]

All the concepts here are proving REALLY difficult for us all to express. :(

 

You risk a lot of Pattern damage if you decide to destroy an entire city all at once. But there are other ways to destroy a city. Block-by-block. Building-by-building. You could simply balefire one key structural component in each building. Down they fall and no more city.

 

My point being that during the War of Power' date=' both sides determined independently that the problem was the weapon, not merely the way in which the weapon was being used.

 

You can make both firecrackers and Bunker Busters by simply varying the amount of explosive used. There does not appear to be anything comparable when it comes to balefire.[/quote']

 

I think we're understanding each other just fine; it's just that I think that your position is contradicted by RJ. I also think the quote from Cwestervelt also disproves your position. The more you use, the worse the damage. I'm willing to go so far as say that RJ has out and out said it, but we dont' have to talk about it any longer if you don't want to.

 

What about my response to your post about proving it's a Forsaken?

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Concerning the affects of balefire on the Pattern.

 

Even burning a second or so out of the Pattern is enough to restore a person who was dead to life.

Also, heavy use of balefire would add up. Take when Rand was using the finger thin balefire against the Trollocs and Myrddraal.

 

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 55, Page 675:

Not daring to hope or think, he channeled. Shafts of balefire leaped from his hands as fast as he could weave them, narrower than his little finger, precise and cut off as soon as they struck. They were much less powerful than the one he had used against Rahvin, than any he had used against Rahvin, but he could not risk one slicing through to those trapped in the center of all those Trollocs. It made little difference. The first-struck Myrddraal seemed to reverse colors, become a white-clad black shape, then it was drifing motes that vanished as its horse fled madly. Trollocs, Myrddraal, every one that turned toward him went the same, and then he began carving into the backs of those still facing the other way, so a continuous haze of sparkling dust seemed to fill the air, renewed as it evaporated.

 

He kills a lot of Myrddraal and Trollocs in that confrontation. Even if only a second or so for each one gets unravelled, that adds up to a lot of seconds. The Pattern needs to try and repair itself each time, and correct for the actions that no longer occurred.

[Jedimuppet]

Concerning the affects of balefire on the Pattern.

 

Even burning a second or so out of the Pattern is enough to restore a person who was dead to life.

Also' date=' heavy use of balefire would add up. Take when Rand was using the finger thin balefire against the Trollocs and Myrddraal.

 

[u']The Fires of Heaven[/u] Chapter 55, Page 675:

Not daring to hope or think, he channeled. Shafts of balefire leaped from his hands as fast as he could weave them, narrower than his little finger, precise and cut off as soon as they struck. They were much less powerful than the one he had used against Rahvin, than any he had used against Rahvin, but he could not risk one slicing through to those trapped in the center of all those Trollocs. It made little difference. The first-struck Myrddraal seemed to reverse colors, become a white-clad black shape, then it was drifing motes that vanished as its horse fled madly. Trollocs, Myrddraal, every one that turned toward him went the same, and then he began carving into the backs of those still facing the other way, so a continuous haze of sparkling dust seemed to fill the air, renewed as it evaporated.

 

He kills a lot of Myrddraal and Trollocs in that confrontation. Even if only a second or so for each one gets unravelled, that adds up to a lot of seconds. The Pattern needs to try and repair itself each time, and correct for the actions that no longer occurred.

 

Of course, I dont' think anyone is suggesting the effect is not cumulative.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

The less strength the channeller puts into the Balefire the less time is burned out of the pattern. We have evidence of this.

 

In Rhuidean' date=' when Rand balefires the Darkhound, we only removes a few seconds from the pattern. Mat's memory is that they hound was almost completely through the door, but the door only has a small whole.

[/quote']

 

We don't know how long he removed. It may have been mere seconds or it may have been a couple of minutes. Those doors were bronze clad. Even a Darkhound takes awhile to chew through that. Rand is still a new caster. All casters grow in power for the first few years after they begin casting. Men seem to make quantum jumps at irregular intervals until they finally reach their full power.

 

How much stronger is Rand by the end of FOH than he is at the beginning? Nobody but Jordan really knows, but he seems to rewind about a half hour with Rahvin.

[Guest cwestervelt]

My point being that during the War of Power' date=' both sides determined independently that the problem was the weapon, not merely the way in which the weapon was being used.[/quote']

 

J, it sounded like Bob was arguing just that, or at least coming very close. To me, it seemed like he was arguing that if you could tone it down and only burn about a second or so out of the pattern, then you didn't have a problem.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The less strength the channeller puts into the Balefire the less time is burned out of the pattern. We have evidence of this.

 

In Rhuidean' date=' when Rand balefires the Darkhound, we only removes a few seconds from the pattern. Mat's memory is that they hound was almost completely through the door, but the door only has a small whole.

[/quote']

 

We don't know how long he removed. It may have been mere seconds or it may have been a couple of minutes. Those doors were bronze clad. Even a Darkhound takes awhile to chew through that. Rand is still a new caster. All casters grow in power for the first few years after they begin casting. Men seem to make quantum jumps at irregular intervals until they finally reach their full power.

 

How much stronger is Rand by the end of FOH than he is at the beginning? Nobody but Jordan really knows, but he seems to rewind about a half hour with Rahvin.

 

I'm not even going to bother anymore. No matter what evidence is presented, and no matter what the subject, you aren't going to accept it anyway.

[Guest Egwene]

I thought that cities were destroyed, because if you hit for axample a stonemason, than every stone he ever laid, would dissapear. Hit the architect, any building he made the plans for...etc.etc..

[Jedimuppet]

I thought that cities were destroyed' date=' because if you hit for axample a stonemason, than every stone he ever laid, would dissapear. Hit the architect, any building he made the plans for...etc.etc..[/quote']

 

There's probably merit to that point of view. I think I'm about done with this side topic as I'm pretty sure we've exhausted it, so I'll sum up:

 

Balefire is destructive, both physically and to the pattern. The more power you use, the worse those effects. Destruction to the pattern is measured in how far back the effects reach, while physical destruction correlates to the size and damage caused.

If you were to somehow fire BF that did no damage phsycially, it would do no damage to the pattern. I dont' think it's possible to have zero strength balefire though.

 

Using a lot of a low setting BF would be very costly (most likely), and a little of a lot. RJ told us through Moiraine and the Forsaken how it works. I don't have books with me to look through, but it's all there.

 

Rand's strenght in the power as far as BTD's last comment goes is irrelevant, since he obviously wasn't using all his strength.

 

I'm with Cwestervelt, let's talk about something else.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jedi, I'm not saying it has to be anybody.

 

What I'm saying is there are only six people anybody can prove were in the palace at the time of the murder. There's a strong possibility, but no proof, that there may have been up to ten more.

 

That's the entirety of our known suspect list. Putting anybody else there requires a lot of conjecture.

 

What we know from subsequent events is that Graendal was not there. She was waiting for Moghedien at a pre-arranged meeting place.

[Jedimuppet]

Jedi' date=' I'm not saying it [i']has[/i] to be anybody.

 

What I'm saying is there are only six people anybody can prove were in the palace at the time of the murder. There's a strong possibility, but no proof, that there may have been up to ten more.

 

That's the entirety of our known suspect list. Putting anybody else there requires a lot of conjecture.

 

What we know from subsequent events is that Graendal was not there. She was waiting for Moghedien at a pre-arranged meeting place.

 

You know these people can Travel, right? I would argue that we're pretty dman sure he was killed with BF via a pretty nice hint from RJ in the description of the death, and that either the TP or female of half of the source was used, because Rand didn't know.

 

I don't feel like trying to prove who was where in a world were people teleport.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

I thought that cities were destroyed' date=' because if you hit for axample a stonemason, than every stone he ever laid, would dissapear. Hit the architect, any building he made the plans for...etc.etc..[/quote']

 

Not any. Just those things he'd done for the length of time the balefire affected.

 

If a stonemason was balefired in the midst of raising a wall, the wall would be shortened by the length of time affected. Maybe one course. Maybe part of a course. Maybe only one block. Maybe that whole wall, but not any wall he'd built previous to that. etc.

[Jedimuppet]

I thought that cities were destroyed' date=' because if you hit for axample a stonemason, than every stone he ever laid, would dissapear. Hit the architect, any building he made the plans for...etc.etc..[/quote']

 

Not any. Just those things he'd done for the length of time the balefire affected.

 

If a stonemason was balefired in the midst of raising a wall, the wall would be shortened by the length of time affected. Maybe one course. Maybe part of a course. Maybe only one block. Maybe that whole wall, but not any wall he'd built previous to that. etc.

 

I thinks he was referring to mentionings of using so much of the power that the effect covered the entire life of the person, so that he had never existed.

 

In such a catastrophic event, you would see the sorts of things Egwene is suggesting. Also remember, he'd have no children, and the unwraveling would be exponential.

J

[Guest Egwene]

On a different topic alltogether.... don't know if you guys have seen that there is a new blog entry. Unfortunately it isn't good news. Anyway I let you read it rather than recap.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't feel like trying to prove who was where in a world were people teleport.

J

 

Well, you need to at least advance a plausible argument for how it could have been any of the Forsaken.

 

Even if she could somehow gate in and then balefire Asmo without being detected... a very BIG if, it can't be Graendal because she was already trying to meet Moghedien elsewhere.

 

We know it isn't Sammael both because Rand would have detected anything he did at such close range, and because he doesn't know Asmo is dead when he next meets with Graendal. He'd have no reason to deceive Graendal about that. In fact he'd probably brag about it if he'd been the killer.

 

Both Lanfear and Moiraine require the connivance of the Finns to have done the deed.

 

Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana haven't been introduced yet... unless Mesaana is Danelle.

 

There is no other Forsaken who is currently alive enough to be active. There isn't even evidence that any of the dead Forsaken have been transmigrated yet.

[Jedimuppet]

On a different topic alltogether.... don't know if you guys have seen that there is a new blog entry. Unfortunately it isn't good news. Anyway I let you read it rather than recap.

 

That's horrible news. I'm not really sure what to say to that except someone should start a thread about it, and as much as I love the books, he's got to look after himself first. I hope for the best for him.

J

[Jedimuppet]

I don't feel like trying to prove who was where in a world were people teleport.

J

 

Well' date=' you need to at least advance a plausible argument for how it could have been any of the Forsaken.

 

Even if she could somehow gate in and then balefire Asmo without being detected... a very BIG if, it can't be Graendal because she was already trying to meet Moghedien elsewhere.

 

We know it isn't Sammael both because Rand would have detected anything he did at such close range, and because he doesn't know Asmo is dead when he next meets with Graendal. He'd have no reason to deceive Graendal about that. In fact he'd probably brag about it if he'd been the killer.

 

Both Lanfear and Moiraine require the connivance of the Finns to have done the deed.

 

Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana haven't been introduced yet... unless Mesaana is Danelle.

 

There is no other Forsaken who is currently alive enough to be active. There isn't even evidence that any of the dead Forsaken have been transmigrated yet.[/quote']

 

I think it was Graendel, and I'm not aware of any commitments that make it impossible.

J

[Guest Egwene]

Jedi, I think the best we can do is carry on giving RJ something to grin about.

 

To that effect, I'd like to try and see if we could make a case for Mesaana. Or are their things like RJ said 'no' to keep her out of the equasion?

[Guest cwestervelt]

On a different topic alltogether.... don't know if you guys have seen that there is a new blog entry. Unfortunately it isn't good news. Anyway I let you read it rather than recap.

 

"Not good news" is a bit of an understatement. I just read the letter posted on "Locus". Here's the link for anyone that wants to read it.

 

http://www.locusmag.com/2006/Features/03JordanLetter.html

 

I know a people (my eldest brother is one) that have undergone the type of treatment he talks about. Let's hope and pray that he is in the group that goes into remission.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Jedi' date=' I think the best we can do is carry on giving RJ something to grin about.

 

To that effect, I'd like to try and see if we could make a case for Mesaana. Or are their things like RJ said 'no' to keep her out of the equasion?[/quote']

 

Laughter is one of the best medecines for a reason.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I agree. Anything that can make you smile helps when battling an illness.

 

I haven't seen any such prohibition on Mesaana.

 

First we need to establish that Mesaana is Danelle though, since it's not supposed to be anybody we haven't met.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I agree. Anything that can make you smile helps when battling an illness.

 

I haven't seen any such prohibition on Mesaana.

 

First we need to establish that Mesaana is Danelle though' date=' since it's not supposed to be anybody we haven't met.[/quote']

 

Do you have a source for the info that it isn't someone we haven't met? I keep looking and can't find any.