one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Asmo was searching for a way to the pantries so that he could find some wine. There is nothing that says he found what he was looking for. And there is nothing that says he actually had his men at the palace with him. The escorted him to Caemlyn, but that was before the battle started. Considering the mentallity of the Saldeans we've seen, Bashere probably thought walking alone through a fight between Aiel and Trollocs was the best fun in the world.

 

Bashere was chasing Taim on orders of Tenobia. Tenobia had been out of sight for quite some time before she turned up in the Black Hills with the other Borderlanders. A message from Bashere would have a hard time getting to Saldea in time to pull her, and all the other Borderlanders that far down all ready. And she seemed quite pissed that Bashere was aiding Rand during that meeting too and it sounds more like rumors than a message that told her about it.

 

As for Kadere being Saldean, I don't think he had been there in a long time. He seemed to treat Saldea as a fond memory of something he couldn't go back to. Even if he did start out from there, you are assuming that Lanfear and Asmodean joined up with him there. It's likely that they Gated him into the Waste, but there is no indication of their point of origin.

 

All Kadere really knew about Asmodean was that he stood well above Kadere. He didn't even know who Asmodean was.

 

Given those facts it is reasonable to conclude that Asmodean was known to DF Saldaeans, and DF Saldaeans were known to Asmodean.

 

Any competent policeman with that set of facts would, at the very least, look very closely at all the Saldaens and Bashere before dismissing any of them as suspects

 

That is some racial profiling. Asmodean was with Darkfriends from Saldea. These people are from Saldea. They must be Darkfriends.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bah! It has nothing to do with race.

 

Kadere merely establishes a link between Asmodean and the network of Saldaean DF's.

 

Bashere is the Marshal-General of Saldaea. He doesn't go to the head without an escort.

 

Who are the people known to be in the palace at the time of the murder?

 

Rand, Enaila, and Somara in the Throne Room.

Aviendha and Mat in the Garden.

Bashere and an unknown number ( but, no more than 10 ) Saldaeans.

 

Nobody else. Placing anyone else in the palace at the time of the murder requires massive and unprovable speculation.

 

Of the people known to be in the palace, who has both a motive to murder Asmo and the opportunity to do so?

 

Not Rand.

Not Enaila.

Not Somara.

Not Mat.

Not Aviendha.

 

That leaves only one or more of the Saldaeans.

 

Find me anybody else who can be proven to be there. Proven, not just speculated to be.

[havoc110]

"massive and unprovable"?

 

perhaps the latter, but perhaps not the former.

 

The forsaken, at least the Rahvin, Lanfear, Sammael, Graendal axis, have previously Travelled to the Royal Palace.

(prologue, FoH). Presumably they can do so again.

 

So you stacking some unknown group of Saldean's motives against those of another Forsaken? Those playing the "CBS Survivor: Nae'blis Edition"?

 

Of that axis, only Sammy and Graendal are left at the time of murder. Sammy doesn't know what has happened, and Graendal just invents a story "Rand killed him" which she could not possibly know as fact. Also I think there had been speculation amongst the Forsaken that Asmo was teaching Rand, so why would Rand toast his teacher? But Sammy did not question Graendal's story, because Graendal tells Sammy that he is now at the top of Rand's list.

 

A lot of people do a lot of moving about while "off camera". I'm not saying eliminate Bashere, or for that matter, some anonymous Saldeans. But for some reason you are saying that the Forsaken should be eliminated because it takes "massive, unprovable" speculation to place them in the Palace.

 

It seems everyone has a unique threshold where they consider a suspect "officially" eliminated. For example: I don't think it was Lanfear or Moiraine, but there are a lot of people that not only refuse to eliminate them, but keep them on as their "prime suspect".

[Guest cwestervelt]

Ok. If after this, you still want to hold to a connection between Bashere's arrival in Caemlyn and Asmodean's death, I'm not going to try and disuade you. A connection between Bashere's men and Kadere would be pretty remote and the odds of them knowing that Asmodean was travelling with Kadere are even smaller.

 

1) There is nothing to indicate that anyone in Kadere's party other than himself was Saldean. There were other Darkfriends, but the last had slipped away 2 days before Rand went to Caemlyn. Since Kadere didn't even know who Asmodean was, it is unlikely any of the others would have either. There is also no reason to put one of them in Caemlyn.

 

From Kadere PoV, FoH Chapter 52 "Choices" page 625: "If only he knew who to trust; The last of his drivers who had sworn the oaths had vanished two days ago, very likely on one of the grain barges." Once Kadere dies, no DF who was with him knew Rand went to Caemlyn.

 

2) Kadere did not leave Saldea recently but, most likely several years before.

 

From Kadere PoV, FoH Chapter 29 "Memories of Saldaea" page 344: "At least Cairhien was cooler than the Waste. Someday he hoped to return to Saldaea, to walk in the garden where his sister Teodora had taught him his first letters and numbers. He missed her as much as he did Saldaea, the deep winters when trees burst from sap freezing and the only way to travel was by snowshoes or skis. In these southlands, spring felt like summer, and summer lie the Pit of Doom."

 

That is not the type of reminiscing that someone who has only just left would do. That is more indicative of someone who has been gone a long time. Even the title of the chapter is indicative of something long lost.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Of that axis, only Sammy and Graendal are left at the time of murder. Sammy doesn't know what has happened, and Graendal just invents a story "Rand killed him" which she could not possibly know as fact. Also I think there had been speculation amongst the Forsaken that Asmo was teaching Rand, so why would Rand toast his teacher? But Sammy did not question Graendal's story, because Graendal tells Sammy that he is now at the top of Rand's list.

 

Graendal could easily have known that Asmodean was dead without any involvement in the dead itself. Demandred went to Shayol Ghul where the Dark One told him that Asmodean had died the final death. After that Demandred passes on the DO's orders to Messana and Graendal. He states the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" line and the paragraph finally ends with "Then he told them the rest." In otherwords, he told them the rest of what the DO told him. That would likely include the fact that a "traitor" was dead. Graendal is just assuming Rand did it. It's no different than when Sammael states that "Lanfear sent them" when talking about the trollocs in the Stone of Tear.

[Bob T Dwarf]

How do Lanfear and Asmo hook up with Kadere in the first place?

 

We don't really know, but if you were a Forsaken needing to operate in unfamiliar territory, wouldn't you want some allies/toadies who were familiar with the customs? So, what do you do? I'd go to The Office of Lord of the Dark Intelligence and say, "Who ya got in the Borderlands who's reliable?" They'd point me to some high level toady. I'd then contact him and outline my requirements. He/she or some level of subordinate would then hook me up with Kadere.

 

One thing we know for certain by the time Asmo buys it is that the DO has operatives sitting on all the power blocs and major factions. Carridin and Ingtar to name two obvious examples beyond the Forsaken themselves. Bashere is a major player. The DO has somebody sitting on him too.

 

So, Asmo who is operating without any disguise, and Lanfear who is disguised, get put in contact with Mr. Big in the Borderlands Baddies Anonymous hierarchy. Along the way there is no telling how many DF's they also come in contact with. Asmo becomes a known face. Asmo also gets to know at least a few of the local Baddies.

 

Come the Prologue to tFoH, Lanfear finally lets it be known that Asmo is now working for Rand. Everybody knows what that means and sets the Baddies on Asmo's trail.

 

Asmo walks through that door all innocent and thirsty and wham, he's face-to-face with one of the Borderland Baddies he's met. Bye-bye Asmo. Haul the body out and burn it with the Trollocs.

 

Certainly no more far-fetched than any of the other theories. Especially when you consider that, other than the people with Rand, the Saldaeans are the only people proven to be in the palace.

[Paradoxic]

While this speculation is very expansive, it has two major holes in it (which I've stated before, but lets review in order of importance).

 

1) How did this Saldaen Assassin know to wait in that specific random room? The text explicitly indicates that Asmodean picks a room at random.

 

2) How did this Saldaen Assassin kill Asmodean before Asmodean could channel? While it would not be impossible, we know Asmodean would have had enough power to do simple things with air (remember what Rand says about Asmodean not using just his sword during the fight). We also know, from basically everyone one of the major channelers, that they can go from zero to stopping a blade mid-flight in a blink of the eye (such as when Bashere throws the dagger at Rand).

 

Now, the minor issues: The person Asmodean ran into was not some random hired hand. This was someone Asmodean KNEW. Futher more, he knew that running into this person meant his death. Thus it wasn't some random Saldaen Assassin.

 

Also, I would argue that every communication between Asmodean and those he talked to to find Kadere was done through messages. From what we know of the darkfriend networks, they are not big on the whole "meet me at the bar around 6 and I'll introduce you to some friends I know"... Darkfriends have all kinds of special signs that indicate rank. All he had to do was send a letter to the right person to find out about Kadere (who he was, where he was going, and where Asmodean could intercept him); then he goes to Kadere with Lanfear, they flash the super special signs and Kadere gives them whatever they want.

 

Yes, there were random Saldaens in the palace at that time. However, these Saldaens had been in Andor for how long? How would any of those Saldaens have been involved in the Kadere line? How did the Saldaen Assassin get into the right closet ahead of Asmodean? How did he kill a man who has been channeling for nearly his extremely long life? Why did Asmodean react to this Assassin with such surprise and as if he knew the person? Why did Asmodean react to this Assassin as if he knew that meeting this person meant death? Why would anyone intuitively assume it was the Saldaen guards?

 

In fact, all but 2 of the above questions must be answered in a satisfactory manner for Every suspect.

[Alys Kinch]

**As for Kadere being Saldean, I don't think he had been there in a long time. He seemed to treat Saldea as a fond memory of something he couldn't go back to. **

 

just for clairification, he flat out stated that he couldn't go back as he had exiled himself when he killed his sister becasue she had found out he was a dark friend.

[Bob T Dwarf]

True. Kadere could not go home again. But, he was recruited and operated within Saldaea for some time before he killed his sister. He would have been known to the Borderland Baddies hierarchy.

 

I'm not saying that the Saldaean Asmo may have run into was an assassin, or that he was laying in wait. What I'm saying is that word had gone out that Asmo aka Jasen Natael aka the gleeman traveling with Rand was on the hitlist and everybody should be looking for him. Most likely the Saldaean was simply coming back from the wine pantry and Asmo happened into him. He may have just been grabbing some loot. He could have just been sightseeing. I don't for a moment think it was a planned hit. Asmo just walked through the wrong door at the wrong time. He ran into a DF he'd met, and that DF, knowing Asmo was fair game, and being one of Bashere's well trained troops, killed him before Asmo could defend himself.

 

The most likely thing for Bashere to have done after they rode through the open gates and found the palace seemingly vacant and wide open is to say, "Spread out, and search the palace. Let's see if this place is as vacant as it looks. Stay alert, there could be Trollocs and Myrddraal about."

 

Now, you've got several, armed and alarmed, highly trained and experienced Saldaean knights wandering the place with weapons drawn and ready to kill anything that moves.

[Jedimuppet]

True. Kadere could not go home again. But' date=' he was recruited and operated within Saldaea for some time before he killed his sister. He would have been known to the Borderland Baddies hierarchy.

 

I'm not saying that the Saldaean Asmo may have run into was an assassin, or that he was laying in wait. What I'm saying is that word had gone out that Asmo aka Jasen Natael was on the hitlist and everybody should be looking for him. Most likely the Saldaean was simply coming back from the wine pantry and Asmo happened into him. He may have just been grabbing some loot. He could have just been sightseeing. I don't for a moment think it was a planned hit. Asmo just walked through the wrong door at the wrong time. He ran into a DF he'd met, and that DF, knowing Asmo was fair game, and being one of Bashere's well trained troops, killed him before Asmo could defend himself.

 

The most likely thing for Bashere to have done after they rode through the open gates and found the palace seemingly vacant and wide open is to say, "Spread out, and search the palace. Let's see if this place is as vacant as it looks. Stay alert, there could be Trollocs and Myrddraal about."

 

Now, you've got several, armed and alarmed, highly trained and experienced Saldaean knights wandering the place with weapons drawn and ready to kill anything that moves.[/quote']

 

That's an interesting take, and I have to admit that that hadn't occured to me as a possibility. The only thing that doesn't fit for me is the way that his words hung in the air after he died....that description seemed to indicate that balefire was used. I would be really surprised if a non-channeler killed him

J

[Alys Kinch]

unless they managed to take out his trachea or some other vital neck spot... i just feel the description should be different.

[Jedimuppet]

unless they managed to take out his trachea or some other vital neck spot... i just feel the description should be different.

 

It's only circumstantial, but RJ appeared to use a description similar to those he used when other baddies died from BF. It almost suggests they're dead before it happens, which goes along with the BF thing. I wouldn't expect a description of him dying from a neckstrike to be similar...I would expect something like crunching or gurling "you.."

J

[Alys Kinch]

that was the point. it is possible that he was trying to show that there may have been more to say, and it was cut off by a quick neck or lung shot. but the description would likely have been different. ending in no- or some gurgles. but with what we have, i don't think it was a non-channeler. see, i am really agreeing with you.

[Jedimuppet]

that was the point. it is possible that he was trying to show that there may have been more to say' date=' and it was cut off by a quick neck or lung shot. but the description would likely have been different. ending in no- or some gurgles. but with what we have, i don't think it was a non-channeler. see, i am really agreeing with you. [/quote']

 

I can be dense sometimes, but I suspected that you may have been.

J

[Guest Egwene]

nice to see you made i across Jedi!

 

Have you all considered that if it was someone travelling into the room, there would have been at least two occassions of channeling? One the gateway and two the balefire. If Rand had felt that, he would most certainly have gone to investigate...

[Alys Kinch]

consider that he may never have felt the balefire and also that we have no idea how far a man has to be before he can no longer feel a woman channel. we know he could feel a man make a gateway halfway across illian, but we have no such precident for a woman.

[Jedimuppet]

Hi Egwene; thanks for the welcome.

 

I dont' think a gate was used, because you have a delay, while the thing materializes. Asmodean's reaction seemed to suggest it was too fast for that. Now if you're suggesting the person had *already* gated in, that would work as far as time, but I feel that they surprised each other. I dont' think it was an ambush, and I think the person was already in that room for some reason.

 

That does bring up a good question, though. Would there have been a way for him to have been tracked? If so, I would revise my "It's not an ambush" stance. I suppose if someone *Needed* him dead, they could use TR's need based travel...Never thought of that before.

 

Ok I'm rambling; I have no idea who did it, just a few basic ideas on how it must have gone down (like the fact that I'm pretty sure BF was used).

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

The problem with it being a channeler is that for balefire or anything else to even possibly remain below Rand or Aviendha's detection threshold it would have to be a woman. That woman would need to channel on at least three occasions. Once to get in. Once to kill Asmo. Once to leave, or take the body away.

 

The only available female channeler who had motive was Graendal. She was waiting for Moghedien to show up for their planned meeting in T'A'R.

 

As to mundane means not being sufficient against a channeler like Asmo, remember that Vandene manages to put a knife through Careane's heart even after she's been wrapped up in air and shielded. And she's a fairly feeble old lady, not a warrior.

[Guest Egwene]

'need based travel'.. don't think we've considered that sofar. Of course we know who the expert is in Tel'aran'rhiod

 

Obviously, if someone had been there a while, that rule's out the theory of watching Asmo and only travelling there once it was obvious which way he was going. Which seems to be one of Graendal's suggested ways of getting there.

[Jedimuppet]

The problem with it being a channeler is that for balefire or anything else to even possibly remain below Rand or Aviendha's detection threshold it would have to be a woman. That woman would need to channel on at least three occasions. Once to get in. Once to kill Asmo. Once to leave' date=' or take the body away.

 

The only available female channeler who had motive was Graendal. She was waiting for Moghedien to show up for their planned meeting in T'A'R.

 

As to mundane means not being sufficient against a channeler like Asmo, remember that Vandene manages to put a knife through Careane's heart even after she's been wrapped up in air and shielded. And she's a fairly feeble old lady, not a warrior.[/quote']

 

I tend to agree it was Graendel...I'm not sure how much I want to bet that Rand necessarily knew what was going on with channeling in Caemlyn. How long after Rahvin/Rand's fight did this actually happen?

J

[Alys Kinch]

it doesn't really put mundane murder back in the picture. careane was right next to vandene. touching in fact.

[Alys Kinch]

how long? morning attack, mid afternoon murder, imho.

[Jedimuppet]

how long? morning attack' date=' mid afternoon murder, imho.[/quote']

 

Next we have to ask ourselves how much we're willing to bet that Rand would certainly have known that a man was channeling, and whether there are any ways to invert balefire while using it..

 

Just for the sake of completeness...As I said before, Graendel does seem the best suspect.

 

Also, I've noticed in this conversation that people tend to go back to one thing after disucssing something else.

 

Does anyone seriously think it's not reasonable to suspect BF, given the description of Asmo's death? I'm not saying it's for sure, but lacking evidence to the contrary, I'm going to take it as a clear hint that BF was used..(Alys, I know we already covered this, but it's in response to Bob's post). The question is not if mundane means would have been sufficient, but would they have resulted in the description we have. I feel with RJ, you have to parse carefully.

 

J

[Guest pheobe sedai]

:idea: it has to be either shadar haran or moridin.

 

i'd be willing to place my bet on moridin he most likely has asmodean's soul hanging around his neck along with lanfear does any one recall little cyndane or cyndi or whatever her name is?it is her highness (:roll: )lanfear herself.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Asmo steps through the door, takes one step and meets someone face-to-face. Recognition is instantaneous. So is death. There was no appreciable distance between killer and corpse.

 

I'd make it late morning attack. There was the rather extensive dustup on the Cairhein docks first. Probably early afternoon when Asmo was killed. Time enough between for Rand to get his nearest and dearest into the palace, for everybody to disperse to where we see them, for Asmo to get tired of playing for an unappreciative audience, for Enaila and Somara to learn that Rand hadn't eaten and find the kitchen, make soup, and bring it to the Throne Room.