one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Marak]

Yes' date=' it [i']could[/i] have been balefire. The line is:

The word still hung in the air when death took him.

 

It could not have been True Power, because TP isn't introduced until after the murder.

It couldn't have been balefire. Balefire goes BACKWARDS in time. Therefore, the word would not be hanging in the air.

[Marak]

Marak -

 

You obviously do not appreciate the value of a woman like Sheree J. Wilson. She would not put up with anything less than all of her man. Chuck Norris knows this. Thus' date=' he is not in any silly hallway in Caemlyn. This is [i']why[/i] he has Sheree J. Wilson in a miniskirt waiting back at the ranch, and you nor I don't.

 

I'll cede you that point. Chuck Norris still remains a viable candidate, however. He may not have actually committed the killing directly, but he could've put one of his roundhouse kicks into a trap, so it hit the next person coming through the doorway. He could've also put a picture of himself, poised, and ready to attack. This would obviously frighten Asmodean, even if it was only a picture.

 

 

It wouldn't work. The Time Trap TRANSCENDS time, and so exists in all times in Beta Zangulon. Therefore, Doctor Who could not have possibly dumped the body on the planet of the Zanguloids.

 

Besides, as we know, Bela is MORE omnipotent than Doctor Who, by virtue of having four stomachs. Therefore, she would've cancelled out his powers, and stopped his plan.

 

I still firmly support the Chuck Norris or Bela theories. At least they follow the direct evidence. For instance, if Doctor Who trapped Asmodean at that moment in time, why did he not do it earlier? And, as he regenerates, changing his appearance, Asmodean could not have possibly said "You?! No!", as, most likely, he would not recognize the good Doctor.

 

I rest my case. It's too damn heavy, and it's ticking for some reason...

[Graendals favourite]

:D . This has gone in a very nice direction now.

 

Mmm, I'm a bit tired now, so to the point.

 

I think the only assumption the ambush case needs is that the people in question act rationally.

 

Paradoxic, the 'ambush' and 'accidental encounter' scenarios aren't really that different, in the first one the meeting takes place by the garden, in the second behind the door.

 

But of course they are very different in that I start off by saying no accidental encounter would've resulted in Asmo's death in that fashion. I then tick off all but female forsaken because of that, so I think it's already done after that. But of course I'm very happy to know the 'accidental case' has proven Graendal has no trouble in being in Caemlyn.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Marak: It could be balefire. The word hanging in the air just implies that it would have to be very low strength balefire. Much like the kind Moiraine used against Bel'al.

[Marak]

Marak: It could be balefire. The word hanging in the air just implies that it would have to be very low strength balefire. Much like the kind Moiraine used against Bel'al.

 

Yes, but it'd have to be uberly low-strength balefire. And, when you look at it logically, the Chosen have THOUSANDS of possible ways of destroying someone without using balefire. Also, they'd probably be reluctant to use balefire against another Chosen, as it would deny the Great Lord his vengeance.

 

Furthermore, say "No!", in a fairly loud voice. The word isn't going to hang in the air for an entire second, if that. Maybe a third of a second, or half a second, if you're especially loud. Even Moiraine's balefire is more powerful than that.

[girl-in-the-army]

Ok Now I have it I have weighed the evedence thoughly, and I know who killed Asmo....it was the DO himself.... :D Check it out he knows Asmo is dead when demandred visits, he can presumably weild the true power which nobody can feel, so we dont have that issue, Asmo would have made do do in his pants at seeing him, and known his death was upon him, and the do could open a small door yank asmo through, torture murder main and kill him in his own sweet time while thoughly punishing him for going turncoat. It says right there that death took him and he is lord of the grave, so it is intuitivly obvious that "death" took him.....it says it right there on the page.....he was screaming no as he was pulled into a vortex of sadistic terror.....by the way the air speed velocity of an unladen african swallow is totally irrelivant we must find it for a european swallow..... :P

[Guest cwestervelt]

Girl: Its true that The Dark One is the "Lord of the Grave." That meens that when someone dies, he knows. The who/what/where/when/how don't matter. If the "death took him" had that significance, the "death" would have a capital. Same goes with Moridin as his name also means "Death".

 

Marak: "The first-struck Myrddraal seemed to reverse colors, become a white-clad, black shape, then it was drifting motes that vanished as its horse fled madly." The Fires of Heaven page 675. That is the description of something dying from low strength balefire. Why wouldn't you have the potential for his last shout to have "hung in the air when death took him"?

 

Your "THOUSANDS of possible ways of destroying someone" also don't mean anything in this case as far as I'm concerned. I do not now, nor have I ever, considered Asmodean's murder to be the act of a Foresaken. My prefered suspect had one known method to for the murder, and the description of the murder fits that method.

[jasonr]

Marak, sorry I gotta go against you on this one. Balefire leaves a memory, remember when Mat is attacked by the dark hound, and Rand balefires it. "Funny, I can remember it slobbering all over my arm."

 

If it leaves memories, what says it can't leave a sort of memory of a word or phrase, per-say. Marak also said that it was not a normal shout, for it hung in the air. Now, it seemed to hang in the air, which means it really didn't. Mat thought the dark hound slobbered on his arm, but it didn't. We thought that his scream hung in the air (or existed) but it didn't. I think that in itself is pritty decent evidence of balefire, although I am not against the non-channeler theory.

 

 

And girl, I have nothing to say :D I got lost by the end of that post.

[Marak]

G

 

Marak: "The first-struck Myrddraal seemed to reverse colors' date=' become a white-clad, black shape, then it was drifting motes that vanished as its horse fled madly." [u']The Fires of Heaven[/u] page 675. That is the description of something dying from low strength balefire. Why wouldn't you have the potential for his last shout to have "hung in the air when death took him"?

 

As you should know, Shadowspawn react differently to balefire than humans do. Myrddraal, Darkhounds, and other Shadowspawn often try and hang on a little longer, by virtue of the fact that they are not part of the Pattern, and are so affected differently by it.

 

Be'lal, Rahvin, and Asmodean, however, despite the fact they sold their souls to the Shadow, are NOT Shadowspawn. The only way to conclusively prove the effects of low-strength balefire are on a HUMAN.

 

Your "THOUSANDS of possible ways of destroying someone" also don't mean anything in this case as far as I'm concerned.

 

Then read more carefully. I was simply saying, if the Chosen killed him, then it wasn't mandatory for them to use balefire, in fact, it seemed somewhat unlikely.

 

I do not now, nor have I ever, considered Asmodean's murder to be the act of a Foresaken. My prefered suspect had one known method to for the murder, and the description of the murder fits that method.

 

I'm saying If the Chosen killed him, they didn't have to have used balefire. I was making no allusions to who actually did the deed at the time, I was only arguing about the means that could've been used. Thus, saying you didn't believe it was the Chosen hardly invalidates my argument in the least.

 

Oh, and using the "What if" argument.

 

Graendal:

What if Graendal was in the hallway when Asmodean turned up?

 

Sammael:

What if Sammael was waiting for Asmodean in the hallway?

 

Bela:

What if Bela was meeting Doctor Who?

What if Asmodean showed up?

What if Bela roundhouse kicked Asmodean to the face?

What if I won a barrel of REALLY strong whisky, and downed it in one gulp?

What if I was elected the President of the moon?

 

One what if each, except for Bela. But Bela is really obvious. Yar. I win the thread.

 

In all seriousness, however, why Moiraine? She sends Rand a LETTER saying she understands. I get the feeling she doesn't want to jeopardize Rand's sanity or ability to win the Last Battle that much. The Moiraine hypothesis assumes WAY too much.

 

I mean, look at Asmodean! He's not a threat to Rand. What can he do? If he goes back, he dies. If he kills Rand, he most likely dies, seeing as the DO wanted him alive. If he teaches Rand wrongly, chances are Rand'll kill him.

 

Graendal and Sammael often met with Rahvin in the Royal Palace, and had formulated a plan to trap Rand. Moiraine fell through a doorway. In all honesty, which one sounds more obvious here?

[girl-in-the-army]

He was beamed up onto the enterprise so that he could give James T Kirk a little info on how to sleep with a forsaken nympho!! :P

[Guest cwestervelt]

Your "THOUSANDS of possible ways of destroying someone" also don't mean anything in this case as far as I'm concerned. I do not now, nor have I ever, considered Asmodean's murder to be the act of a Foresaken. My prefered suspect had one known method to for the murder, and the description of the murder fits that method.

 

If you want to quote, please put it in context. Be seperating the two pieces you deliberately changed the meaning of what was stated to suite your own ends.

 

Graendal:

What if Graendal was in the hallway when Asmodean turned up?

 

Sammael:

What if Sammael was waiting for Asmodean in the hallway?

 

You forgot the "if they happened to be in Caemlyn." Which requires the "if they had a reason to be in Caemlyn." They just happened to be sitting around in hostile territory for nothing better to do. Even under Rahvin they weren't very welcome there. That is one of the reasons they had so many meetings in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Your choice of Graendal and Sammael makes me think you are a "Two Servants" person? Ever thought that they could have just been two servants hiding for their life while they tried to get out of the palace? It would have been a bigger ommision if there weren't any servants around as it was a surprise attack. It would have taken some time for the palace to clear out.

 

[dalic]

Harry has been put forth as a suspect. I could be wrong here but would Asmo even know who Harry is? Asmo did know the killer.

[JRJ]

If it leaves memories' date=' what says it can't leave a sort of memory of a word or phrase, per-say. Marak also said that it was not a normal shout, for it hung in the air. Now, it [b']seemed[/b] to hang in the air, which means it really didn't. Mat thought the dark hound slobbered on his arm, but it didn't. We thought that his scream hung in the air (or existed) but it didn't. I think that in itself is pritty decent evidence of balefire, although I am not against the non-channeler theory.

.

The word is still, not seemed.

 

And I would disagree with that accessment strongly. If you conclude that the sound after Asmodean's death lingered is important, then why not the abscense of Flecks or Motes? Both have been seen in Be'lal and Rahvin's deaths by Balefire, why not Asmodean?

 

Some more points against (edited in) :

 

1. Balefire is very noticable, just like a Gateway, even in it's smallest form. It leaves residue and traces that can be found later (as Aviendha's later Talents attest).

 

2. As has been already been accurately mentioned in this thread, Balefire kills before it hits. Meaning, Asmodean should have died before death took him, not at the very moment it struck.

 

3. It would be incredibly risky to Travel multiple times and Balefire someone on accident with Rand and Aviendha closeby. Graendal, or whoever, would have risked everything for nothing. And, as far as we know, Graendal never recieved those DO brownie points or bragged about it to another forsaken. Afterall, Shaidar Haran told her that her time to go her own way was over... killing Asmodean for brownie points doesn't seem liking going her own way to me.

 

This assumption as to Graendal's motives leads to more assumptions on why she has and still is concealing the murder.

[Marak]

Your choice of Graendal and Sammael makes me think you are a "Two Servants" person? Ever thought that they could have just been two servants hiding for their life while they tried to get out of the palace? It would have been a bigger ommision if there weren't any servants around as it was a surprise attack. It would have taken some time for the palace to clear out.

 

...What the hell are you talking about?

[JRJ]

JRJ ... When Asmo produces the goblet' date=' Rand does notice but pretends he himself did it in order not to blow Asmo's cover. The moment the visitors are gone he gives him a pretty stern warning never to do that again.[/quote']

 

Here is Rand's reaction,

 

Feeling disgusted with himself as much as angry at the man' date=' Rand unraveled the weave and let him drop. Manhandling him was like picking a fight with a boy of ten. He could not see the shield that constricted the other man's access to saidin — it was female work — but he knew it was there. Moving a goblet was about the extent of Natael's ability, now. Luckily the shield had been hidden from female eyes, too. Natael called the trick "inverting"; he did not seem able to explain it, though. "And if she'd seen my face and was suspicious? [b']I was as startled[/b] as if that goblet had flown at me by itself!" He stuck his pipe back between his teeth and sent up furious streams of smoke."

Rand did more than notice, and didn't cover it up very well. I think it's a fact that male channeling is very difficult to detect.

 

A male channeler has a MUCH higher chance to have gotten away with the murder.

 

P.S.

 

Jordan has said that the Two Servants are just that : Two Servants. He also said that the Fish bites were a fact of TAR; in case that also disproven theory comes up again.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Part of the problem we have here is that there is just too much stale information sitting on various WOT websites. Old information persists, because the sites are not updated when new information arrives. The Two Servants Theory being one example.

 

Another part of the problem is that there are enough holes in the circumstances surrounding Asmo's death to drive several convoys of trucks ( lorries for those in the UK ) through.

 

Moggy knows too much. Where did she get all that info? And so soon? Rand didn't tell very many people about deciding to go after Rahvin rather than Sammael. But, she already knows... even down to the planned time of the attack. How'd she do dat? She also knows about Rahvin having warded and trapped all of Caemlyn against any male channeler. Again, how? ( BTW, this is why, even though he has the strongest motive, it couldn't have been Sam... he wouldn't have survived getting into Caemlyn. )

 

Yet, she also knows too little. She knows nothing about Lanfear's little rampage on the docks. So, info gets to her rapidly but not instantly.

 

The whole, "You? No!" thing. Asmo obviously knew his killer and was very surprised to see that person. The most likely implication of that, to me, is that it was somebody operating covertly. Asmo was killed so that this person would not be revealed for who they are. A chance encounter, rather than a planned ambush. This is backed up by Jordan's statement that Asmo was "roadkill." ie somebody who got run over because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Asmo didn't expect to see killer. Killer didn't expect to see Asmo. Killer reacted faster. Killer did not channel anything strong enough to be detected. Balefire is a complicated and power intensive weave. It requires knowledge, skill and a level of strength and concentrated effort that risks detection.

 

Therefore... it was Spock with a Vulcan neck pinch in the hallway, not Colonel Mustard with the candlestick in the Conservatory.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bob T Dwarf]

Marak -

 

Dr. Who is omniscient and INVINCIBLE... just ask the Daleks. He snuck in prior to the invention of the Time Trap, and cleverly inserted a number of trap doors into the code. He aint gonna let hissef be foxed by no poxy Time Traps. The Beta Zanguliods are happy, they think they've got an impregnable defense, and Dr. Who is happy because he can come and go as he needs, in order to find a continuing series of gullible girls to step into his "phonebooth."

 

"Wanna make a phonecall, little girl?"

[Guest cwestervelt]

Your choice of Graendal and Sammael makes me think you are a "Two Servants" person? Ever thought that they could have just been two servants hiding for their life while they tried to get out of the palace? It would have been a bigger ommision if there weren't any servants around as it was a surprise attack. It would have taken some time for the palace to clear out.

 

...What the hell are you talking about?

 

There are various theories floating around that the two servants that Rand sees when chasing Rhavin are Graendal and Sammael in disguise so that one of the other can be placed in Caemlyn for the attack.

 

Your comments of

Graendal:

What if Graendal was in the hallway when Asmodean turned up?

 

Sammael:

What if Sammael was waiting for Asmodean in the hallway?

 

Tend to fit the pattern than those theories follow. At least of the ones I read.

[Guest Egwene]

The last sound made before a silence always lingers in the memory of the listener. Doesn't matter if it's cut off by balefire of the plug being pulled on your radio.

 

JRJ, I don't follow your logic why you say Male channeling is more difficult to detect. Neither male nor female can detect channeling before it is done! So Rand noticed it the instant Asmo started, quick enough to cover up the physical evidence. Because he absolutely did not expect Asmo to channel, he was startled. Where in that whole episode you see evidence for male channeling to be difficult to detect, I do not understand.

 

Can you tell me where on the Blog I can find those two quotes that you attribute to RJ (ref. servants and fish)?

[Paradoxic]

The blog is a very new thing and thus entirely useless to the Asmodean debate. Go read up on the FAQ ( http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/0_admin/0.01_intro.html ) for any older news, such as past RJ posts.

 

For example, with the fish -

 

"n defense of this theory, it has been suggested that there is evidence that Graendal was not just hiding in the Palace, but actually helping Rahvin out, secretly, during his fight with Rand at the end of TFOH. What is the basis for this supposition?

 

The fish.

 

What fish? The fish in T'A'R which attack Rand. After Rahvin is BFed, Rand still has fish-bites which Nynaeve must Heal [TFOH: 55, The Threads Burn, 673]. Because BF erases somebody backwards, and Rahvin was erased back to before he entered T'A'R, the bites would have been un-created if Rahvin had made the fish. Thus, somebody else must have made the fish. This third party could have been Graendal.

 

However, this is not how balefire works in T'A'R. Joel Gilmore went to see RJ at a book signing in Australia (21 September, 1999), and here's what he found out:

 

I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/T'A'R question - when someone is BFed, the constructs they make in T'A'R do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with T'A'R and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire is used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example." - http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html

 

I've not personally seen quote related to the two servants, but I'm sure the quotes are on another fan site. Plus, as you see below, it is unlikely that Sammael did the deed.

 

PLEASE, if you have not already gone through the Asmodean FAQ section, do so. It has a lot of good reasons to kick out the majority of suspects. For example, this is under Sammael's section (actually, it is all of Sammael's section)

 

"Sammael

We are given very few hints in Sammael's thoughts in LOC and ACOS, and the issue is made even muddier by the game of deception he plays with Graendal. But in [LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 133] we have: "Rumors! Lanfear has been aiding al'Thor since the beginning, if you [Graendal] ask me. I would have had his head in the Stone of Tear except that someone sent Myrddraal and Trollocs to save him! That was Lanfear; I am certain. I'm done with her. The next time I see her, I'll kill her! And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al'Thor. He's teaching him!" This is in a Sammael POV section. He is also trembling with anger, which makes it quite unlikely he's feigning ignorance of Asmo's fate. Thus, it's unlikely that Sammael did the deed." - http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html#sam

 

Messana is out because it is very suspect that in her two trips to the see the DO between Asmo's death and her scene in LOC yet the DO doesn't bother appearing to talk to her. She's also one of the Forsaken that continues on with the "Asmo disappeared" and not that he is dead (unlike Graendal).

 

I can quote the hell out of this FAQ. For example, there are Three occassions where she states that she believes Asmodean dead. There is also an interesting quote here: "Only she [Graendal] herself knew that she had made her own journey to Shayol Ghul and down to the lake of fire. Only she knew that the Great Lord had all but promised to name her Nae'blis." [LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 138]

 

Is it definate evidence, of course not. In this debate, she stands with the fewest marks against her and that is saying something when NO obvious answers are present.

 

And in closing, this quote comes from RJ and is support for my "the murderer is not actually important" point - "The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me." [RJ in a CNN chat on December 12, 2000]

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think it's a fact that male channeling is very difficult to detect.

 

A male channeler has a MUCH higher chance to have gotten away with the murder.

 

Not for another male. When Rand attacks Sammael in Illian' date=' he specifically forbids any of the Ashamen from channeling because he [i']will[/i] detect it and immediately attack the channeler on the presumption that it's Sam. He doesn't want any friendly fire incidents.

 

Then he goes on to prove himself right by immediately detecting Sam's gateway at a considerable distance.

 

It can't be a male channeler for two reasons:

Rahvin had warded and trapped the entire city against any male channeling but his own.

Rand would have immediately detected a male channeling and at the very least investigated.

[ronoc/booms]

ok, i'll be the first to say this is a very sketchy theory, and this could have been said already (i have tried but i just can't read 445 posts), but we know that asmodean knew the person who attacked him, (he says "You? No!")the ? may suggest that he didn't expect to see that person there, we was in a public part of the palace, if it was anyone expected to be at the palace he wouldn't have been surprised. now it might be just me, but if one of the "normal" forsaken had done it RJ would have no reason (except possibly for his own amusment) not to tell us. and as bob pointed out if one of the male forsaken had killed him, rand would have more than likely sensed it, and i think i could go as far to say that if it was one of the females forsaken, then Aviendha (who was only out by the fountain, which Asmodean had just left) would have sensed it. that rules out the one power. but not the true power, and we come to moridin, the problem is asmodean had never met moridin before. that rules him out (but the last line is "when death took him", as we all know moridin=Death; i wouldn't be surprised if it was him). and that brings me to the gholam, they wouldn't have used the one power, and since there's only 6 of them its more than likely asmodean knew what they all looked like, and they are more than capable of sneeking into the royal palace undetected.

i am very likely wrong but all i can do is speculate, after all Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (its time to role the dice).

[girl-in-the-army]

I am telling you all you are all wrong it was the DO it has always been the DO :D this is his first major touching of the world we know th DO is the first to know he is dead, the DO can most likley use the true power, and he wanted to punish asmo for his deviation from the path of darkness....just a little stretching before breaking out, why not test his ability to touch the world by opening a small doorway and snatching up Asmo, taking out a traitor, rands teacher and also doing something that in the great scheeme of things wouldnt be obvious to all those who worshup the light or the dark lord, after all if you fail at that the light has no reason to fear and the dark no reason to follow......death is the lord of the grave and snatched tortured in his own realm, (by placing him on the starship enterprise with CPT kirks bad acting, thus the reason the blood drained from his face) and then killed him or intends to thus dead is as good as dead!! See it all makes perfect sence!!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Almost right...

 

After Spock gave him the Vulcan neck pinch, Scotty just beamed the body into space. Asmo was actually lucky, as he was spared William Shatner's acting.

[Guest Egwene]

Paradoxic... thanks for all the links.

 

However, I prefer to hammer out my own theory rather than quote someone else's. Reason I asked for links to RJ's quotes is that I am very sceptic when it comes to second hand quotes. By changing one word it is possible to completely distort the meaning. RJ phrases his replys very carefully so as not to accidentely give away something he does not want us to know. So unless I have his original wording, I treat any quote as suspect.

 

Just take the 'fish'. If it hadn't been for this guy that said RJ told me... you're FAQ's would have 'it's a fact the fish bites were caused by someone else' written all over them. Question is of course, can the source of this quote be trusted?

 

I didn't come to this discussion with tons of pre-conceived ideas and I want to keep it that way. It isn't about being right.. it's about finding answers and almost as much about finding the questions first.

 

And you know the phrase 'we all like to make our own mistakes'

 

I thought it interesting what Bob said about RJ's comment of Asmo being roadkill. It certainly is a point in favour of accidental rather than pre-meditated killing.

 

Hi booms.. thanks for voting!! Though I think the problem with your gholam is that it hasn't been introduced yet.