Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[XXX]

A male Forsaken doesn't have those problems, and they can't simply track him down with no information.

 

Which brings us back to Moiraine who seemed to do something similar to that with Bel'al.

 

Ever wondered exactly how and why? What I mean is, there are at least two instances, 6 chapters apart (TDR) where Moiraine pops up with information the exact identities of Forsaken and where they rule. If you take things strictly at face value, Moiraine somehow managed to not only figure out which Highlord was a Forsaken within the space of a couple of hours, but that the specific "secret identity" of that High Lord. Granted, there's not that many Forsaken males to divine the information from, but still....

 

Unless there's something that I've overlooked, I'm thinking that Moiraine already outed Verin as Black Ajah some time earlier and has a short list of known Forsaken and their domains.

 

Anyone have an answer for this..how exactly did Moraine identify the forsaken?

[Suttree]

A male Forsaken doesn't have those problems, and they can't simply track him down with no information.

 

Which brings us back to Moiraine who seemed to do something similar to that with Bel'al.

 

Ever wondered exactly how and why? What I mean is, there are at least two instances, 6 chapters apart (TDR) where Moiraine pops up with information the exact identities of Forsaken and where they rule. If you take things strictly at face value, Moiraine somehow managed to not only figure out which Highlord was a Forsaken within the space of a couple of hours, but that the specific "secret identity" of that High Lord. Granted, there's not that many Forsaken males to divine the information from, but still....

 

Unless there's something that I've overlooked, I'm thinking that Moiraine already outed Verin as Black Ajah some time earlier and has a short list of known Forsaken and their domains.

 

Anyone have an answer for this..how exactly did Moraine identify the forsaken?

 

She knew the forsaken were free and she had just spent months studying them with Adeleas and Vandene. Not to mention the fact that they were likely setting up power bases in large cities, combined with the crazy dreams and her eavesdropping weave. From there it was just intel and deduction.

[XXX]

But how exactly did she know Belal was in Tear and not Rahvin for instance. AFAIK no pictures of the forsaken exists and Moraine had no idea how they looked.

[MasterAblar]

But how exactly did she know Belal was in Tear and not Rahvin for instance. AFAIK no pictures of the forsaken exists and Moraine had no idea how they looked.

 

I suppose it's possible she eavesdropped on Bel'al and Rahvin talking with another Forsaken who would have mentioned their name. It's rather unlikely for it to happen even once though, and it would have happened twice.

[Luckers]

But how exactly did she know Belal was in Tear and not Rahvin for instance. AFAIK no pictures of the forsaken exists and Moraine had no idea how they looked.

 

As far as we know there may well be descriptions remaining of the Forsaken. Consider that it would be easy enough to identify which of the Nine/High Lords was the Forsaken-in-a-wig. Moiraine need only look for the newly affluent Lord and thats taken care of. Throw in the dreams, and it would take much to identify that Lord Brend and High Lord Sammmon were not what they appeared to be.

 

From there who is to say there isn't a reference to Sammael's scar somewhere, or to Be'lal's white hair, or height, or skill with a blade.

 

There are any number of clues that could have tipped Moiraine once she knew which High Lord/Nine to look at. And Moiraine has been researching the Shadow a lot longer than just the time she spent with Adeleas and Vandene.

[Eht Slat Meit]

As far as we know there may well be descriptions remaining of the Forsaken. Consider that it would be easy enough to identify which of the Nine/High Lords was the Forsaken-in-a-wig. Moiraine need only look for the newly affluent Lord and thats taken care of. Throw in the dreams, and it would take much to identify that Lord Brend and High Lord Sammmon were not what they appeared to be.

 

From there who is to say there isn't a reference to Sammael's scar somewhere, or to Be'lal's white hair, or height, or skill with a blade.

 

There are any number of clues that could have tipped Moiraine once she knew which High Lord/Nine to look at. And Moiraine has been researching the Shadow a lot longer than just the time she spent with Adeleas and Vandene.

 

As far as the books go, it's kind of sketchy, and unfortunately it seems like there's not enough information to be able to tell if she should reasonably have been able to puzzle out Sammael or Bel'al's identity or whether she had some special insight going for her. I mean, she's probably the smartest person in Randland, but still...

 

For me, it comes down to a couple of text-points in TGH. While it doesn't appear to be accurate (according to Seven Spokes, and I don't know how reliable that is) that she spent months there, there are a couple of key quotes from her conversation with Vandene that stick out for relevance.

 

When questioning Vandene on Lanfear, there's the standard response:

"And what can you tell me of the Forsaken?"

"You do leap from subject to subject. I can tell you little more than you learned as a novice. No one knows much more of the Nameless than that. Do you expect me to ramble on with what we both learned as girls?"

 

That boils down to Vandene offering nothing that we haven't already been given insight into earlier, their identities, some of the horror they were responsible for, that sort of thing. No real insight.

 

However, there's also another blurb:

Two treatises on the Horn of Valere. Three on dark prophecy, and – Light, here's Santhra's book on the Forsaken. Nasty, that. As nasty as this on Shadar Logoth.

 

So, putting the two quotes together (same chapter, 22), we know that whatever is in Santhra's Book, it doesn't tell them anything they don't already know, or at least feel is significant, from novice lessons. Perhaps it's praise to the Great Lord and his glorious servants, or descriptions of Forsaken atrocities, or something. Little descriptions of Forsaken are something that might be overlooked by Vandene, who is still clueless about the Forsaken, though someone like Moiraine who -knows- the Forsaken are loose might tuck it away.

 

That seems the most reasonable answer, I guess, since there doesn't seem to be any point at which Moiraine could have latched onto Verin, though I'd be interested in knowing the full scope of the reveal that took place when Verin blindsided Siuan and Moiraine with her knowledge of the Dragon. The other alternative is that Moiraine is simply that brilliant and worked it out, which I'm down with, but consider less likely.

[kght22]

how did verin know it was mesanna in the white tower? she wasnt sure, but she suspected. its pretty clear that we as the readers don't know what the aes'sedai know about the forsaken, any more than the aes'sedai know as much as they think they do. we have heard them mention some characteristics, but never has it been all out. its actually quite possible that they know more about them than the bwb tells us. remember, when rj said that people rarely know as much as they think they do, he doesn't just mean the characters in his books.

[muddasssir]

I also like that under the Amyrlin/former Amyrlin, we see Siuan the hard working daughter of a poor fisherman, clever enough to teach Old tongue classes as a very young Accepted, but still somebody quite realistic, not an uber-Aes Sedai as Egwene (I don't want to jump into full-blown Egwene discussion again and I'm sure that neither do you ).

 

I like that Siuan embraces her roots, in Egwene's case we know that she is Bran's and Marin's daughter, but see nothing left from her former life. Mat was and is a prankster, knows a lot about horses (his father's trade), sometimes mentiones "milking his fathers' cows". Perrin was and always is a blacksmith. Even Rand, most generic though he is is as a main hero, sometimes shows traces of his farm upbringing (e.g. when he thinks about plants when among the Aiel or when visiting his school in Cairhien). Egwene could have "future Amyrlin Seat" written on her from day one, apart from that function, who is she? I want her to be a person, not a personified office.

 

I still think you're splitting hairs a bit to hate Egwene most, but have Siuan on your favourites list... particularly since a lot of Egwene's uber-aes-sedai-ness is likely Siuan's doing. Since she did swear to make Egwene the best Amyrlin ever.

 

Egwene is the goodie two shoes, suck-up, focused, go-hard. That's pretty cliche just like the three boys. Though yes, often less "likable" (in the sense of wanting to be friends with her). But it makes her less drowsy read than constant complainers, in my opinion. Rand, Mat and Perrin have so many "oh god just shut up" moments. Egwene has many fewer. Even those who hate her rage at what she says/does because she is saying/doing stuff.

 

And if you don't think I want to get into another Egwene discussion, you don't know me as well as I thought you did .

 

This just simply is the whole problem she does not have a personality. She is like a stand up comedian. Who will mimic the one who is most famous at the time. If it is Goerge bush than she will be Bush or Obama or whatever. All other chracters and that include Siuan has a personality. when she is becoming wisdom she wants to be Nynaeve. When she wants to be an Aes Sedai she wants to be MOiraine When she wants to be a dream walker she wants to be an aiel when she wants too be an Amyrilin she wants to be someone dead 1000 years or so. We never saw Egwene Al vere. where is the chracter that we could love.

[Kahsm]

I also like that under the Amyrlin/former Amyrlin, we see Siuan the hard working daughter of a poor fisherman, clever enough to teach Old tongue classes as a very young Accepted, but still somebody quite realistic, not an uber-Aes Sedai as Egwene (I don't want to jump into full-blown Egwene discussion again and I'm sure that neither do you ).

 

I like that Siuan embraces her roots, in Egwene's case we know that she is Bran's and Marin's daughter, but see nothing left from her former life. Mat was and is a prankster, knows a lot about horses (his father's trade), sometimes mentiones "milking his fathers' cows". Perrin was and always is a blacksmith. Even Rand, most generic though he is is as a main hero, sometimes shows traces of his farm upbringing (e.g. when he thinks about plants when among the Aiel or when visiting his school in Cairhien). Egwene could have "future Amyrlin Seat" written on her from day one, apart from that function, who is she? I want her to be a person, not a personified office.

 

I still think you're splitting hairs a bit to hate Egwene most, but have Siuan on your favourites list... particularly since a lot of Egwene's uber-aes-sedai-ness is likely Siuan's doing. Since she did swear to make Egwene the best Amyrlin ever.

 

Egwene is the goodie two shoes, suck-up, focused, go-hard. That's pretty cliche just like the three boys. Though yes, often less "likable" (in the sense of wanting to be friends with her). But it makes her less drowsy read than constant complainers, in my opinion. Rand, Mat and Perrin have so many "oh god just shut up" moments. Egwene has many fewer. Even those who hate her rage at what she says/does because she is saying/doing stuff.

 

And if you don't think I want to get into another Egwene discussion, you don't know me as well as I thought you did .

 

This just simply is the whole problem she does not have a personality. She is like a stand up comedian. Who will mimic the one who is most famous at the time. If it is Goerge bush than she will be Bush or Obama or whatever. All other chracters and that include Siuan has a personality. when she is becoming wisdom she wants to be Nynaeve. When she wants to be an Aes Sedai she wants to be MOiraine When she wants to be a dream walker she wants to be an aiel when she wants too be an Amyrilin she wants to be someone dead 1000 years or so. We never saw Egwene Al vere. where is the chracter that we could love.

 

That's quite true. Though that's a pretty normal problem for young people I think. At least the people she choses to emulate are pretty damn good rolemodels! She wants to be as good or better than the powerful women she meets, that is Egwene. Best form of flattery and all that...

 

Does that really justify the rancid hatred?

[Maleshub]

An 18-20 year old girl whose first experience outside her home is with Aes Sedai and Trollocs. She discovers that she could be Aes Sedai and that ignited her drive to learn as much as possible and at almost any cost.

 

I'd say that's starting at the bottom of the ladder and moving up. The development of all main characters is that way; including Rand, Perrin, Mat, and even Moiraine.

 

But Egwene didn't want to be Suian. Sure the latter tutored her (well I think); but Egwene was in control. We see her tranformation and development complete in the scene where she pays her toh to the dreamwalkers. Even with her teachers, her personality drove her to learn. Only when she learned to take responsibility for her actions was she ready to lead. And the Aiel are the best at teaching leadership (by Egwene's assessment and desire to have accepted go to them).

 

I don't think Egwene is a "copy" of anyone. She's just Egwene :)

[Durinax]

An 18-20 year old girl whose first experience outside her home is with Aes Sedai and Trollocs. She discovers that she could be Aes Sedai and that ignited her drive to learn as much as possible and at almost any cost.

 

I'd say that's starting at the bottom of the ladder and moving up. The development of all main characters is that way; including Rand, Perrin, Mat, and even Moiraine.

 

But Egwene didn't want to be Suian. Sure the latter tutored her (well I think); but Egwene was in control. We see her tranformation and development complete in the scene where she pays her toh to the dreamwalkers. Even with her teachers, her personality drove her to learn. Only when she learned to take responsibility for her actions was she ready to lead. And the Aiel are the best at teaching leadership (by Egwene's assessment and desire to have accepted go to them).

 

I don't think Egwene is a "copy" of anyone. She's just Egwene :)

egwene is a carbon copy of other characters. when she is apprenticed to nynaeve, she acts just like her. When she follows moraine, she acts just like her. When she apprentices to the aiel, she becomes like them. The lessons don't seem to stick too well with her.

 

 

there are a few times we see the real her though. During EotW when she and perrin are on their own, when the whole BA hunt sequence begins and their away from AS. and again once she is separated from suian.

 

but my main dislike for her is how everything seems to fall into her lap. Like when she brings forward the vote about the army being the senates job and kings the amyrlins job, the vote is at a stalemate until latecomers arrive and vote in her favour without knowing the issue. Like cmon

[Suttree]

but my main dislike for her is how everything seems to fall into her lap. Like when she brings forward the vote about the army being the senates job and kings the amyrlins job, the vote is at a stalemate until latecomers arrive and vote in her favour without knowing the issue. Like cmon

 

Yeah, that was pretty bad and something I don't believe RJ would have ever written.

 

TGS

At that moment, Doesine and Yukiri arrived, striding into the room. Saerin stood immediately. Slim Doesine glanced at the women around her. "What motion are we standing for?"

 

"An important one," Saerin said.

 

"Well, I suppose I'll stand for it, then."

 

"As will I," Yukiri said.

 

I mean seriously?

 

I do think one thing to note about Egwene is she does work very hard. She has obviously earned Siuan's trust and she has moved far beyond any copying at this point. She is still a young woman finding herself as she finds her way as Amrylin.

[MasterAblar]

but my main dislike for her is how everything seems to fall into her lap. Like when she brings forward the vote about the army being the senates job and kings the amyrlins job, the vote is at a stalemate until latecomers arrive and vote in her favour without knowing the issue. Like cmon

 

Yeah, that was pretty bad and something I don't believe RJ would have ever written.

 

TGS

At that moment, Doesine and Yukiri arrived, striding into the room. Saerin stood immediately. Slim Doesine glanced at the women around her. "What motion are we standing for?"

 

"An important one," Saerin said.

 

"Well, I suppose I'll stand for it, then."

 

"As will I," Yukiri said.

 

I mean seriously?

 

I do think one thing to note about Egwene is she does work very hard. She has obviously earned Siuan's trust and she has moved far beyond any copying at this point. She is still a young woman finding herself as she finds her way as Amrylin.

 

Weren't they just following Saerin's lead though? They were all working together with Egwene for some time, so they probably were just trusting that Saerin was making the right decision. It's not very responsible to give your vote like that without knowing what it's about, but at least there a justification to them doing it.

[muddasssir]

but my main dislike for her is how everything seems to fall into her lap. Like when she brings forward the vote about the army being the senates job and kings the amyrlins job, the vote is at a stalemate until latecomers arrive and vote in her favour without knowing the issue. Like cmon

 

Yeah, that was pretty bad and something I don't believe RJ would have ever written.

 

TGS

At that moment, Doesine and Yukiri arrived, striding into the room. Saerin stood immediately. Slim Doesine glanced at the women around her. "What motion are we standing for?"

 

"An important one," Saerin said.

 

"Well, I suppose I'll stand for it, then."

 

"As will I," Yukiri said.

 

I mean seriously?

 

I do think one thing to note about Egwene is she does work very hard. She has obviously earned Siuan's trust and she has moved far beyond any copying at this point. She is still a young woman finding herself as she finds her way as Amrylin.

 

Weren't they just following Saerin's lead though? They were all working together with Egwene for some time, so they probably were just trusting that Saerin was making the right decision. It's not very responsible to give your vote like that without knowing what it's about, but at least there a justification to them doing it.

 

seriously! I mean really really seriously! Come on people I wanted it to be one of the threads on my countdown to AMoL but I guess you people won't let me. what is even more irritating is the about faces she does. I do not remember books but I guess it was after the supposed death of the Moiraine. Wise Ones prohibited her from going to Tar She is sneaking in behind their back and she is scolding Nynaeve for not doing something. Then there is a scene where she just walks in and make Bridgette spill the beans. First RJ and then BS has worked so hard to build the character but it ends up irritating everyone even more. I mean she was OK up to TGH but after that she started spiraling down. I mean how can you possibly compare her to any of the leading characters. You have Rand even when he is going insane he does not want to hurt his friends. He wants to use them but he is not doing anything to glorify himself. He wants what is best for the world. Similarly, take a look at any of the leading characters. You will find that they do not want any glory for themselves. I mean even mat is not that selfish. When you look at Egwene it is always everything about her. how it should be her legacy, her power, her this her that. I mean she is the only character on the side of light whose ego is more important then victory of light. well it might be too extreme but her self righteous crap is really very annoying. I can quote literlly several incidents beyond the couple that quoted above. So even if she is creator made flesh I am still going to despise this character. I stiil saved some of my best arguments for my thread but that wil be then.LOL

[Suttree]

He wants what is best for the world

 

And so does Egwene, this has been made abundantly clear through her povs over and over again. She is clearly working towards what she believes is the greater good. To say she is only motivated by power is ludicrous. In fact she clearly states the WT must reform and can not continue as it has.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

You can argue whether she is misguided to put her faith in the WT, but you can not question her reasons for doing so.

[Guest PiotrekS]

It's somehow comforting the Egwene discussion still carries on. After all, it was already old when people like me found their way to Dragonmount.

 

I hope this goes on forever

[Maleshub]

Seems that the Elayne - Rand discussion and subs take the majority of post. And that got me going on Elayne's character.

 

As a background, I'm a huge Egwene fan. I am currently re-reading TEotW on the heels of a full reading of the 13 books. TEotW coming after the last 3 books gives a strong indication of how far Egwene has developed and come along. She started out as the weakest of the group that fled the 2 rivers. She was almost a burden; and her ignorance and innocence were abundant. In addition, she was a novice in everything with her inexperience and not having the luck of Taveren.

 

Why this prelude about Egwene when I'm talking about Elayne? I cannot help but be sad when I see how the Rand - Egwene romance fell apart. I would have loved for that to be a strong source of strength for both of them during their hardships. And it is funny how Egwene always fell in trouble and was imprisoned whenever she was away from Rand. First by the Whitecloaks; then the Seanchan; followed by Liandrin's BA in Tear; and finally by Elaida.

 

Anyway, on to Elayne. She was pretty good and reasonable and very mature when she handled her long acquaintanceship with Nynaeve. She faced a ton of danger and odds without losing her better judgement and empathy.

 

But when she started her path to being a queen, she started losing stock (in my view, of course). She became a self-possessed, impulsive, insecure person who abandoned the better judgement that characterized her in the past. It is as if she didn't learn anything (on the human level, not the power) from those experiences.

 

The climax of negativity for me was how she asked Perrin and Faile why she shouldn't just execute them. When I read that, I was like "B..ch!" What made it worse was that it happened after she learned that her mother owed her life and freedom to Perrin! (Forget her proclamation in the public audience about reward, that was politics!).

 

Currently, she stands as the least favorite character on the Light's side along with her brother, whom I expect to improve greatly after the evaporation of the causes of his confusion. But he's relegated to a support role as warder. So, he's secondary at best.

 

Aside form his impulsiveness and idiocy, Gawyn as a warder can no longer be First Prince of the Sword or Prince Consort (whatever the title is). He forsook the oath he'd grown up with to be with his sister and protect her and lead her armies! On impulse, he threw away his life and responsibility and put them at Egwene's feet. Maybe he can redeem himself in a major way in the last book.

 

A comment of the Elayne's statement against Rand giving her the throne.

 

I don't think the issue was on top of her grievances or even an issue worth fretting over. She did what she had to do to secure the throne; and it had to be through preserving Andor's independence from the Dragon. Heck, the first time she met him after taking over the palace, she never mentioned it. She bonded him, then had him unbuttoning her dress! And Rand did her a second favor by securing the Tarkand line with twins, a boy and a girl.

 

If Rand lives to see post-TG, he (married to Elayne, Aviendha, and Min) would be Elayne's Prince Consort. With Gawyn under Egwene's command and spell, there isn't a better alternative. And Rand would probably juggle that with being the "Chief of Chiefs" for the Aiel to guide them to a less grim future than Aviendha saw.

 

In 10 months we'll find out!

[lostcause]

I don't know where to begin with Egwene, her selfish childishness, the way she had a patronizing view on everyone that has taught her what she knows, to making so many issues and matters worse by her secrets and ignorance when it comes to Rand.

 

Of the original 5, she is the only one that really used Rand. All her "I know what is best for him, he's just a stupid male" attitude grated me. Nynave, I'd have thought would be the biggest annoyance in that regard, yet she never thought to use Rand, even as Aes Sedai, she wished only to save him, especially from Aes Sedai. And that thinking made her such a huge help to Rand.

 

Egwene was all about herself, becoming Aes Sedai, having influence and power. She'd never think to save Rand from herself, just use him as she saw was best. Even her thing with Gawyn, the first dream she sees with Gawyn, she witnesses the man she has loved all her life, until a few months ago, whom she still loves as a brother - cut down brutally by Gawyn. And what does she do? Forget all about that and just go all in love with someone who is REALLY a woolheaded fool without any sense of thinking once he's made his mind up. Nice judgement there.

 

Then there is the Mary Sue aspect where everything just happens to fall into place for her when she needs it to. She doesn't have the same personal journey as the rest of the protagonists. She just travels one place, succeeds, then move on and repeat.

 

Second to Egwene is Faile, she started with promise, but by the time she was taken by the Shaido I had lost a lot of interest in her.

 

 

If any of these 2 dies in the last book, I can't really feel sad for them.

 

 

Favourite women are Nynave and Avi by far. They got temper and initiative but are also able to think and act rationally when needed.

 

Elayne is somewhat in between. She has great moments, and some facepalming ones.

[damandred]

I think Egwene has character, her determination, and inner strength see to that, though she is a realist and that can make her come across as cold and uncaring.

Don't get me wrong some of her self righteous holier than thou spiel gets up my nose, but to imply that she cares nothing for Rand and is only seeking her own glory is a bit unfair I think. Her reaction to her test for Accepted and refusal to kill Nicola tells me her hearts in the right place.

I think what annoys people the most about her is the unrealistic way she goes from being a inn keepers daughter in a small village in to a political animal in just two years, most of which she was to busy hunting black AS ect. I mean COME ON she's not only one of the best channellers she can debate history with the Brown, logic with the white understand war strategy and more. Not possible.

[Suttree]

I think Egwene has character, her determination, and inner strength see to that, though she is a realist and that can make her come across as cold and uncaring.

Don't get me wrong some of her self righteous holier than thou spiel gets up my nose, but to imply that she cares nothing for Rand and is only seeking her own glory is a bit unfair I think.

 

Saying she is only out for her own glory is absurd. Consolidating power in preparing the WT for the LB is not being selfish or power hungry. She has already made a good number of reforms to get the WT pointed in the right direction and her povs show clearly that she believes she is working for the greater good.

 

The fact that AS may not be the best qualified to lead the light is a separate issue entirely.

[Kahsm]

I don't know where to begin with Egwene, her selfish childishness, the way she had a patronizing view on everyone that has taught her what she knows, to making so many issues and matters worse by her secrets and ignorance when it comes to Rand.

 

Of the original 5, she is the only one that really used Rand. All her "I know what is best for him, he's just a stupid male" attitude grated me. Nynave, I'd have thought would be the biggest annoyance in that regard, yet she never thought to use Rand, even as Aes Sedai, she wished only to save him, especially from Aes Sedai. And that thinking made her such a huge help to Rand.

 

Egwene was all about herself, becoming Aes Sedai, having influence and power. She'd never think to save Rand from herself, just use him as she saw was best. Even her thing with Gawyn, the first dream she sees with Gawyn, she witnesses the man she has loved all her life, until a few months ago, whom she still loves as a brother - cut down brutally by Gawyn. And what does she do? Forget all about that and just go all in love with someone who is REALLY a woolheaded fool without any sense of thinking once he's made his mind up. Nice judgement there.

 

Then there is the Mary Sue aspect where everything just happens to fall into place for her when she needs it to. She doesn't have the same personal journey as the rest of the protagonists. She just travels one place, succeeds, then move on and repeat.

 

Patronizing view of everyone who taught her?

Egwene let out a soft, slow breath. It was remarkable to her, sometimes, how much stock she put in the opinions of these women.

"She hadn't understood. Tel'aran'rbiod was about as safe as a bear trap painted a pretty color. If the Wise Ones hadn't straightened her out, she might not have lived to become Amyrlin."

And of course this HORRIBLE quote where she accepts problems in the white tower, accepts her own past failures (which some claim she never does) but then still defends her organization and it's potential in the future. What a despicable human being!

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

Bair hesitated. "I have toh."

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rbiod. In like manner \ cannot abandon those of the White Tower."

Amys' eyes narrowed. "You have grown much since we last met, Egwene al'Vere."

 

Doesn't care about Rand, just wants to use him? They've barely interacted the whole series. And I'm sure you're just as furious with Elayne and Nynaeve for how they used and abused Mat until Ahvi started to straighten them out, and even then they were reluctant at most. Egwene on the other hand took to honor and obligation quite well, and that's the Wise One's saying that, not me. And why would that even matter if she did use and abuse Rand? Rand goes on and on about how he MUST use people. Oh but that's Rand, so it's OK. Lets burn Egwene at the stake for doing less if any of what you're claiming she did. I mean Rand was PISSED at Egwene when the met... oh wait, no he actually disappointed he hadn't worked closer with her...

 

"I've hated you before," Rand said, turning back to Egwene. "I've felt a lot of emotions, in recent months. It seems that from the very moment Moiraine came to the Two Rivers, I've been struggling to avoid Aes Sedai strings of control. And yet, I allowed other strings—more dangerous strings—to wrap around me unseen.

"It occurs to me that I've been trying too hard. I worried that if I listened to you, you'd control me. It wasn't a desire for independence that drove me, but a fear of irrelevance. A fear that the acts I accomplished would be yours, and not my own." He hesitated. "I should have wished for such a convenient set of backs upon which to heap the blame for my crimes."

 

As for not caring about him...

He looked so lost she wanted to put his head on her shoulder, and so stubborn she really did want to box

his ears. "Listen to me, you great ox. I am going to be an Aes Sedai, and I'll find a way to help you. I will."

something more recent?

Egwene leaned forward, studying him. There didn't seem to be madness in his eyes. She knew those eyes. She knew Rand.

Light, she thought. I'm wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I'm here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.

"Which are you?" she whispered unconsciously.

He heard. "I am both, Egwene. I remember him. Lews Therin. I can see his entire life, every desperate moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. My own dream. It's part of me."

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

Even the fate of the world.

 

Suttree already pointed out her actual motives, which are nothing close to what you describe, so I won't go there.

 

So in general, you and most vitriolic Egwene haters are full of completely erroneous opinion, and have absolutely zero textual evidence to back up your hyperbolic claims.

[damandred]

I think Egwene has character, her determination, and inner strength see to that, though she is a realist and that can make her come across as cold and uncaring.

Don't get me wrong some of her self righteous holier than thou spiel gets up my nose, but to imply that she cares nothing for Rand and is only seeking her own glory is a bit unfair I think.

 

Saying she is only out for her own glory is absurd. Consolidating power in preparing the WT for the LB is not being selfish or power hungry. She has already made a good number of reforms to get the WT pointed in the right direction and her povs show clearly that she believes she is working for the greater good.

 

The fact that AS may not be the best qualified to lead the light is a separate issue entirely.

 

Not sure if your agreeing with me or have misread my post?

[Suttree]

I think Egwene has character, her determination, and inner strength see to that, though she is a realist and that can make her come across as cold and uncaring.

Don't get me wrong some of her self righteous holier than thou spiel gets up my nose, but to imply that she cares nothing for Rand and is only seeking her own glory is a bit unfair I think.

 

Saying she is only out for her own glory is absurd. Consolidating power in preparing the WT for the LB is not being selfish or power hungry. She has already made a good number of reforms to get the WT pointed in the right direction and her povs show clearly that she believes she is working for the greater good.

 

The fact that AS may not be the best qualified to lead the light is a separate issue entirely.

 

Not sure if your agreeing with me or have misread my post?

 

Agreeing and responding in kind to the post you were addressing.

[damandred]

I think Egwene has character, her determination, and inner strength see to that, though she is a realist and that can make her come across as cold and uncaring.

Don't get me wrong some of her self righteous holier than thou spiel gets up my nose, but to imply that she cares nothing for Rand and is only seeking her own glory is a bit unfair I think.

 

Saying she is only out for her own glory is absurd. Consolidating power in preparing the WT for the LB is not being selfish or power hungry. She has already made a good number of reforms to get the WT pointed in the right direction and her povs show clearly that she believes she is working for the greater good.

 

The fact that AS may not be the best qualified to lead the light is a separate issue entirely.

 

Not sure if your agreeing with me or have misread my post?

 

Agreeing and responding in kind to the post you were addressing.

 

 

Ah cool, someone agreeing with me it had to happen one day.

[Maleshub]

I don't know where to begin with Egwene, her selfish childishness, the way she had a patronizing view on everyone that has taught her what she knows, to making so many issues and matters worse by her secrets and ignorance when it comes to Rand.

 

I would think "childish selfishness," "patronizing," and "all about herself" (from later in the post) fit more with Elayne's single-minded drive for the throne. But Elayne isn't the case just yet.

 

Egwene is an Aes Sedai; and later she has 100% trust that the WT must be strong to play a role in Tarmon Gaidon. And she knows that the WT's role is secondary to that of the Dragon Reborn.

 

Egwene never came across as selfish or childish! It would take a few clear bits of evidence to justify that claim. She was faithful to Moiraine and tried to help her offer guidance to Rand (Oh .... how he needed guidance ... himself a 20-22 years old young farmer finding the DO chasing him and then people grovelling at his boots and obeying him). She was faithful and indebted to the Wise Ones for teaching her leadership and the world of dreams. And she seemed grateful to Suian for all her teaching (despite admonishing Suian for failing to follow a direct and clear order not to rescue her). I don't think there is credible evidence to outweigh her faithfulness to her teachers.

 

Ignorance ... Now that is something we can distribute by the wagonload and place on everyone's shoulders. The most ignorance falls on Rand's shoulders .... And he took help and guidance with difficulty; but most significant help came unexpected; or when he was in deep trouble that he helped bring on himself. Even Moiraine was ignorant on how to deal with the dragon reborn! I mean how can anyone not be ignorant about that; and Moiraine is the most self-sacrificing Aes Sedai. (I am looking forward to her reunion with Rand; and I can already feel the tears just thinking about it). How about taking Mat and his deadly flaw of wanting to be rid of Aes Sedai (even their healing, come on!)? Strangely, Perrin was the most sensible of the trio in dealing with Aes Sedai and Wise Ones. How about Egwene's predecessor, Elaida? Her ignorance outweighs that of the rest of the characters in the series.

 

Egwene and Rand started out as two young people in love and forced away from home. And their love (I would presume) was the first serious relationship in their lives. That first relationship never goes away even after multiple ones later on. And at the beginning, it had the making of an element of love and friendship to help them through the upcoming difficulties. But that didn't materialize; and each was forced down a different path.

 

As a novice believing the WT necessary in guiding Rand; and as a disciple of Moiraine, Egwene did her best to help Rand in the best way she felt. It would have been preposterous if she (not a year removed from her da's inn) had the foresight and wisdom to see through Rand's problems and help him through his difficult times. Her love and shoulders (as he stated later on) would have been much more helpful; but Rand viewed Egwene as Aes Sedai. He distrusted her and didn't want her help!

 

Of the original 5, she is the only one that really used Rand. All her "I know what is best for him, he's just a stupid male" attitude grated me. Nynave, I'd have thought would be the biggest annoyance in that regard, yet she never thought to use Rand, even as Aes Sedai, she wished only to save him, especially from Aes Sedai. And that thinking made her such a huge help to Rand.

 

WoT is a female-dominated world. The most powerful icon, the WT, is Women-Only club. The Women's Circle is the strong "establishment" in the Two Rivers. Andor has a Queen. The Kin in Ebou Dar are all women and the queen there is a woman. Arad Damon has an all-women council of merchants; and Far Madding is the same. Women rule Saldea, Mayne, Ghealden, Seanchan, and share power in Tarabon; and the Wise Ones are the true power in Aiel culture. In WoT, the taint on Saiden has relegated men to secondary roles ... mainly fighting and preserving the continuance of the human race.

 

So, "Ox, thinking with the hair on his chest, cannot-see-sense, etc... " views about men are what WoT is all about. And that world needs a man as savior!

 

So, Egwene's female-superiority perception hardly stands out. It is how her world functions. And despite all that background, she was there to play her role in helping the man, the Dragon Reborn, and the rest of the world win the Last Battle.

 

One of the failures Rand had was his animosity to Aes Sedai, who just happened to save his life and that of his father and village. For that alone, he should have been indebted to Moiraine; and should not have been openly rude to her. Letting her bring his food to him was vile!

 

The lesson he learned was that he needed Aes Sedai help. He cannot win the last battle and seal the bore without their help. And he needed to balance that with not falling under their control (and Elaida in all her wisdom offered him a very nice example of Aes Sedai). But he was too young to master that balance and paid the dear price. Most painful price was losing Egwene (sorry, I cannot stop coming back to that ... a weakness I guess).

 

Egwene was all about herself, becoming Aes Sedai, having influence and power. She'd never think to save Rand from herself, just use him as she saw was best. Even her thing with Gawyn, the first dream she sees with Gawyn, she witnesses the man she has loved all her life, until a few months ago, whom she still loves as a brother - cut down brutally by Gawyn. And what does she do? Forget all about that and just go all in love with someone who is REALLY a woolheaded fool without any sense of thinking once he's made his mind up. Nice judgement there.

 

Faced with a choice of learning to master Saidar or dying, she was all about being Aes Sedai. Who wouldn't be? And being one meant going to the WT and undergoing their harsh training and remolding. She was never about influence or power. She was driven by a desire to learn. She never contemplated or even thought about being Amyrlin. That was forced on her (sadly, in large part by the Black Ajah and its actions). But after being raised, she refused to be a puppet; and with Suian's help clawed her way into that role. The first thing about leadership training (Aiel or not, although Aiel are the best at it) is that one doesn't shirk the responsibility or allow others to meddle into one's domain of responsibility. And that means fighting for it with a chance, sometimes great, of failure. If Egwene didn’t want to lost her power and influence, she would not have risked her Stole going head to head against Romanda and Leliane. And she would have jumped at the first chance of rescue to go back to being "Boss!"

 

As to saving Rand from herself; it is now well-established that Rand needed to be saved from himself! Even Cadsuane and Soriela were right in what they were doing; but his stubbornness made it a very dramatic rescue. And prior to the cleansing of Saiden, everyone was justified in their fear about madness. That is why everyone was concerned, and not least of them Egwene. In fact, it seemed that up to the Lanfear incident at the docks, Egwene's persistent advice to Rand was "listen to advice!" Oh and how badly he needed that?

 

Egwene didn't have to think that she had to save Rand from herself. She knew that she was not taveren. She was someone who knew the real Rand and could talk to him. She knew him better than Min and would have been better at it; but both were too stubborn in their relationship. Min pretty much told him about the viewings and didn't object to anything he said or did. Egwene's personality is not like Min's.

 

We do agree on Gawyn! Impulsive, ignorant, blind, irrational, easily provoked, susceptible to rumor, easily manipulted, submissive, truly thinking with the sword on his hip, but hopefully redeemed in the last book. He was an emotional mess walking on earth. One day he seals Suian's fate and raises Elaida; and the next day (literally) he lets Suian escape the WT. He kills his teacher (how faithful) and conducts a harrying campaign against his mentor Byrne (how wonderfully faithful). When his world fell apart after Dumai Wells, he didn't have enough sense to simply go back to his homeland to sort things out.

 

Gawyn, the total idiot (despite being a handsome prince); and of all people she came across Egwene fell for the fool! The way I try to rationalize it is knowing how strong Egwene's personality is. The other half of her life needed to give her love and devotion and receive hers. But other than that all she really needed was a warder (in motivation and abilities).

 

But even with him, she DID NOT forget her roots. She refused to marry him without her mother and father being present. Everyone else that got married up till then didn't worry about family and friends being there!

 

Then there is the Mary Sue aspect where everything just happens to fall into place for her when she needs it to. She doesn't have the same personal journey as the rest of the protagonists. She just travels one place, succeeds, then move on and repeat.

 

No personal journey, success with every step, and blocks always falling in the right place.

Egwene's personal journey is so flushed out and detailed that I think RJ wanted her to be Rand's counter in the female world. It wasn't Moiraine who would shape the future of women in WoT; that role now falls on Egwene.

 

Do you remember how she started out in the escape from the two rivers. She was a liability throughout the first book. She was innocent, inexperience, afraid, crying over Perrin's shoulder, needing Rand to feel safe, and she was stubborn. Then she moved into the role of novice and accepted. Her personality was molded with the Aiel. Her skills honed by Suian. And her resolve tested over and over through pain and suffering.

 

The Whitecloaks imprisoned her; the Seanchan enslaved her; the Black Ajah trapped her; Lanfear was a hair's width away from destroying her; and Elaida abused her. That is hardly success with every step. If Egwene's head floated with any grand ideas of success (and I don't see that it ever did) these were very humbling experiences. And most embarrassing of all is the Halima experience. That is one to make one feel like a fool.

 

As to blocks falling the right way all the time; that would have to be Mat or Perrin. Mat's luck is known; but Perrin was on a personal mission to rescue his over-ambitious wife, who didn't mind being fondled by an Aiel to help her survive (and I think he couldn't force anything on her without her will. After all he was honorable). And Perrin was like a hound with only Faile's scent in the world to guide him. He used his people, the Maynar, the Ghealden, the Aiel, and Ashaman to save his woman. But the blocks all fell in place … The Shaido banished, Maseema killed, the Whitecloaks under control, the Seanchan doing his bidding. Heck, he gave the Seanchan 200 slaves to save Faile (DAMN; but that grates).

 

Second to Egwene is Faile, she started with promise, but by the time she was taken by the Shaido I had lost a lot of interest in her.

 

 

If any of these 2 dies in the last book, I can't really feel sad for them.

 

I've mentioned Faile above. She is self-centered, over-ambitious, and impulsive. But she loves Perrin and is his greatest weakness. But I wouldn't want her to die. Perrin needs her; and Rand needs Perrin.

 

Favourite women are Nynave and Avi by far. They got temper and initiative but are also able to think and act rationally when needed.

 

Elayne is somewhat in between. She has great moments, and some facepalming ones.

 

Nynaeve's personal journey is great. I love the way she developed without losing her core: compassion and healing. And Aviendha has so many "If only" instances with Rand that it pains. The idiot Rand didn't realize that she loved him; and he thought that their love in Seanchan was a crime he committed. He was simply blind to the degree that he hurt her. And she didn't help herself by always setting a higher standard for herself. And Brandon better make up for lost time in the Rand – Aviendha relationship. Min has had him for too long; and Elayne is preoccupied with being a queen. Aviendha and Rand need to save what can be saved of the Aiel.

 

 

I think Egwene has character, her determination, and inner strength see to that, though she is a realist and that can make her come across as cold and uncaring.

Don't get me wrong some of her self righteous holier than thou spiel gets up my nose, but to imply that she cares nothing for Rand and is only seeking her own glory is a bit unfair I think. Her reaction to her test for Accepted and refusal to kill Nicola tells me her hearts in the right place.

I think what annoys people the most about her is the unrealistic way she goes from being a inn keepers daughter in a small village in to a political animal in just two years, most of which she was to busy hunting black AS ect. I mean COME ON she's not only one of the best channellers she can debate history with the Brown, logic with the white understand war strategy and more. Not possible.

 

I totally agree with paragraphs 1 and 2. But I think paragraph 2 needs to take into account the time she's spent learning. It seems that Egwene has been novice and apprentice more than any other character. And even after being raised as Amyrlin, she was still being tutored by Suian. Of all the main characters, she has spent the most time trying to learn her way into her role. How many years of total training did she have compared to the others?

 

What sufficient learning did Rand get to become the dragon? Mat got his "son of battles" from an accidental wish in a ter'angreal. And Perrin blundered his way into accepting leadership (which is like 10 steps behind Egwene and Rand, who both accepted responsibility from the start).