[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[Red2111]

wait a minute BG

 

Since when do watchers and trackers get a list of every night action anyways? Is that common at DM? Seems incredibly overpowered.

I agree. Never seen it before, and given Kaes early reveal I'm suspicious still.

 

 

thoguht you said you'd never seen it before. but now your saying

 

Your results do concern me as it helps me to vet you in my own mind if truth is spoken. Many of your results can be given from insider mafia knowledge, especially if the mafia has a tracker/watcher type. I've been on a mafia team that had both before. So, until I see a list of who was targeted last night. I say nothing. RBing AND silencing Kae seems like overkill mafia.

 

Vote Red

 

 

either you've never seen the roles combined before or you've been on a scum team with both. which is it BG because you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

 

to the bolded, funny how your claiming finder and want the list of peolpe who were targetted. which could mean a number of things. i just find it wiered that a proclaimed finder is more interested in the list of those who were targetted rather than the list of NA's used.

 

 

to the italics - it's not overkill if they plan on trying to off one of us today so they can NK the other tonight.

[Niniel]

Hi guys!

 

I realized that I only wrote this in the other game I´m in. It has been hectic the last couple of days and today is my birthday. I hope I can catch up tomorrow.

[Red2111]

gah the part i was after in Cauthons quote should have been underlined, not in italics.

[mmeeshal]

didn't realize my browser ate the rest of my post

 

 

Meesh, thats a bit of an over reaction imo. i'm simply pointing out that i dislike your reasoining for thinking Verb is a good lynch candidate. if there was somehing on thread to point to (which i realize there isn't because he's been inactive) then i wouldn't say anything.

 

but to suggest that the only reason he hasn't been replaced is because he's active on a QT board doesn't sit well with me. i can't relly explain why it doesn't sit well because this is more of a gut reaction to what your suggesting.

Well, I was just reacting to what I did see, not the rest of what you said, since I didn't see it. =P That wasn't my only reason for wanting to put pressure on him, but I did want to clarify that simply not being able to post on DM wasn't entirely an out, IMO. And I wasn't suggesting that was the only reason. Convenient how you ignored the rest of that post where I said it does seem more likely that Ama just wasn't aware of his inability to post and his need for a replacement. But we can't rule out any possibilities, can we? I had a thought, and I wanted to share it. I would think that's a good thing in this game. If everyone shares their thoughts, it's easier to catch scum, IMO.

[mmeeshal]

Interesting point @ BG, Red...I didn't understand it that way, though. I thought he was saying that he's never seen it where watchers and trackers get lists like that--normally you just target one person and get results on them when you're watcher or tracker, right?

 

And then he was saying he'd been on a mafia team with a tracker and watcher before. He didn't say "I've been on a team with Red and Kae's claimed role before." So yeah. It isn't a stretch to believe he's never seen a tracker/watcher team that got lists of EVERY person targeted and EVERY action done every night. I haven't seen it either. And I've heard of mafia teams with tracker/watcher type roles myself. Haven't been on one, but I've heard of them.

 

Anyway, it IS interesting that BG wants to see the list first...however...what with there being a switcher role and whatnot, that's not too far-fetched. I dunno at this point. Obviously I don't exactly trust BG, but assuming he's telling the truth, it doesn't seem too off.

[dapianoplay3r]

Your results do concern me as it helps me to vet you in my own mind if truth is spoken. Many of your results can be given from insider mafia knowledge, especially if the mafia has a tracker/watcher type. I've been on a mafia team that had both before. So, until I see a list of who was targeted last night. I say nothing. RBing AND silencing Kae seems like overkill mafia. Vote Red

 

Aren't both roles ambiguous? So they could be either town or mafia controlled

 

Anyway I dont think the mafia would waste two roles on her (even with such a big power) because silencing wouldn't do much since she can still kind of talk through Red and the RB would take out her real strength anyway.

So to be targeted by both leads me to think, like what red said, they are trying to off one of them today then NK or that the scum knew that both results together would reveal something. Something big. Like a false finder perhaps?

[Red2111]

That wasn't my only reason for wanting to put pressure on him, but I did want to clarify that simply not being able to post on DM wasn't entirely an out, IMO. And I wasn't suggesting that was the only reason. Convenient how you ignored the rest of that post where I said it does seem more likely that Ama just wasn't aware of his inability to post and his need for a replacement. But we can't rule out any possibilities, can we? I had a thought, and I wanted to share it. I would think that's a good thing in this game. If everyone shares their thoughts, it's easier to catch scum, IMO.

 

i never said posting ones thoughts aren't good, you should know that i do this alot in game so to imply that i meant sharing thoughts was a bad thing is a bit too much. all i said was i disliked that way of thinking and instead of getting snarky about it (because i'm PMSing) i'm just gonna leave it at that because i'd rather avoid a long drawn out arguement that wont help find scum.

 

 

to the underlined - but that was the only reason in both posts that you posted. my interpretation of your posts combined (focusing only on the bits directly abotu Verb) was that you were suspicous of him being really inactive yet not being replaced, that the reason for him not being replaced could be that he's active on a QT board, and that your open for him being a lynch candidate. this is the ONLY reason you list for wanting to look at Verb. i'm not a mind reader, if you don't post what else you find him lynch worthy for i can't take it into consideration for why you think he's a lynch candidate. (i'm not being snarky or a smart ass here so please don't take it that way)

 

 

further more, this is using purely meta on a reason to be okay with pressuring someone; somethign i'm very outspoken against. for the next quote, my responses are in Blue

 

Interesting point @ BG, Red...I didn't understand it that way, though. I thought he was saying that he's never seen it where watchers and trackers get lists like that--normally you just target one person and get results on them when you're watcher or tracker, right?

 

And then he was saying he'd been on a mafia team with a tracker and watcher before. He didn't say "I've been on a team with Red and Kae's claimed role before." So yeah. It isn't a stretch to believe he's never seen a tracker/watcher team that got lists of EVERY person targeted and EVERY action done every night. I haven't seen it either. And I've heard of mafia teams with tracker/watcher type roles myself. Haven't been on one, but I've heard of them.

 

 

thats why i stated me and Kae are a 'Neighborhood Watch' team. one of us gets a list of NA's used that night, the other gets a list of people targetted. the lists are seperate and we are not told which NA targetted who. so we're sorta like a Watcher/Tracker team, but not.

 

as for BG, thats not how i read it. i saw it as him saying he's never seen the combo put together, but then turning aroudn and saying he's seen that combo on a scum team. which is a contradiction and to me, looks liek he just trying to discredit our claim; which i expect to happen from scum since they saw fit to RB and Silence my partner.

 

Anyway, it IS interesting that BG wants to see the list first...however...what with there being a switcher role and whatnot, that's not too far-fetched. I dunno at this point. Obviously I don't exactly trust BG, but assuming he's telling the truth, it doesn't seem too off.

the only reason he' want a list of names targetted would be to make sure whoever he claims to have viewed was on it imo. a switcher doesn't make a difference as botht he switchers targets would be on the list as well; so this defense of BG doesn't hold water imo.

 

 

also, want to point this out. you've been the most outspoken against BG, even with his claim; now your tentatively defending him in this entire post. from what he meant by the comments on the watcher/tracker to why he'd want to see the list of names before the list of targets. yet with the underline, you leave yourself open to still continue your attack on BG and distance yourself from him. whenever i see fence posting like this, it always pings hard core.

[Nynaeve]

Your results do concern me as it helps me to vet you in my own mind if truth is spoken. Many of your results can be given from insider mafia knowledge, especially if the mafia has a tracker/watcher type. I've been on a mafia team that had both before. So, until I see a list of who was targeted last night. I say nothing. RBing AND silencing Kae seems like overkill mafia.

 

Vote Red

 

Why do you want the list of who was targeted specifically? It troubles me. You don't know what list Red got. So you could have asked for whatever list Red was handed. Or, alternatively if you don't buy Kae being role blocked and silenced then you could have demanded both lists. And yet your focus right now is on the list of people that were targeted. Seems rather fishy.

 

 

 

Nyn

[mmeeshal]

Meh, it's not really fence-sitting on BG, per se. I have nothing but my gut feelings based on his Day 1 actions to say he's scum, and tons of other stuff to say he's telling the truth. I can't fight against no counterclaim, a supposed finding of BG himself that has him as lightsworn, and the death of the scum godfather which means that can't really be BG's role, so unless Maw is lying and we have a REALLY good finder, BG has to be telling the truth.

 

BUT, I can't just lie down and take it for granted. That would be silly. Fact of the matter is, he DID ping me hardcore on D1, and hasn't done much on his own to allay that suspicion. So yeah, I don't take everything he says for granted, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna jump all over everything he says, either.

 

You're failing to take into account the fact that I was very suspicious of Kae before your reveals, so I'm not taking YOUR alignment for granted, either. So if I see an unfair interpretation of what someone was saying, yeah, I'm gonna point it out. I'm not being inconsistent when I say I dislike it when people do that. It is very hard to defend against a twisting of words rather than outright accusations.

 

Anyway: How could you see BG saying he'd never seen the combo before, when as you yourself quoted, he was agreeing with Cuathon about the list thing and not the combo of roles? Please read those two posts/quotes and tell me where BG said he'd never seen the combo of watcher and tracker. Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you on that, because you're seeing things that aren't even there.

[mmeeshal]

For support:

 

Since when do watchers and trackers get a list of every night action anyways? Is that common at DM? Seems incredibly overpowered.

I agree. Never seen it before, and given Kaes early reveal I'm suspicious still.

 

Nowhere does BG say "I've never seen watchers and trackers together."

[mmeeshal]

In regards to Verb: so, what--are we supposed to let every unreplaced inactive just fly through the game with no pressure whatsoever? I didn't know Verb couldn't post on thread, so yeah, pressuring him doesn't work as well as I would have hoped it would, but I didn't know that at the time, did I? I have better things to do than stalking ewoks.

 

Anyway, if an inactive isn't replaced, then even if they're legitimately inactive and not just lurking, that doesn't make them automatic town. If Verbal had more access to DM, then I still would see nothing wrong with his inactivity being a reason to vote for him and pressure him into hopefully saying something.

 

And that was my other reason for him being a lynch/pressure candidate. Not his lack of replacement, but his inactivity on its own. Similar though they might be, they're not the same thing. The inactivity thing no longer holds water in light of his lack of access, but the meta thing...well...I get you don't like meta, but I personally don't have a problem with it. Sometimes, it's what you have to go on.

[bgrishinko]

I thought it was pretty straight forward I was referring to the lists and not the watcher/tracker being together as a Neighborhood Watch team Red... ya know... considering Cuathon said nothing about the team aspect. Two different points completely.

 

As for wanting the list, I know who I targeted. You do not. Therefore if the name is on the list of who I targeted, I have more reason to believe you. Course IF Kae was blocked then I can understand you not wanting to say, as you said you want to leave it WIFOMY about who has what role... but leaves me at an impasse still about the truthfulness of your claims.

 

@Ama, I didn't say I 100% didn't believe both happened to Kae, I said it seems like it would be wasteful from a mafia perspective. Also the roles list isn't important to me in vetting them, so I didn't ask for it. I want to see if they saw the person I visited get visited, simple as that. This being blocked thing makes it convenient not to reveal and keeps them protected if they are lying. My interest is in finding if they are lying or not.

[bgrishinko]

Oh hey. Ninja Meesh got me.

[Nolder]

checking in

not sure if im up to mafiaing much today

im beat up from disneyland

[bgrishinko]

Oh poor Nolder. Got worn out being forced to spend all that time in the Happiest Place on Earth...

 

EDIT: Forgot my smiley face.

[John E. Kelley]

<<<--- Ishy's idea of Red pms'ing.....

[Nynaeve]

BG I understand where you're coming from but I'm sure you can see how it can be seen as the same way from the other direction, aka you wanting to see the list so you don't risk saying a name that doesn't appear there. The thing is that in Red and Kae's case... they can be vetted out by a number of people. Aka, every townie with a role would know if they're bluffing if the full list of targeted people is supplied. In your case, however, it's a lot less evident (especially with re-direction excuses) and Red and Kae's list could be the only way to know if you are what you claim.

 

In any case, I tend to believe Red and Kae's claim. Specifically because when I had my theory about Spirit being forced to vote BG, Kae posted right after saying that Spirit was not on the targeted list. Scum might have taken advantage of such an opening (after all, all she needed to do was stay quiet) but instead she made it clear it wasn't possible and we ended up bagging scum.

 

 

a switcher doesn't make a difference as botht he switchers targets would be on the list as well; so this defense of BG doesn't hold water imo.

 

This got me thinking....If I understand what you said correctly, that would mean that my name should be on the targeted list you and Kae got on Night 1. If I remember right, Kae only revealed a couple of the names you got on the targeted report. BG, Soy and... Nolder, maybe? But she didn't reveal the rest. So, if Levity was telling the truth at the time and she (aka Cauton now) is a re-director.... and indeed redirected BG's viewing to me....then my name should be there. It would be nice to know if it was, to confirm him as a re-director. And if it's not... it could raise some interesting questions.

 

So yeah, I'm really looking forward to hear if my name was on the list. Might give us a new lead.

 

 

 

 

Nyn

[bgrishinko]

Nice turn around on wanting to hear the list of names Nyn.... just saying. First you say I look odd for wanting to know, then you ask for it too.

 

Now I have a different question for Red. If Kae was RB'd... why didn't you tell us there was a RB yesterday on your list? I know there was 2 that you didn't mention... but why hide RB? I HIGHLY doubt a RB wouldn't have used their power on N1.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nynaeve]

lol First of all, I'm asking about the list from night 1, not of night 2. Secondly, I'm asking for one name to confirm someone's role. You are holding out on your viewings while asking for the complete list of night 2 when you know all too well that: 1. It would tell scum what list Red gets and 2. Not seeing the list before you reveal who you viewed could bury you. So, I'm going to go on the limb here and say that it's two very different requests.

 

 

 

 

Nyn

[Red2111]

i did mention a RBer being on the list BG, i listed all the actions off our list that could be negative to the town if you recall.

 

heres a list of peopel targetted on N1

 

Meesh

Red

Nolder

BG

Soy

Corrosive

Nyn

Key

Hoof

[bgrishinko]

I'll have to go back and check again, I musta missed it. Apologies if I did.

[Red2111]

here i'll quote it for you BG.

 

we;re a neighbor hood watch team, we get a tracker report (list of all NA's submitted each night) and a watcher report (list of the people targeted). we aren't told who targetted who; but our lists can help figure out false role claims and if a person is being truthful about who they targetted. the only down side is that we're not informed if there are dulpicate roles or how many times a person is targetted, and or 28 players, i think we have some repeating roles. hopefully this quells some confusion.

 

also, major FoS @ Turin for trying to dig out whose on the lists. it just feels like your trying to cover yourself for a role claim later, which is scummy imo. you seem to really want to know what roles are on that list and i really dislike that. i only listed roles off the list which i felt were anti-town in nature; i forgot to list Blocker as well. Right now, 5 of the NA's we have listed are anti-town in nature imo

 

- NK (which we know Hoof was the target via Corner Report)

- Blocker

- Re-Director

- Vote Controller

- Silencer

 

 

the Blocker, RD & VC i've seen as both Town and Scum, yet becuase of the nature of their roles, they can cause just as much damage regaurdless of alignment.

 

but the Silence role and NK are most likely scum aligned. as i'm not caught up yet i can't determine why they'd target Nol (either to shut him up as town or to try and clear him as scum) but Meesh's actions still scream scum for calling attention to it reguardless of what her reason was.

 

since Kae was blocked, i'm revising my opinion to the Blocker being a scum role. which means we have a very good idea of what roles the scum are likely to have.

 

 

 

also BG, how convient for you to forget i mentioned a Blocker being on the list. not hat a role being left off the N1 list but appearing on a later list is any indication as we only recieve a list of actions submitted that night. seems liek your pushing VERY hard to make me seem scummy and to push doubt on mine and Kaes claim.

 

 

not to mention, if you didn't buy my claim or KKaes why not view one of us instead? you wanting to use the list to verify our claim is imo faulty

[Nynaeve]

*nods* Thanks Red.

 

I guess that supports it then. Levity mentioned re-directing it to me without Red and Kae mentioning my name at the time. Though it's sort of a dead end, really, as far as catching someone in a lie.

 

 

 

Nyn

[Red2111]

and i'm not ignoring your other post BG or Meeshs, i just dont have time right now to quote and respond properly cause i'm off work. will either get to them tomorrow or later tonight if my home CPU cooperates

[bgrishinko]

Okay, got ninjad. Went back and found it too. I was looking at your earlier reveal. You think I'd be that sloppy as mafia to miss that?

 

Also, who says I didn't view one of you?