[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[bgrishinko]

Day one for me is all about instinct and feelings. I think this Day 1 discussion of appropriate ways to play is all blah blah blah and I don't really care. Everyone plays their own way. Some like to joke vote, some don't. Some like trains, some don't... yadda yadda. If we all agreed on the same way to play it, then nothing would ever get done on Day 1. So I'm perfectly happy having everyone play it the way they want to play it.

 

That being said, rarely will you find anything substantial or conclusive on Day 1. Occasionally there will be a rare slip or something, but chances are no. Who FoS'd who, who trained when, how and why? It all blends together town and mafia.... therefore it comes back to feelings to me.

 

Therefore Levity and yourself have given me the most weary feelings.

 

You were in a discussion with Red and didn't want to inturrupt that, so I'd thought I'd put my say on Lev.

 

If you want, I can move to you and we can go from there.

 

 

This is what bothers me the most, held off saying anything until I could go back and read... Not once have you mentioned any suspicions about Ley in this game then you vote Ley citing no reason (claiming you didn't want to interrupt an ongoing discussion ). Then meesh calls you on that and asks for some reasoning, and you give the above response all of the sudden finding meesh suspicious as well. Also note you haven't made any FoS's, or any kind of comment hinting at suspicion of meesh, either. But all the sudden she's suspicious, right after she questions you on your non-reasoned vote?

 

Upgrading my FoS to a vote. Unvote. Vote BG.

 

In post update:

 

Okay, if you feel that strongly I'll go and find whatever it was that gave me weird feelings on Lev if that makes you happy.

 

Also I said it was IMPLIED about the pushing hard and badgering comment. . i.e. "I think he did what he had to, to get you to blow up like that" sounds very much to me like "He did what he had to, to make sure his family was safe" in an action movie trailer after some explosion or something. Its the kind of wordplay that implies things, but it may not be intentional, so I just wanted to set the record straight.

 

If you don't even remember off the top of your head what made you put a vote on someone (that wasn't a joke vote) then should you have even put a vote there? This smells like you wanted to sneak a vote in, got called out for having no reasoning, and now are scrambling to make it seem legitimate... only reinforces my decision for voting you.

 

Uh huh. I don't like flying under the radar. If you notice I didn't even really start playing here until a few pages back. You'll find my Back from Break post and you'll see my Warning on the 1st or 2nd page that I wouldn't be around as such my Levity vote was my 1st real post of the game. No FoSs, no comments, no whatevers anywhere. It started there. I'm not unique in using this tactic to start, mind you. I'm not a big FoSer. I will occasionally throw one out there, but most time I just vote. So all of this "all of a sudden", "sneak votes" stuff is moot. I'm not scrambling. I think very carefully (most the time) about what I say. I'm sticking to my guns. I felt bad vibes from those two. Chose to go after one (Lev) cause they were quieter and not as recently engaged in conversation. The other (Meesh) perked up instead, so I went with it.

 

 

I said I'm playing off feelings here, as such there isn't much to see and quote and I need to go back and figure out what gave me the feelings when asked about it. But in the end, it just reinforces what I said before... Day 1 rarely has something you can pin on someone, just overall feelings. Especially after catching up on 10 pages I missed. Therefore I don't have something off the top of my head, plus I haven't addressed Lev cause I've been a bit engaged in the Meesh discussion lately.

[Nolder]

Can we end this whole argument please? I'm pretty sure this is just townie on townie violence and it's getting emotional IMO. I think several players are being allowed to slip under the radar because of this. IIRC we haven't heard anything from Ed or Levity in awhile. Nyn and Verbal too.

[bgrishinko]

Fair enough. I will wait and see what future days hold. Now i should go back and find what bugged me about levity. Don't remember exactly where it was Exactly. Right, meesh, truce for a bit?

[mmeeshal]

I made all the points I wanted to make. Didn't do it nearly well enough, but I have nothing more to say anyway.

[mmeeshal]

I'm probably going to try and be scarce with the posting for a while, too, FYI.

 

REALLY rough time emotionally for me, plus it's coming on the end of the semester and I'm not doing too hot in my classes. This is kind of my outlet right now, but that's probably not helping much, so I'll just kind of go hide in a hole and deal with my issues on my own.

 

Dunno if I'll succeed at staying away; old habits die hard and all that...but I think I need to at least try.

[Red2111]

okay so getting the game back on track

 

Welcome Turin! And Spirit - just play, then you'll know in the next game more of how everybody's going to react. I'm pretty new in mafia too.

 

Vote Nolder

I think he's being rather too aggressive.

 

lets not forget this scummy post, theres been more than enough time for her to answer and her silence speakes like scum hoping the cover of the BG/Meesh fiasco will make it go away.

 

 

Vote Levity

 

also, i haven't seen BG answer this decently, what caused the vote; especially since it's after Dinna's scummy vote.

[Matty boii]

Sorry guys, I haven't felt my input was needed so far. I feel I need to at least contribute a post though to let everyone know I'm not dead. I would just like to say though, with Nodlers' last post, he seems rushed to get the argument over, either he wants D1 over so that he can get to the NK someone stage, or I'm just interpreting his post wrong. It seems slightly scummy? FoS at Nodler...

[Nolder]

@Red: Skimming?

@Corrosive: Not really I just don't think BG or Meesh are very scummy and their argument is just dragging on and on and taking up the spotlight. I want to hear from other people who haven't been as active such as yourself.

[Matty boii]

I see your point Nodler, but still, it seems suspicious :|

[Verbal32]

And again, guys, I HATE HATE HATE it when people misrepresent my actions/words, so when they do, I go out of my way to correct the situation--I don't care if that makes me look scummy for overreaction--as long as people have their facts straight, then that's up to them to use their own judgment.

 

But too many people rely on other people's judgment and opinions without drawing their own conclusions, and I've seen really good arguments totally torn apart and ignored because some vocal people disagreed and decided to say so, and not very nicely. I've been the victim of it--I totally knew someone was scum, there were so many facts to support it, and I argued those points and I cried for the town to lynch her, but she worked very hard to discredit me by attacking my playstyle and by metagaming, and her scumbuddies TOTALLY ignored everything I was saying and acted as if what I was saying was ridiculous and a temper tantrum. No one else even acknowledged my points, someone else was lynched, I was NKed, and the mafia won.

 

Since it's happened to me first hand, and worked, I do my darnedest not to let it happen again, at least not to me.

 

My impression is that I believe this post. I also agree with Nolder in that this appears to be townie vs townie. FOS both Meesh & BG for the potential of a clever plot. Just has to be said, hehe.

[Red2111]

no Nol not skimming; BG said he'd dig up why he found Levity worth voting and has yet to produce that; i'm interested in seeing that as i'd like to know whats scummier than Dinnas vote.

 

 

[WWWwombat]

is it just me or is blackhoof agreeing with everyone?

 

Yeah, what a slimy slimeball.

not what I was saying...

 

Then what were you trying to say?

exactly what I said

 

I'm going to go back a bit because this bothered me. If you weren't trying to imply that Blackhoof was scummy for agreeing with everyone, then why did you even comment at all? I also find all this jumping all over BG for his Levity vote to be very interesting.

[Nolder]

no Nol not skimming; BG said he'd dig up why he found Levity worth voting and has yet to produce that; i'm interested in seeing that as i'd like to know whats scummier than Dinnas vote.

I'm talking more about Ledinnas vote as she did just explain it and unvote

 

If you weren't trying to imply that Blackhoof was scummy for agreeing with everyone, then why did you even comment at all? I also find all this jumping all over BG for his Levity vote to be very interesting.

I found it odd and was wondering if other people noted the same behavior

it's not necessarily a scummy thing

could easily point to third party

 

I have nothing to do with BG/Levity

[amegakure]

Nothing really new to add gona unvote soo

 

@verbal any other thoughts on the game?

[Blackhoof]

@corrosive: so, you are saying that if he was mafia-buddies with Meesh, he could be stopping the argument since he might fear her lynch withotu lookign like he is directly defending her?

[mmeeshal]

@corrosive: so, you are saying that if he was mafia-buddies with Meesh, he could be stopping the argument since he might fear her lynch withotu lookign like he is directly defending her?

You forgot the other option for that question, Hoof. I don't think I was on my way to a lynch, so it could have very easily been BG.

 

Personally, I kinda thought Nol's post was weird as well. I don't want to go so far as to say he's on a team with BG atm, but it was very very strange, and the timing, too. Things had settled down quite a bit, and valid points were restated, and then Nol comes in with "OMG, you guys are going crazy, and I think it's just town on town violence, stop fighting, this is painful and unproductive, omg!!!" It was, again, timed very interestingly. The tone of his post and his reaction weren't really valid at all anymore. It was also said right after Boyo made very clear the points that I myself had been trying to communicate. Not sure if that was a coincidence or if maybe Nol wanted to discredit the points made against BG by tagging them with the word "violence" and making it sound like a bunch of personal attacks. Interesting move. Not really taking sides, but shoving the issue under the rug without giving credence or consideration to ANY of the points made. BG agreed very readily, too.

 

I notice hardly anyone has actually given thoughts on Boyo's post; I think it's dumb but at least I understand people not taking my posts seriously because I was irritated, but Boyo wasn't exactly being attacked by BG and had no emotional investment in the discussion and he stated exactly what I was getting at but was clearly unable to successfully articulate. If a third party to the argument/discussion/whatever noticed something and stated it, why isn't it getting more attention?

 

Actually, I'm going to quote Boyo's post, since I really feel like there is something there with BG and people have been either ignoring it or have been actively trying to derail it.

[mmeeshal]

Day one for me is all about instinct and feelings. I think this Day 1 discussion of appropriate ways to play is all blah blah blah and I don't really care. Everyone plays their own way. Some like to joke vote, some don't. Some like trains, some don't... yadda yadda. If we all agreed on the same way to play it, then nothing would ever get done on Day 1. So I'm perfectly happy having everyone play it the way they want to play it.

 

That being said, rarely will you find anything substantial or conclusive on Day 1. Occasionally there will be a rare slip or something, but chances are no. Who FoS'd who, who trained when, how and why? It all blends together town and mafia.... therefore it comes back to feelings to me.

 

Therefore Levity and yourself have given me the most weary feelings.

 

You were in a discussion with Red and didn't want to inturrupt that, so I'd thought I'd put my say on Lev.

 

If you want, I can move to you and we can go from there.

 

 

This is what bothers me the most, held off saying anything until I could go back and read... Not once have you mentioned any suspicions about Ley* in this game then you vote Ley* citing no reason (claiming you didn't want to interrupt an ongoing discussion ). Then meesh calls you on that and asks for some reasoning, and you give the above response all of the sudden finding meesh suspicious as well. Also note you haven't made any FoS's, or any kind of comment hinting at suspicion of meesh, either. But all the sudden she's suspicious, right after she questions you on your non-reasoned vote?

 

Upgrading my FoS to a vote. Unvote. Vote BG.

 

In post update:

 

Okay, if you feel that strongly I'll go and find whatever it was that gave me weird feelings on Lev if that makes you happy.

 

Also I said it was IMPLIED about the pushing hard and badgering comment. . i.e. "I think he did what he had to, to get you to blow up like that" sounds very much to me like "He did what he had to, to make sure his family was safe" in an action movie trailer after some explosion or something. Its the kind of wordplay that implies things, but it may not be intentional, so I just wanted to set the record straight.

 

If you don't even remember off the top of your head what made you put a vote on someone (that wasn't a joke vote) then should you have even put a vote there? This smells like you wanted to sneak a vote in, got called out for having no reasoning, and now are scrambling to make it seem legitimate... only reinforces my decision for voting you.

 

BG responded that he hadn't had much presence in the game prior to his vote on *Levity, so the FoS bit was invalid--I can't exactly call BS on that so whatever. The first paragraph of Boyo's post is what I was getting at, though--it was the timing and the nature of BG's response that is fishy. His post basically implied somehow that I knew I was a suspect and that I was trying to discredit his vote by asking what his reasons were. And totally shifted focus off of him and onto me.

 

Just rereading this post, I think I can kind of point out what terms and things BG was using to twist my question and make it look like I was always suspicious and was more so because of my question. Or at least point out what made ME take it that way.

 

I asked why he voted Levity. He talks about his instincts and feelings, and then says "Therefore, Levity and yourself have given me the most wary feelings." To me, that came across like "in answer to your question, this is why I find she and you suspicious." My question was about Levity, not me, because I had no idea I was a suspect of BG's when I asked it...but then... "If you want" which makes it sound like I DIDN'T want his vote to be on Levity, a sentiment I never expressed, "I can move to you and we can go from there." Which is like "aha, what are you going to do now? pressure's on you."

 

All that is responding as if I'd said things I didn't. Squeezing meaning out of a simple question that wasn't there. All in response to that simple question. He could've just said "Well, I'm just going based on feelings and instinct here, and Levity is giving me wary feelings. So are you, by the way." Simple, answers the question, no room for misinterpretation....

 

I'm only posting this after all because I think this gives a more solid reasoning from my point of view so at least people can see where I'm coming from, if not agree with me. Not trying to beat a dead horse--pointing out, for the first time, exactly what terminology it was that I was reacting to that no one else seemed to notice.

 

If you guys DARE tell me I'm being redundant or bringing up something with no reason whatsoever, I'm going to go bash my head on a wall, kthx. I'm not planning on arguing this particular issue any longer, since now I've finally been able to put my finger on exactly what it was that pinged me so hard, and it's up to everyone else now to determine whether or not I was just misunderstanding or if there *might* be something there.

 

That is all.

[mmeeshal]

Going in and editing to put underlining in there so you people who don't take time to read long posts will see the important bits (although I'd like to think reading the entire thing is necessary, but whatever).

[Amadine]

corrected in next count

[mmeeshal]

Hey, Ama, I am not sure of any of the other votes, but I *think* at least Hoof is voting for me?

 

I guess I can just ask if the vote count is correct, since I have a niggling feeling there might be something else off with the votecount, too, and that may not be mod error. XD

[amegakure]

unvote ed

[Blackhoof]

interesting. did amadine mix you and BG up or is some sort of vote-switcher playing with the votes?

[Levity]

... Oh my God. I am so sorry.

 

Nngh, I have so much catching up to do...

[Nolder]

@corrosive: so, you are saying that if he was mafia-buddies with Meesh, he could be stopping the argument since he might fear her lynch withotu lookign like he is directly defending her?

You forgot the other option for that question, Hoof. I don't think I was on my way to a lynch, so it could have very easily been BG.

 

Personally, I kinda thought Nol's post was weird as well. I don't want to go so far as to say he's on a team with BG atm, but it was very very strange, and the timing, too. Things had settled down quite a bit, and valid points were restated, and then Nol comes in with "OMG, you guys are going crazy, and I think it's just town on town violence, stop fighting, this is painful and unproductive, omg!!!" It was, again, timed very interestingly. The tone of his post and his reaction weren't really valid at all anymore. It was also said right after Boyo made very clear the points that I myself had been trying to communicate. Not sure if that was a coincidence or if maybe Nol wanted to discredit the points made against BG by tagging them with the word "violence" and making it sound like a bunch of personal attacks. Interesting move. Not really taking sides, but shoving the issue under the rug without giving credence or consideration to ANY of the points made. BG agreed very readily, too.

I dunno what you find odd about the timing exactly but you're very right that I am "shoving the issue under the rug without giving credence or consideration to any of the points made"

in other words I'm not reading any of your or BGs posts regarding each other

[mmeeshal]

@Nol--First of all, I'd ask why but I don't think there would be any satisfactory answer, there--not reading things in a mafia game is scummy, regardless of circumstance. You never know what you might miss.

 

Secondly, the timing was weird because as I said, your post was totally irrelevant--we weren't attacking each other, the posts being made at that time were calm and rational, but you made it out to be like we were in the middle of a war, which we weren't.

 

Thirdly, if you didn't read my posts or BG's about each other, did you read Boyo's, at least? He had no stake in the discussion like myself and BG.