Two Rivers to rise as Manetheren?

[ANkhUp]

Greetings,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I am almost done with TOM. I just hit the part where Elayne agreed to let the Two rivers be it's own nation (Rand in control, and Perrin as steward/High Lord)

 

I've seen a few posts about this, in threads. But no threads dedicated to this.

 

I for one, would love to see Manetheren rise again. I like spoilers.. idk why, i have something to anticipate and to see how it unfolds and know it as it happens. I doubt it will be renamed to Manetheren by the time i finish TOM.

 

I was hoping/wondering if anyone had any information that the Two Rivers would be renamed Manetheren? I know its just a name.. but i really want Manetheren to rise again.

 

Thanks

[baalsmistress]

It would be cool, but I have the feeling that the nation of Manetheren is a feature of another point on the wheel, and we will not be seeing the red eagle banner raised again.

 

Just as we will not see a return to the Age of Legends after the Great Lord of the Dark is safely sealed away behind the no longer present bore. But we will see a new age, perhaps the last age with channellers before the art of channelling is lost altogether.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't see any reason manetheren wouldn't rise again.

 

just won't be written about unless there's a long epi.

[Spirit1025]

I don't think Perrin is likely to try to raise Manetheren from the dead, but Faile could be willing. When Morgase says that she will speak to Elayne on their behalf for getting Perrin officially given the title of Lord of the Two Rivers (A Backhanded Request, page 659 in the hardcover) , Faile says, "But we will decide, with Her Majesty, whether bestowing titles is the...proper course at this point." Then Perrin wonders whether or not she was still considering splitting the Two Rivers from Andor, and there is mention made that she encouraged the use of the Manetheren banner. I think she will make a big push for it. He might do it to make her happy, but I don't think he has any ambition to be a king.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

could be done in his memory, or his honor.

 

enough forshadowing there. could be red herrings but you never know.

[mb]

Have not yet read the book, but did skim through various parts of it.

 

In the exact scene, both Faile and Perrin promise not to rise up Manetheren.

Neither of them break any promise.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

neither of them is immortal.

[Suttree]

Elayne did not agree to let the Two Rivers be it's own nation. It is still part of Andor but since it is the seat of the DR it is exempt from taxes with money instead paid into a fund that would be held "against the return of the Lord Dragon." which the Steward would have access to. Rand is the High lord(ranks above other nobility), Perrin is his Steward although it remains to be seen if Rand will ever take his seat. If Elayne was to call her banners however Perrin and those sworn to him would be obligated to come.

[mb]

If Manetheren ever gets re-raised, I would guess several generations after all main characters die at the earliest.

[David Selig]

Honestly, even if Two Rivers become a separate country, which will probably happen at some point in the future, calling in Manetheren would be somewhat ridiculous. It's been 2000 years and before Moiraine and later Verin told them, none of those living there had any idea of the history of Manetheren.

[ANkhUp]

I specifcily remember Elayne saying the two rivers would be their own nation (She would give the Two Rivers to Rand, and I vividly remember the word nation - I dont have book with me, im at work) I'll try to find it when i get home. As for Manetheren not rising again. Why not? Emond's Field and Ghealdan were the main part of Manetheren and the queen of Ghealdan swore fealty to him. They are looking to forge alliances, I still think its possbile.

 

You may be right.. maybe it won't rise again.. but I would love to see it happen. I dont think it matters that 2000 years have gone by. I mean.. after 2000 years the banner is back up and the band of the red hand is back. Whos to say that the will of the people wont make it rise again? Just like it made Perrin their lord. He said he wasn't a lord over and over again. Yet the will of the people made him to be one in the end. I dont think its Perrin going back on a promise, if its the people who choose it. That.. and Rand might just say. "Oh yeah, the Two Rivers is now Manetheren, kkthx"

 

Here's to hoping.

Cheers

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't see anything to say it won't happen in the future. i think it's very likely. as i doubt that future will be written, or hope it won't, we're perfectly free to believe what we like of it.

[Suttree]

I specifcily remember Elayne saying the two rivers would be their own nation (She would give the Two Rivers to Rand, and I vividly remember the word nation - I dont have book with me, im at work) I'll try to find it when i get home.

 

Sorry mate but that is wrong. Elayne could not be seen to cede land so soon after taking the throne and the whole reason they had to make it the DR seat as opposed to making Perrin the Lord was so the other nobles wouldn't be pissed about it's tax exempt status while Elaye gets tariff free trade. In addition Perrin swore fealty to Elayne and is obligated to come if she calls him to war.

 

TOM

Elayne's eyes lit up. "Yes. That would work. If I gave the area to him to be his seat in Andor . . ."

 

Faile opened her mouth, but Elayne cut her off with a wave of the hand. "This isn't negotiable. I'll need some way to convince the other lords and ladies that I'm right to give the Two Rivers so much autonomy. If the lands are granted to the Dragon Reborn, giving him a title in Andor and making the Two Rivers his seat, then it will make sense for your home to be treated differently.

 

"The noble Houses of Andor will accept this, since the Two Rivers is where Rand came from, and Andor does owe him a debt. We'll have him appoint Perrin's line as his stewards. Instead of capitulating to rebels within my borders, I'll be seen allowing the Dragon Reborn, the man I love, to elevate his good friend..."The taxes," Elayne said, as if she hadn't heard. "You put them into a trust to be administered by Perrin and his line, with the understanding that if the Dragon ever returns, he can call upon them. Yes. That gives us a legal excuse for your exemption. Of course, Perrin will have authority to dip into those funds to improve the Two Rivers. Roads, food stores, defenses."

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

and when they're both dead, and the world is broken, and new nations rise from the rubble. no reason this couldn't happen. no objective evidence either way.

[Master of Germs]

Everything may happen after the Last Battle (provided the Light supporters win the Last Battle). But I hope Manetheren will not rise again. Seanchan are the only one which would really benefit if Andor - Randland's strongest and largest country - is divided.

[SylvanFox]

Darnit, now I've got to go and dig in the books, because I could have sworn that there is a short excerpt from something written in Manetheren, in the 4th Age....

 

Only trouble is, I loaned a bunch of them to my friend. I will look through the ones I have.

 

Can't find it. I must have been wrong.

[Gabriel Kross]

The problem is, which has been stated in the books several times, is everytime the Red Eagle is raised in an attempt to revive Manetheren something terrible happens or it just flat out fails.

[FarShainMael]

Nevertheless:

 

Banners appeared atop the flagpoles, remaining just long enough to ripple once lazily. Long enough to make out on one a red eagle flying across a field of blue. Not a red eagle; the Red Eagle. Once, visiting this place with Nynaeve in Tel’aran’rhiod, she had thought she glimpsed it, had decided she must be mistaken. Master Norry had begun setting her straight. She loved Rand, but if someone in the place he grew up was trying to raise Manetheren from its ancient grave, she would have to take cognizance, however much it pained him. That banner and that name still carried enough power to threaten Andor.

 

Elayne deals with this in ToM47, of course, when she grants the TR to the Dragon Reborn with Perrin as his steward.

 

...that's Perrin, who successfully defended the Two Rivers against Trollocs, who has Alliandre, the Queen of Ghealdan - once a part of Manetheren - sworn to him, and is married to the Saldaean heiress...

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

ayup

[SylvanFox]

I don't know about anybody actually trying to revive Manetheren, but it's possible that it has already happened on accident. Perrin isn't that interested in all of this "lordly" power stuff going on... but I wonder if the Two Rivers will be willing to put the flag away after glory and victory at TG. Heck, they already seem to want to fly the banners all the time.

[FarShainMael]

I'm just waiting for the blacksmith to speak in High Chant.. (TGH8)

[TheAngryDruid]

ToM, A Teaching Chamber (Ch. 47), page 698, Hardback:

 

Faile shook her head. "They love him, Your Majesty. They respect him. They'll do what he says. We canand will put down ideas of Manetheren rising again."

 

Elayne gives the TR Rand has his seat, and Perrin/Faile's line are the Stewards. But the TR, and Perrin, are still Elayne's vassals. They are exempt from taxes. Perrin outranks other Andoran High Lords. If Faile gets the Throne of Saldea, then the TR stewardship would pass to one of her children, and a different child would rule Saldaea.

 

Alliandre (Ghealdan) is sworn to Perrin, and Perrin is sworn to Elayne. Presumably, Berelain makes some kind of formal arrangement with Perrin and also with Elayne. And Faile promises to work towards a similar one for Saldaea.

 

So you get an Andor/Two Rivers + Saldaea + Ghealdan + Mayene + Cairhein pact.

 

Still, we haven't delved too much into the Broken Crown side of things.

 

Still, Manetheren could rise in Ghealdan, or Amadicia, or Almoth Plain, or Tarabon. Don't know what the old borders were exactly, but the border seemed to be west of the mountains of the Mist (barely).

[MasterAblar]

I specifcily remember Elayne saying the two rivers would be their own nation (She would give the Two Rivers to Rand, and I vividly remember the word nation - I dont have book with me, im at work) I'll try to find it when i get home.

 

Sorry mate but that is wrong. Elayne could not be seen to cede land so soon after taking the throne and the whole reason they had to make it the DR seat as opposed to making Perrin the Lord was so the other nobles wouldn't be pissed about it's tax exempt status while Elaye gets tariff free trade. In addition Perrin swore fealty to Elayne and is obligated to come if she calls him to war.

 

Actually, wouldn't Perrin swear fealty to Rand?

[FarShainMael]

If Rand is still alive..

[SuperFade]

ToM, A Teaching Chamber (Ch. 47), page 698, Hardback:

 

Faile shook her head. "They love him, Your Majesty. They respect him. They'll do what he says. We canand will put down ideas of Manetheren rising again."

 

Elayne gives the TR Rand has his seat, and Perrin/Faile's line are the Stewards. But the TR, and Perrin, are still Elayne's vassals. They are exempt from taxes. Perrin outranks other Andoran High Lords. If Faile gets the Throne of Saldea, then the TR stewardship would pass to one of her children, and a different child would rule Saldaea.

 

Alliandre (Ghealdan) is sworn to Perrin, and Perrin is sworn to Elayne. Presumably, Berelain makes some kind of formal arrangement with Perrin and also with Elayne. And Faile promises to work towards a similar one for Saldaea.

 

So you get an Andor/Two Rivers + Saldaea + Ghealdan + Mayene + Cairhein pact.

 

Still, we haven't delved too much into the Broken Crown side of things.

 

Still, Manetheren could rise in Ghealdan, or Amadicia, or Almoth Plain, or Tarabon. Don't know what the old borders were exactly, but the border seemed to be west of the mountains of the Mist (barely).

 

It's still a bit of a mess, and I doubt the arrangement will long outlast the deaths of the ones who made it. It's a shame we won't see how things work out in however many decades time.