Moghedian

[cantodd]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but why didn't Moghedian use the true power to escape from the a'dam throughout Lord of Chaos? In "Mindtra" ch 25 in A Crown of Swords, early on as she's being led to the Pit of Doom she mentions something about the true power being washed over her, which I took to mean she had access to it at that point (wasn't until later that it was mentioned that only Morindin had access to it). In "Writings" in Towers of Midnight, Graendal mentions sensing Morindin's true power gateway telling herself that at least she still has access to the true power. Rand, in one of my favorite scenes, was able to use the True Power to escape the dominion band.

[Gabriel Kross]

I don't think Moggy ever had access to it, I believe her big thing was TAR which is what she used for everything

[kght22]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but why didn't Moghedian use the true power to escape from the a'dam throughout Lord of Chaos? In "Mindtra" ch 25 in A Crown of Swords, early on as she's being led to the Pit of Doom she mentions something about the true power being washed over her, which I took to mean she had access to it at that point (wasn't until later that it was mentioned that only Morindin had access to it). In "Writings" in Towers of Midnight, Graendal mentions sensing Morindin's true power gateway telling herself that at least she still has access to the true power. Rand, in one of my favorite scenes, was able to use the True Power to escape the dominion band.

rand, like moridin has direct permission from shai'tan to use the true power. but the dark one strictly controls who can use his power. i suspect that rand can use it because it twists the user. keep in mind what happened to rand after the one time he used it. how it effected him and by extension his effect on the world.

 

graendel was allowed the use of a small sliver of that power, and even with that much she was afraid of it.

[Mr Hindley]

However, given that the DO sent Aran'gar to rescue Moghedien - which introduced enough of a delay for Moggy to have all sorts of secrets winkled out of her - why not just give her temporary access to enough of the power to break free?

 

By the same measure, why not allow Semi access to the TP when she had her first meeting with Rand? Given that Moridin said 'she was just supposed to capture him', her attempt to capture Rand clearly had the DO's blessing. That way, she probably wouldn't have been captured in the first place. Hell, the DO could even have had Shaidar Haran turn up as well, crippling all the channelers present.

 

Dumb Evil strikes again... :(

[baalsmistress]

Perhaps the great lord does not actually *NEED* to give permission at all, and the forsaken are labouring under the false premice that he does. Self imposed restrictions on the one power become manifest in reality - witness blocks and the hand gestures that various characters have believed essential to the use of various weaves.

 

If that is the case, it's really not at all unlikely that the chosen would believe that the dark lord can only grant such permission at SG. Rand's ability to use it would come from his not knowing that the supposed restriction exists.

 

What prevents the use of the true power from being more widespread is the same thing that prevents the use of the one power being prevelent in our age - lack of knowledge and perhaps lack of inherent channelling ability.

[Sloth]

Perhaps the great lord does not actually *NEED* to give permission at all, and the forsaken are labouring under the false premice that he does. Self imposed restrictions on the one power become manifest in reality - witness blocks and the hand gestures that various characters have believed essential to the use of various weaves.

 

If that is the case, it's really not at all unlikely that the chosen would believe that the dark lord can only grant such permission at SG. Rand's ability to use it would come from his not knowing that the supposed restriction exists.

 

What prevents the use of the true power from being more widespread is the same thing that prevents the use of the one power being prevelent in our age - lack of knowledge and perhaps lack of inherent channelling ability.

 

If this were true, Graendal would have realized this when she was "given permission" to access that tiny sliver of the TP.

[baalsmistress]

Why would she?

 

She's been told by the people that taught her to use it that she can only do so with the dark one's permission, and believes that firmly enough to make it true. It could well be that the reason she was only 'granted' a sliver is because her true power cnallelling ability is rather like Morgase's one power ability - there but negligible. And she was simply told, or assumed that it was the great lord's will that she channel only a sliver. Perhaps she believed her permission was a one time thing, and that belief makes embracing impossible for her now - or perhaps she simply can only touch the source for that power occasionally, and took a failure as a sign her permission was revoked.

[Sloth]

Why would she?

 

She's been told by the people that taught her to use it that she can only do so with the dark one's permission, and believes that firmly enough to make it true. It could well be that the reason she was only 'granted' a sliver is because her true power cnallelling ability is rather like Morgase's one power ability - there but negligible. And she was simply told, or assumed that it was the great lord's will that she channel only a sliver. Perhaps she believed her permission was a one time thing, and that belief makes embracing impossible for her now - or perhaps she simply can only touch the source for that power occasionally, and took a failure as a sign her permission was revoked.

 

You're breaking a bunch of fallacies. While your theory isn't completely out of the question, there's not evidence to suggest that it is true.

 

What I mean is that if the TP restriction were in fact self imposed, Graendal would realize this after touching it. I imagine that rather than Graendal always having to be careful about how much of the TP she channels, that the amount that is able to wield is physically/metaphysically capped by the DO.

[baalsmistress]

And again, I question why she would. Even when Nynaeve *KNEW* that her ability to channel the one power was innate, she still required herbs as a crutch to permit her to allow herself to channel.

 

Now, if there had been noone to tell her it was just a crutch and not a requirement, if everyone around her that could channel all used herbs too, and told her it was normal to use them - would she ever have realised that it wasn't?

 

It's entirely probable that she'd have gone through her entire channelling life believing they were necessary - especially if she had another form of power she could tap at will, far more strongly and with less personal consequence.

[Sloth]

And again, I question why she would. Even when Nynaeve *KNEW* that her ability to channel the one power was innate, she still required herbs as a crutch to permit her to allow herself to channel.

 

Now, if there had been noone to tell her it was just a crutch and not a requirement, if everyone around her that could channel all used herbs too, and told her it was normal to use them - would she ever have realised that it wasn't?

 

It's entirely probable that she'd have gone through her entire channelling life believing they were necessary - especially if she had another form of power she could tap at will, far more strongly and with less personal consequence.

 

You're breaking the association fallacy, ignoring the fact that Nynaeve is a special circumstance. Wilders are a special circumstance because of a block that they themselves are prone to by learning to channel "wrongly". Graendal, on the other hand, and all forsaken, for that matter, are well aware of the TP and have no problem embracing it (whereas wilders do). They only need permission.

[baalsmistress]

Morgase was well aware of the one power, yet could only connect with it 1 time in 50.

 

I think when you referred to TP and wilders in the same sentence you were probably meaning OP. There is certainly no dispute as to the competence of all the chosen to embrace saidar/siadin. Most, however, cannot use the True Power. And the only reason as to why, is supplied indirectly by the Father of Lies.

[Sloth]

Morgase was well aware of the one power, yet could only connect with it 1 time in 50.

 

I think when you referred to TP and wilders in the same sentence you were probably meaning OP. There is certainly no dispute as to the competence of all the chosen to embrace saidar/siadin. Most, however, cannot use the True Power. And the only reason as to why, is supplied indirectly by the Father of Lies.

 

Competent grasp of the OP also requires a certain degree of ability, which is not what we are discussing. You're comparing access to the TP to mental blocks that wilders develop with the OP.. and no, I did not mix up the TP and OP in the same sentence.

 

The DO is said to directly be the source of the TP. Unlike the OP, however, there's not much discussion about the ability to channel it, if one requires it at all. All that's known is that it requires some degree of permission from the DO, whether to touch it at all, be given the ability TO channel it, or to avoid punishment from drawing from it when they should not be.

[baalsmistress]

mmm, is said to be - by himself. It's certainly a fiction that would be in his interests to initiate, and perpetuate.

 

And actually, I was looking at the mummery surrounding OP usage that some users believe to be required, and in believing it, cause it to become required in truth. A classic (non-wilder) example is the Aes Sedai hand gestures that are not shared by other channellers. Graendell was highly reluctant to touch the true power, and firmly believed she needed the dark lord's permission to do so.

 

Given Rand's apparantly continued ability to use the true power, and at this stage it's unlikely in the extreme that he would receive permission, some other mechanism than permission is allowed for. One theory is the Moridin link, another, equally supportable theoery is that the great lord lied to the chosen when he told them that only he could grant it.

[Sloth]

mmm, is said to be - by himself. It's certainly a fiction that would be in his interests to initiate, and perpetuate.

 

And actually, I was looking at the mummery surrounding OP usage that some users believe to be required, and in believing it, cause it to become required in truth. A classic (non-wilder) example is the Aes Sedai hand gestures that are not shared by other channellers. Graendell was highly reluctant to touch the true power, and firmly believed she needed the dark lord's permission to do so.

 

Given Rand's apparantly continued ability to use the true power, and at this stage it's unlikely in the extreme that he would receive permission, some other mechanism than permission is allowed for. One theory is the Moridin link, another, equally supportable theoery is that the great lord lied to the chosen when he told them that only he could grant it.

 

Graendal was never cautious in touching the TP, just in unnecessarily revealing to Aran'gar that she could only touch a sliver.

 

Anyways, isn't there a WoG quote from RJ or BS that says Semirhage felt betrayed since it requires the DO's permission to touch the TS? If your theory IS correct, there's no way he would mislead us by saying this. Instead, he would tell us to RAFO to avoid telling us something he doesn't wish us to know. This quote completely defeats your theory.

[baalsmistress]

Is there?

 

Perhaps you could link it for me please - though the way you worded that, it could be she feels betrayed because she was not given permission to touch the TP, rendering her incapable of touching it and thus disproving the necesity for permission - to clarify, she has no issues touching th TS at all.

[Mr Ares]

Firstly, it should be pointed out that both RJ and BS were quite clear on the TP requiring Shai'tan's permission to use. Here's a quote: "No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission". Or "Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you". First is BS, second is RJ.

 

However, given that the DO sent Aran'gar to rescue Moghedien - which introduced enough of a delay for Moggy to have all sorts of secrets winkled out of her - why not just give her temporary access to enough of the power to break free?

 

By the same measure, why not allow Semi access to the TP when she had her first meeting with Rand? Given that Moridin said 'she was just supposed to capture him', her attempt to capture Rand clearly had the DO's blessing. That way, she probably wouldn't have been captured in the first place. Hell, the DO could even have had Shaidar Haran turn up as well, crippling all the channelers present.

 

Dumb Evil strikes again... :(

We have no reason to believe SH could have crippled all the channelers present. Semi shouldn't have needed TP to capture Rand, and once she had failed why would you reward her (or Moggy, for that matter) with the TP? And they might well have still been reluctant to use it - the TP is not something the Chosen use lightly, nor in great quantity if they cn help it. Aside from Ishy, of course. That stuff is dangerous.

[baalsmistress]

Firstly, it should be pointed out that both RJ and BS were quite clear on the TP requiring Shai'tan's permission to use. Here's a quote: "No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission". Or "Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you". First is BS, second is RJ.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough

[Hopefire]

I think it comes down to Moggy being a coward/realist. If's like knowing she could get out by using a super form of Meth, but considers a Meth addiction worse than the captivity.

[gloweye]

Moggy woulnd't count it as worse. She wants to be free more than anything...(except from mindtrap, but that's an even better prison.)

[Roxinos]

Anyways, isn't there a WoG quote from RJ or BS that says Semirhage felt betrayed since it requires the DO's permission to touch the TS?

 

It's not a WoG quote. It's directly from the book.

 

The Gathering Storm, Chapter 22, "The Last That Could Be Done", Page 354, Hardcover

Semirhage looked utterly shocked. "But...that's impossible..." she said. "I felt nothing. You can't--" She looked up, staring at him with wide eyes. "The True Power. Why have you betrayed me, Great Lord? Why?"

 

Just to answer a question.

[baalsmistress]

Directly from the book doesn't cut it, since the character could have faulty knowledge.

 

From RJ/BS is difinitive since they defined the world and information from them is not filtered through character knowledge and perspective.

[Roxinos]

That's such a terrible opinion. Context is everything, and to just willy-nilly state that anything from the book is necessarily unreliable is completely misinterpreting the notion of the unreliable narrator.

 

It's also quite ridiculous in this context anyway. Because the question was, "[Didn't] Semirhage [feel] betrayed since it requires the DO's permission to touch the TS?"

 

In answer, yes. Yes, she felt betrayed. And we know she felt betrayed because she said it.

 

If you say, "You don't know she felt betrayed 'cause channeling the TP requires the DO's permission, though!" then I reserve the right to facepalm.

 

All evidence in the books points to the simple requirement of permission. Hell, even one of the Chosen's perspectives directly states that it requires the Great Lord's permission. And on the same page, she goes on to say that only twenty-nine others have ever been given that honor.

 

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25, "Mindtrap", page 534, paperback

[...] This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once. [...] ...she had not expected the Great Lord to allow one that particular honor. [...] "You have been given distinction greater than you know," she told him. [...] "Bring me some of that wine, and I will tell you. Only twenty-nine others have ever been granted--"

 

I'm sorry if I seem a bit heated, but you are severely misinterpreting what an unreliable narrator is. While WoG may take precedence over all else, you cannot rely and require WoG to end discussions. There is a preponderance of evidence to support the claim that channeling the True Power requires permission from the Great Lord even without WoG.

[baalsmistress]

mmm, we know she FELT BETRAYED - what it doesn't imply is that she was correct in her assumptions that lead to that feeling. Likewise, the comment by Moghedian implies only that she believes that the DO's permission is required.

 

The point that is being discussed is whether it is ACTUALLY the case that in the reality of the WoT world (please don't make the mistake of thinking I just referred to the true power in our reality) the DO's permission is needed.

 

As it happens, I came across this interview question from the November 2009 TGS Book Tour

 

 

Did Rand directly have the DO’s permission to channel the TP?

It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DO’s direct permission.

Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?

No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

 

The first quote implies that the True Power does not require the DO's permission

The seconf implies that it does.

 

Bottom line - if Brandon Sanderson isn't sure on this one, no way at all we can be. It's clear enough though that the DO granting permission *IS* sufficient to permit someone to use it, if not whether the person needs to visit SG to receive that permission. It's for that reason that I conceeded the point and accepted that the theorum I advanced concerning the nature of access to the true power was incorrect. The DO's permission does have more than a psychological effect on access.

[Kahsm]

mmm, we know she FELT BETRAYED - what it doesn't imply is that she was correct in her assumptions that lead to that feeling. Likewise, the comment by Moghedian implies only that she believes that the DO's permission is required.

 

The point that is being discussed is whether it is ACTUALLY the case that in the reality of the WoT world (please don't make the mistake of thinking I just referred to the true power in our reality) the DO's permission is needed.

 

As it happens, I came across this interview question from the November 2009 TGS Book Tour

 

 

Did Rand directly have the DO’s permission to channel the TP?

It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DO’s direct permission.

Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?

No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

 

The first quote implies that the True Power does not require the DO's permission

The seconf implies that it does.

 

Bottom line - if Brandon Sanderson isn't sure on this one, no way at all we can be. It's clear enough though that the DO granting permission *IS* sufficient to permit someone to use it, if not whether the person needs to visit SG to receive that permission. It's for that reason that I conceeded the point and accepted that the theorum I advanced concerning the nature of access to the true power was incorrect. The DO's permission does have more than a psychological effect on access.

 

Love how you put the Semi situation, very true.

 

As for the clarity with TP. I don't think the quotes have to be contradictions. I suppose it depends how nit-picky you want to be with his choice of the word "channel" or what you actually define as the "channeling".

 

If you were to change "channel" to "draw on" in the second Q&A, "no man may draw on the True Power..." then you could see how the link theory would still work. Rand draws it through Moridin, similar to how the Choedan Kal access keys worked.

 

So the question becomes, does he really mean no man can CHANNEL it (as in make the weaves)? I don't see how that would work just from our general understanding of how these powers work. I think the DO can limit how much someone can draw (Moridin seems to have full access, Graendal has only a bit etc.), but not stop someone from channeling it if they had already drawn the power. So since Moridin has permission to draw on it, Rand can wrestle it through the link and then create weaves with it.

[Roxinos]

mmm, we know she FELT BETRAYED - what it doesn't imply is that she was correct in her assumptions that lead to that feeling. Likewise, the comment by Moghedian implies only that she believes that the DO's permission is required.

 

Which I mentioned.

 

If you say, "You don't know she felt betrayed 'cause channeling the TP requires the DO's permission, though!" then I reserve the right to facepalm.

 

All evidence in the books points to the simple requirement of permission. Hell, even one of the Chosen's perspectives directly states that it requires the Great Lord's permission. And on the same page, she goes on to say that only twenty-nine others have ever been given that honor.

 

So as I said. I reserve the right to facepalm. Actually, I think I can facepalm even harder because you ignored my preemptive response to that comment. Even more so because given a moment's thought you'd not just handwave away the Moghedien quote because you'd realize that believing such a specific number of people, 29, have been granted access to the True Power requires something more than "I think that's how it works." Which lends credence to her opinion (as if the simple fact that you have no reason to distrust her belief on the matter wasn't enough).

 

I'm going to again state that you do not know what an unreliable narrator is. It's not simply "every person is unreliable because the information they have is filtered through what they believe to be true." It's "we have been shown that this person gives us false information, thus, everything he/she says is suspect."

 

We have no reason to distrust the wealth of in-universe information that indicates that the True Power is something the Great Lord must grant access to.

 

And understanding that allows you to see the quotes by Brandon that you provided: "It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DO’s direct permission" and "No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that" in a more reasonable light. That is, there is no contradiction. It is possible to access the TP without the Great Lord's direct permission. He says "direct" but does not say that no permission is required. The second question asks whether or not the link between Rand and Moridin is what allows him to channel, and he repeats that Rand does not have the permission required. Which, given half a second's thought, will make you ask the question "between Rand and Moridin who does have permission to use the TP?"

 

Well, that's an easy one. Moridin.

 

So Rand didn't have direct permission. He accessed the TP through Moridin.

 

But this is all irrelevant. We know from WoG that the TP requires the Great Lord's permission to use.

 

The only thing I'm trying to get you to understand is that you cannot rely on WoG for everything. Yes, WoG is the end-all-be-all source of information. But, lacking WoG, the books are a valid source of information.