A common misconception about Moiraine

[baalsmistress]

Even if she couldn't channel, she's among the best, if not the best physical fighter of the women in the series.

 

Please, please, explain to me where there is the slightest indication that Moiraine is a good physical fighter - I don't know of anything to put her on a par with Faiele, let alone the Maidens of the Spear

 

It was a slight divert of topic it's about Tuon not Moiraine

 

Fair enough. Tuon is not someone even most Aiel would want to try and mug.

 

also

The problem is there is no evidence as of yet to show her strength, yes Tuon has political power, but what good is political power in a all out fight? If she turns out to be the 6th than yes Mat Tuon combo would be up there with Moiraine/Thom and Nynaeve/Lan

 

The use of political power in a fight - having an army of 300,000 troops, instead of 50,000 because of the other noble's you've gotten to pledge their support to you and deliver on the pledge.

 

we were more talking about just the duos not the people they have following them, if you went that route yes Tuon and Mat would be number 1 for the 2 armies they control but that's not what I was referring to, I was referring to the fact that by themselves Thom and Moiraine could do massive amounts of damage to the enemy, more so than Nynaeve and Lan, because Moiraine's experience compared to Nynaeve's (Nynaeve is the reason for Lan/Nynaeve not being number 1 but only due to lack of experience)

 

Again we're going to disagree. Moiraine might have more 'time served'. But I would doubt she has that much more combat experience than Naenaeve. And Nyn's experience includes battling and defeating other channellers. Shes proven herself capable even up to the level of facing a forsaken one on one. And there are few men alive with better fighting experience than Lan. The only reason that Lan would not beat Thom is that the 2 of them would never fight each other.

 

Nyn may well be young. But it's a foolish person that underestimates her effectiveness. Moggi had the right idea when she tried to balefire her without warning from ambush.

[Sa'angRAND]

With Moraine being very weak now and I believe that Brandon said somewhere that the Eelfinn (sp) can’t actually decrease someone’s strength overall for when they are re-woven into the pattern (going off of memory so could be wrong.

 

I am wondering if she actually is partially burned out or partially stilled instead of her capacity being decreased. With severing being cured then maybe they can sever her entirely and then cure her and we have a powered up Moraine back to regular level.

 

I am hoping they do something similar to Siuan and Leanne whenever they talk to the red who was stilled and fixed (can’t remember the name)

[Suttree]

And Nyn's experience includes battling and defeating other channellers.

 

How does Moiraine's experience not include that?

[Finnssss22]

With Moraine being very weak now and I believe that Brandon said somewhere that the Eelfinn (sp) can’t actually decrease someone’s strength overall for when they are re-woven into the pattern (going off of memory so could be wrong.

 

I am wondering if she actually is partially burned out or partially stilled instead of her capacity being decreased. With severing being cured then maybe they can sever her entirely and then cure her and we have a powered up Moraine back to regular level.

 

I am hoping they do something similar to Siuan and Leanne whenever they talk to the red who was stilled and fixed (can’t remember the name)

 

 

I could be wrong here but what I believe BS was getting at was that Mo's soul was not drained of her strength in the power, just her ability in her current life was.

When she is born again in the future, she will not be diminished.

 

Although, I do agree it's not out of the question that what was done to her can indeed be healed. Remote possibility maybe but I can't completely dismiss it either.

[baalsmistress]

And Nyn's experience includes battling and defeating other channellers.

 

How does Moiraine's experience not include that?

 

Moiraine's experience = sneaking in close enough to balefire Bel'al, and a forseen move of knocking Lanfear through into the eelfinn world.

 

Nynaeve's experience is a lot broader. She has the strength, experience and skill required to hold her ground against any of the current black ajah.

[Gabriel Kross]

And Nyn's experience includes battling and defeating other channellers.

 

How does Moiraine's experience not include that?

 

Moiraine's experience = sneaking in close enough to balefire Bel'al, and a forseen move of knocking Lanfear through into the eelfinn world.

 

Nynaeve's experience is a lot broader. She has the strength, experience and skill required to hold her ground against any of the current black ajah.

 

 

Did you forget her constant killings of trollocs in the first books and her battles with darkhounds? moiraine even had one power battles fresh out of the tower as a new aes sedai (New spring)

[Bromo Sapien]

I have to agree with Bael on this. Nyn has been fighting since she was going to the Tower, and then pretty much constantly after that. While we see a lot of fighting from Moiraine in the series, we have to remember that the time between New Spring and EotW had very few real battles in it. It was either Moiraine or Lan who said in the first book that Trollocs hadn't been seen south of the Borderlands since the Trolloc Wars and that was Manetheren-era. Most of the that time span was spent searching peacefully. And before you bring up the BA hunting Rand at the same time, the fact that so few believe in the BA in Tar Valon says that Moiraine found very few, if any, after Merean.

 

Nynaeve travelled with Moiraine the entire time of EotW and then was involved in the Falme battle, breaking Egwene out and attacking damane and sul'dam. Moiraine did kill Be'lal and was involved in that battle way more heavily than Nynaeve, but I don't remember Moiraine being involved in battle between that and the doorway ter'angreal. Most of the time between the two was spent with the Aiel and she couldn't be involved with any of those battles directly because of the Oaths. After that, she was trapped in the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Nynaeve, meanwhile, fought and beat a Forsaken (Moghedien), identified another and help capture her (Semirhage), introduced innumerable weaves which can be used in battle to the Aes Sedai, and hunted the Black Ajah, all while fighting Darkfriends the entire way. All of the Supergirls have way more experience in battle than any but Cadsuane due to the lack of Shadowspawn.

[GYLD]

While we see a lot of fighting from Moiraine in the series, we have to remember that the time between New Spring and EotW had very few real battles in it. It was either Moiraine or Lan who said in the first book that Trollocs hadn't been seen south of the Borderlands since the Trolloc Wars and that was Manetheren-era. Most of the that time span was spent searching peacefully.

 

Trollocs might not have been seen south of the Borderlands, but Moiraine undoubtedly saw her fair share. She traveled the Blight, without Lan, and met the Green Man. I cannot imagine that trip was particularly peaceful.

[kght22]

I have to agree with Bael on this. Nyn has been fighting since she was going to the Tower, and then pretty much constantly after that. While we see a lot of fighting from Moiraine in the series, we have to remember that the time between New Spring and EotW had very few real battles in it. It was either Moiraine or Lan who said in the first book that Trollocs hadn't been seen south of the Borderlands since the Trolloc Wars and that was Manetheren-era. Most of the that time span was spent searching peacefully. And before you bring up the BA hunting Rand at the same time, the fact that so few believe in the BA in Tar Valon says that Moiraine found very few, if any, after Merean.

 

Nynaeve travelled with Moiraine the entire time of EotW and then was involved in the Falme battle, breaking Egwene out and attacking damane and sul'dam. Moiraine did kill Be'lal and was involved in that battle way more heavily than Nynaeve, but I don't remember Moiraine being involved in battle between that and the doorway ter'angreal. Most of the time between the two was spent with the Aiel and she couldn't be involved with any of those battles directly because of the Oaths. After that, she was trapped in the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Nynaeve, meanwhile, fought and beat a Forsaken (Moghedien), identified another and help capture her (Semirhage), introduced innumerable weaves which can be used in battle to the Aes Sedai, and hunted the Black Ajah, all while fighting Darkfriends the entire way. All of the Supergirls have way more experience in battle than any but Cadsuane due to the lack of Shadowspawn.

 

nyn didn't identify semirhage, and it was cadsuane who interfered with her mask of mirrors. nyn also created few or no weaves beyond healing (beautiful healing) weaves, elayne figured out some knowledge on ter'angreal, but any martial weaves they found and learned, such as compulsion, were extracted from moghedien.

 

but regardless i think any information on moiraine's power wrought martial experience is all down to speculation, because we have a 20 year gap in knowledge there. she could have learned baelfire by seeing a black sister use it for an example. that alone would mean that she had encountered a very powerful black sister at some point. while we don't know that, we also don't know jack.

 

nyn by the fact of her power (a bonfire to elayne and egwene's candle) has the massive advantage in a heads up fight, but how many times in the series has it been that something threw the balance off, threw someone off guard. mat doesn't have to be there for chance to toss the dice.

[kght22]

While we see a lot of fighting from Moiraine in the series, we have to remember that the time between New Spring and EotW had very few real battles in it. It was either Moiraine or Lan who said in the first book that Trollocs hadn't been seen south of the Borderlands since the Trolloc Wars and that was Manetheren-era. Most of the that time span was spent searching peacefully.

 

Trollocs might not have been seen south of the Borderlands, but Moiraine undoubtedly saw her fair share. She traveled the Blight, without Lan, and met the Green Man. I cannot imagine that trip was particularly peaceful.

 

without lan? can you explain that? because she didn't do it before she bonded lan. but did lan or her ever say that he wasn't there the first time she met the green man?

[Bromo Sapien]

I have to agree with Bael on this. Nyn has been fighting since she was going to the Tower, and then pretty much constantly after that. While we see a lot of fighting from Moiraine in the series, we have to remember that the time between New Spring and EotW had very few real battles in it. It was either Moiraine or Lan who said in the first book that Trollocs hadn't been seen south of the Borderlands since the Trolloc Wars and that was Manetheren-era. Most of the that time span was spent searching peacefully. And before you bring up the BA hunting Rand at the same time, the fact that so few believe in the BA in Tar Valon says that Moiraine found very few, if any, after Merean.

 

Nynaeve travelled with Moiraine the entire time of EotW and then was involved in the Falme battle, breaking Egwene out and attacking damane and sul'dam. Moiraine did kill Be'lal and was involved in that battle way more heavily than Nynaeve, but I don't remember Moiraine being involved in battle between that and the doorway ter'angreal. Most of the time between the two was spent with the Aiel and she couldn't be involved with any of those battles directly because of the Oaths. After that, she was trapped in the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Nynaeve, meanwhile, fought and beat a Forsaken (Moghedien), identified another and help capture her (Semirhage), introduced innumerable weaves which can be used in battle to the Aes Sedai, and hunted the Black Ajah, all while fighting Darkfriends the entire way. All of the Supergirls have way more experience in battle than any but Cadsuane due to the lack of Shadowspawn.

 

nyn didn't identify semirhage, and it was cadsuane who interfered with her mask of mirrors. nyn also created few or no weaves beyond healing (beautiful healing) weaves, elayne figured out some knowledge on ter'angreal, but any martial weaves they found and learned, such as compulsion, were extracted from moghedien.

 

That's why I said introduced the weaves. They all were introduced after Moiraine disappeared, which means she doesn't know any of them. And even going into the Blight once without Lan (it had to be without Lan; when they finally get to the Eye of the World, the Green Man expresses surprise at Moiraine being there but not Lan) doesn't make up all the extra experience Nynaeve has had these past few years. Plus, even at Moiraine's peak, Nynaeve is at her peak power level now. Nynaeve is way more powerful in terms of raw One Power that she can control than Moiraine ever was. And, even if they were equal, the Lan-Thom skill difference is astronomical. Even now that they both have Warder powers, Lan is the single most prolific fighter in terms of non-One Powerness in the entire series. He's better with a sword than Mat is with the ashandarei, better than Thom with knives, better than Rand ever was with any sword. Nynaeve/Lan is without a doubt the best combo. I might even take them over all the Green Aes Sedais and their multiple Warders.

[David Selig]

Unless we specify that we can't have both persons use the One Power, Rand - Elayne or Rand - Aviendha is clearly the most powerful and dangerous couple in a fight.

[baalsmistress]

Another explanation for the surprise at Moiraine, but not Lan would be that he knows that Lan is her Warder. The pair of them arriving would be a surprise since you're only supposed to do it once, but Lan is seen by him (correctly) as being a part of Moiraine. More like an arm than a mere travelling companion.

 

Moiraine is the lead in that duo (naturally), so he expresses surprise at her being there. Lan though, is a natural consequence of her being there - he may well have expressed surprise if he were *NOT* with her.

[baalsmistress]

Unless we specify that we can't have both persons use the One Power, Rand - Elayne or Rand - Aviendha is clearly the most powerful and dangerous couple in a fight.

 

Yeah I'll agree with you at there :) Hell, even if you shield Aviendha, you better be fast with binding her or she's as likely to pick up a spear and hurl it at you as panic.

[DemandredFO]

I doubt Moiraine will care about her ranking in the tower and she has enough powerful friends that she can do whatever she wants. I do have a maybe dumb question, is it possible Moiraine is BA. She is absent at the same time Ingtar and Lan says she goes by herself sometimes. Disappearing the same time as Ingtar I wouldn't think a coincedence.

[Master of Germs]

Excuse me for getting a little bit off-topic (the topic, as I see it, is quite "off" without my posts, so...), but can someone provide the quote by RJ about the six stronger than Nynaeve women. I have never heard about that. I assume the Forsaken are not included in the list, right?

Once again, I apologize for the off-topic.

[kght22]

 

That's why I said introduced the weaves. They all were introduced after Moiraine disappeared, which means she doesn't know any of them. And even going into the Blight once without Lan (it had to be without Lan; when they finally get to the Eye of the World, the Green Man expresses surprise at Moiraine being there but not Lan) doesn't make up all the extra experience Nynaeve has had these past few years. Plus, even at Moiraine's peak, Nynaeve is at her peak power level now. Nynaeve is way more powerful in terms of raw One Power that she can control than Moiraine ever was. And, even if they were equal, the Lan-Thom skill difference is astronomical. Even now that they both have Warder powers, Lan is the single most prolific fighter in terms of non-One Powerness in the entire series. He's better with a sword than Mat is with the ashandarei, better than Thom with knives, better than Rand ever was with any sword. Nynaeve/Lan is without a doubt the best combo. I might even take them over all the Green Aes Sedais and their multiple Warders.

 

you must have read both my posts, i carefully tried not to specify that one was above the other in any way. nyn vs current moiraine head on, moiraine burns, nyn vs current moiraine sneaky, would depend on if both knew they were supposed to kill each other and who saw who first. but that isn't the point really. and lan would be up against one hell of a match using basic weapons against mat, or even rand without the op and missing a hand. of course if rand had both hands, lan wouldn't stand a chance, only gawyn or galad would. lan is good, but he is also 50 years or so old. gawyn even without the bond would likely split him down the center. keep in mind gawyn killed hammar, the only other warder that could go toe to toe with him. (doubt suan sanche would have accepted any less, or even her pillow friend)but regardless this post is supposed to be about moiraine. and the fact is she is a big foggy image when it comes to what she can do. and what weaves she knows. she knew baelfire. before moggy got captured. now explain to me how she couldn't know other insanely powerful weaves? as i keep trying to say, she is an unknown. but yah, in a fight, even with her angreal, moiraine would get he ass whipped, but that is a straight up fight. i also would like to mention the constant random element that is clearly a part of this series. i'm just trying to say that they bot have advantages, they both have detractors.

[baalsmistress]

I doubt Moiraine will care about her ranking in the tower and she has enough powerful friends that she can do whatever she wants. I do have a maybe dumb question, is it possible Moiraine is BA. She is absent at the same time Ingtar and Lan says she goes by herself sometimes. Disappearing the same time as Ingtar I wouldn't think a coincedence.

 

Yeah, it is a dumb question :)

 

Sorry :)

 

We've seen plenty of Moiraine's thought processes through the books and there is much to suggest she is not black, and nothing to suggest she is. Her use of balefire is explained by the Aes Sedai creed of doing what you need to do to achieve the goal and hang the rules. Pay for the breeches later.

[kght22]

I doubt Moiraine will care about her ranking in the tower and she has enough powerful friends that she can do whatever she wants. I do have a maybe dumb question, is it possible Moiraine is BA. She is absent at the same time Ingtar and Lan says she goes by herself sometimes. Disappearing the same time as Ingtar I wouldn't think a coincedence.

 

ba or not, min's viewing is very direct. rand cannot win without her at the last battle.

[kght22]

Another explanation for the surprise at Moiraine, but not Lan would be that he knows that Lan is her Warder. The pair of them arriving would be a surprise since you're only supposed to do it once, but Lan is seen by him (correctly) as being a part of Moiraine. More like an arm than a mere travelling companion.

 

Moiraine is the lead in that duo (naturally), so he expresses surprise at her being there. Lan though, is a natural consequence of her being there - he may well have expressed surprise if he were *NOT* with her.

damn i was messing with other poo in this thread, so you beat me to it.

although how in the world would she be there, with lan scouting the way in teotw. she clearly couldn't get to where she first met the green man on her own, because even by herself she would have needed some sort of scout or guide. and if he guided her, even if she got there at first by herself, lan would just follow her in through the bond.

[Finnssss22]

Excuse me for getting a little bit off-topic (the topic, as I see it, is quite "off" without my posts, so...), but can someone provide the quote by RJ about the six stronger than Nynaeve women. I have never heard about that. I assume the Forsaken are not included in the list, right?

Once again, I apologize for the off-topic.

 

 

Yes it does include Forsaken.

Here's the Q&A:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

 

Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much any time we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales—an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

 

Brandon was pretty certain that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana, who isn’t particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

 

Leaving us with, in no particular order:

Graendal

Lanfear/Cyndane

Sharina

Alivia

Semirhage

 

Talaan of the Windfinders and Someryn of the Shaido are the only other possibilities mentioned. Talaan however is more likely and even then, she is only said to be as strong as Nynaeve not stronger.

With Someryn, it seems a bit of a long shot as she is only described as stronger than any current Tower AS (not including Egwene and Elayne) and Graendal describes her ability "as not inconsiderable" but still obviously still quite a bit under herself. Personally, I put her in around Egwene and Elayne, maybe as high as Mesaana.

[kght22]

Excuse me for getting a little bit off-topic (the topic, as I see it, is quite "off" without my posts, so...), but can someone provide the quote by RJ about the six stronger than Nynaeve women. I have never heard about that. I assume the Forsaken are not included in the list, right?

Once again, I apologize for the off-topic.

 

 

Yes it does include Forsaken.

Here's the Q&A:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

 

Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much any time we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales—an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

 

Brandon was pretty certain that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana, who isn’t particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

 

Leaving us with, in no particular order:

Graendal

Lanfear/Cyndane

Sharina

Alivia

Semirhage

 

Talaan of the Windfinders and Someryn of the Shaido are the only other possibilities mentioned. Talaan however is more likely and even then, she is only said to be as strong as Nynaeve not stronger.

With Someryn, it seems a bit of a long shot as she is only described as stronger than any current Tower AS (not including Egwene and Elayne) and Graendal describes her ability "as not inconsiderable" but still obviously still quite a bit under herself. Personally, I put her in around Egwene and Elayne, maybe as high as Mesaana.

i thought moghedien was the weakest of the forsaken, and equal in strength to nyn. i must be missing something.

[Finnssss22]

 

i thought moghedien was the weakest of the forsaken, and equal in strength to nyn. i must be missing something.

 

It's between Moggy and Mesaana. Moggy prolly is the weaker.

The thing you're forgetting is that when Nynaeve took on Moggy, Nyn was not at her full potential yet.

It was stated by RJ that it takes quite while under normal circumstances to max out, any where from 5-10 years. The older someone is the faster they reach their potential and men tend to gain their strength faster than women as well.

"Forced training" through rigorous power use and/or through using angreal and sa'angreal can greatly reduce that time. Around 2 years was mentioned.

RJ also expressed that all 3 of Nyneave, Elayne and Egwene have all gone through some forced training.

None more than Nyneave imo with the Choedan Kal. I believe without a doubt, that that extended usage of that much power maxed her out.

[Sloth]

Excuse me for getting a little bit off-topic (the topic, as I see it, is quite "off" without my posts, so...), but can someone provide the quote by RJ about the six stronger than Nynaeve women. I have never heard about that. I assume the Forsaken are not included in the list, right?

Once again, I apologize for the off-topic.

 

 

Yes it does include Forsaken.

Here's the Q&A:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

 

Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much any time we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales—an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

 

Brandon was pretty certain that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana, who isn’t particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

 

Leaving us with, in no particular order:

Graendal

Lanfear/Cyndane

Sharina

Alivia

Semirhage

 

Talaan of the Windfinders and Someryn of the Shaido are the only other possibilities mentioned. Talaan however is more likely and even then, she is only said to be as strong as Nynaeve not stronger.

With Someryn, it seems a bit of a long shot as she is only described as stronger than any current Tower AS (not including Egwene and Elayne) and Graendal describes her ability "as not inconsiderable" but still obviously still quite a bit under herself. Personally, I put her in around Egwene and Elayne, maybe as high as Mesaana.

i thought moghedien was the weakest of the forsaken, and equal in strength to nyn. i must be missing something.

 

Moghedien is the weakest female forsaken, possibly the weakest forsaken. She and Nynaeve were equal in the OP during their first confrontation when Nynaeve had yet to reach her "full potential" which is what female channelers consider to be "how strong" another female channeler is since they can sense the "full potential" of a channler.

 

Hmm... as for Someryn, I've always been under the impression that the levels between forsaken and Elayne/Avi/Egwene were exponentially great and not just like "2 or 3 levels apart". After all, it is Moiraine who first notices that Nynaeve is a "bonfire" compared to the "candle" that is Egwene and Elayne. That said, I'd say Someryn is probably about equal in terms of the OP to Semirhage.

 

In fact, this is how I would rank the top level female channelers:

 

1. Lanfear

2. Cyndane; Alivia

3. Graendal; Sharina

5. Nynaeve

6. Semirhage; Someryn; Talaan

7. Mesaana

8. Moghedien; Tamela; Viendre

9. xxx

10. xxx

11. Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha

[kght22]

 

i thought moghedien was the weakest of the forsaken, and equal in strength to nyn. i must be missing something.

 

It's between Moggy and Mesaana. Moggy prolly is the weaker.

The thing you're forgetting is that when Nynaeve took on Moggy, Nyn was not at her full potential yet.

It was stated by RJ that it takes quite while under normal circumstances to max out, any where from 5-10 years. The older someone is the faster they reach their potential and men tend to gain their strength faster than women as well.

"Forced training" through rigorous power use and/or through using angreal and sa'angreal can greatly reduce that time. Around 2 years was mentioned.

RJ also expressed that all 3 of Nyneave, Elayne and Egwene have all gone through some forced training.

None more than Nyneave imo with the Choedan Kal. I believe without a doubt, that that extended usage of that much power maxed her out.

hmm i suppose maybe she wasn't maxed when she defeated moggy. but even at that point she had been using the one power for nearly 10 years so she must have been insanely close already. not knowingly using it, but she started before she was wisdom, perhaps somebody can interject how long she WAS wisdom, then we can add the forcing on top of that. i find it unlikely that she wasn't at her max by the time she laid her hands on the key. but regardless i remember years ago, like 10 years ago, reading something related to rj stating that nyn was equal to mogg in the one power, and nyn really didn't hardly have any growth in the power to do at that point (after comma was all me, not what i read). but someone here said she might be equiv to semhirage? that just seems inaccurate. moggy is the only forsaken she could challenge face to face without aid i would think. maybe mesanna before she started drooling. but i remember mesanna as being a middle power forsaken among the females, oh well my info is off my head and wotmania is gone heh. of course with her net she could likely best many others head to head if they don't have help