Taim's Teacher

[maryemi'jigede]

Ok, so over the past few days I have been reading up on everyone's theories about Taim Who Is No Longer Taimandred.

 

I want to know who he is, but it looks like no one is sure of even being close (although someone probably is without knowing it) so, the next big question - who is his teacher then??? I so badly want to get to the bottom of this.

 

I think Osan'gar aka Dashiva must've shown Taim some new moves before Rand plucked him out of the BT after Dumai's Well, surely? And this is probably why Mr. I'm The King of The World Not Rand wanted Rand to choose another asha'man, so that he could hang on to his little twitchy trove of knowledge.

 

But someone had to have been watching Taim's back during his False Dragon years, or 1) he would've shown (more?) signs of madness and 2) he never would have learned what he does about the Aiel ("so-called Aiel"), Travelling, and all the myriad other things we've picked up on.

 

 

I am firmly in the camp of TAIM IS A DF OR WORSE. And I'm thinking that in TG, Taim is going to spring up as a seriously scary Dreadlord. With mini-Dreadlords everywhere. But I don't think he is a Forsaken -- yet. Don't forget, the original 13 Forchosen were selected from powerful channelers of the time. What's to stop Ol' Nasty from just making new Forsaken from powerful channelers in this Age?

 

But I'm digressing!!! If Taim has not always been or has not recently been a Forsaken, then who is The Teacher, who is Taim's teacher???

[bsmnt23]

I dont care who says what, I'm of the theory that RJ was second guessed by the fans and he had to change who Taim was in mid-stream. He was perfect for, if not Demodred himself, at least one of the rest of the Forsaken. There are too many hints that a regular contemporary Randlander just wouldnt have the knowlege base to know. But, weather or not he WAS Demodred he ISN'T now, so, moving on. Based on his as-yet inexplicable knowlege and saidin training and his aparent protection from the taint it is impossible that he wasnt trained by a pre-breaking individual. I see either Mordeth or Demondred himself, but I dont think it matters for aMoL. I dont see Taim being anything more than a speedbump for the new, improved Rand Sedai, regardless of who trained him. Rand's leveled up enough to the End Boss fight so this flunky isnt even in his leauge now, if he ever was. No, I see Taim as Logain's problem; it's been clear enough for the past several books that they've had a clash building. I'd really hate to see this as one of the unresolved threads.

[Majsju]

Of the forsaken, only Ishy really fits the bill, Taim is a sparker in his late 20s, and thus would have been channeling for quite some time when the forsaken were released. So only Ishy would have been able to be around.

 

If a forsaken did train him, that is. Something that is far from guaranteed.

[Ananta]

Aiel channelers protected from the taint by DO trained him.

[baalsmistress]

The other clue to Ishamael's involvement with the black tower is the presence of a dream spike preventing the use of unauthorised gateways at the location.

[Bromo Sapien]

I have to agree with the rest: Ishamael is the most likely. However, just because he was channeling before the Forsaken were released doesn't mean he had complete control. Rand could channel decently even before he got Asmodean as a teacher and he feared it for awhile, unlike Taim (I would assume. He just seems like the kind of guy who would be like "Awesome Power that makes me go crazy? Sweet, Awesome Power!"). I think he got a rough control just through trial and error in the beginning and then when Ishamael broke free, he released Taim from the Aes Sedai control and began to teach him what he knows today.

[Southpaw89]

no RJ did not change his mind about Taim being Demandred when people began guessing. There was never really any real indication anyway. Besides the fact that we didn't know where Demandred was and that they have similar facial features doesn't mean much. There was much more going against them being the same person. And the Cleansing scene 100% proved they weren't the same

[mb]

Only thing certain to me about Taim's alliance is that he is non-Light.

 

Not sure whether Taim had a teacher.

Though if he did, Ishamael would be the most likely pre-series one.

During series; possibly Ossangar before Dumai's Wells, possibly Demandred after.

 

 

There might be a chance that Taim taught himself.

The length of holding back madness might be related to the channeler's saidin strength in combination with frequency of channeling.

[maryemi'jigede]

One thing that bothers me is that I can't find in any of the books a year for Taim's birth. Has anyone found a proper reference, or just hints?

 

If RJ hasn't given away when Taim was born, then it must be important. And if Taim's age is important, then it must maybe it provides a clue to Taim's identity, or allegiance.

 

If Taim was a sparker, he must have been using the Power from around 17-19 years of age. I'm not sure I can accept that the taint affects men according to their strength and frequency of OP usage, I think Rand actually observes that the madness seems to affect men at random -- some went nuts the second day of seizing the source, others in 2 years, others in 5... and I think some of the twitchy/stary ones in Rand's entourage are quite powerful, but showing signs already, which Rand notes a few times after LOC. I think it is in TPOD that Rand makes this observation about the random way the madness affects male channelers? So, I find it hard to accept that a channeler as powerful as Taim doesn't have any signs of madness yet -- unless his glory-hunger is a sign of madness. And if Taim is somehow protected by the taint, then he must have some little black wormy things connecting him to the DO and protecting him from the taint, since that's the only way we know so far how a man can be protected from the madness. I think it's been argued that Rand would see those black tendrils but Rand doesn't see those things all the time, only in certain circumstances (usually just before he's about to get his butt whipped).

 

Also, if Taim looks to be 35, and was a sparker, then he must be near to 80 or 90, if he has slowed the same way that AS slow (I'm definitely making an assumption here - please tell me if I'm wrong!). Yet after all that time, he seems unaffected by the taint. One interesting thing is (also in POD I think, or possibly COS) Rand wonders what will happen to the older Asha'man like Flinn - will they slow and look 50-odd for another 100 years now, or will they keep ageing? Anyway, that observation seems to me to add to Taim's age mystery. Maybe Taim didn't start using the OP until later than usual, which might explain why he looks like he's in his mid-30s (i.e. is 90 years old or thereabouts) but hasn't yet succumbed to the taint. Even so, his age indicates that he's been channeling for a good many years without going mad. But that just doesn't make sense. No, it seems to me that someone has been protecting Taim all this time. Unless the DO made him a new Forsaken.

 

Let's ignore the possibility that Taim is a new Forsaken.

 

I could go round and round this forever, but basically, it seems to me that Taim's mystery age, his knowledge of saidin, his AOL knowledge ("so called Aiel") and apparent immunity from the taint, all indicate that he has been under the protection of someone (The Teacher). The Creator is stingy - he doesn't give his minions a free pass from the taint, so if we accept that Taim must be protected from the taint, then the protection is not coming from the Light. Which means he's a bad guy. Which means the protection comes from the DO.

 

So, let's say a channeler like Taim didn't go mad in his first, say, 6 years of channeling. I'm saying 6 because that's how long Logain has lasted and I think most readers feel that Logain is a good guy. So in Taim's first 6 years of channeling who was around that had sufficient knowledge of saidin to teach Taim what he knows? I don't think even Ishy was out and about back then, if Taim is 90 years old or thereabouts. So, doees that mean that in order for Taim to have had Forsaken relations, he must have started channeling very lote to explain his age? OR he is exactly as old as he appears and didn't slow at all?? LOL, tying myself in knots now!

 

So ignoring the timing issue, Taim may have been a student of Ishmael's around the time he declared himself the DR in Saldaea. He had the power to offer protection from the DO and the right timing to be around when Taim declared himself as the DR. Ishy also created the Black Ajah, who were plotting to spring Taim in TGH (Moiraine's note to Siuan).

 

But, as we know, Ishy became Morishy/Ishydin and presumably lost his hold on Taim while he was getting paddled by the DO for being a naughty boy. And during that time Mesaana (presuming again) arrived in the WT and took over the Black Ajah.

 

So who took over the pawn that is Taim? It's possible he had more than one teacher I guess? While Ishy was in trouble, the SemMesDem triumvirate could have taken over Taim, which explains a lot of the arguments for Demandemon's involvement, but when Ishy returns as Moridin I would say he must have resumed control of Taim. Which explains why there was a dreamspike at the BT, since Moridin had a handful of them.

 

There's another Forsaken that was running about around the time Taim was cut loose, and that was Lanfear. Could she have been flitting between Rand and Taim? She often tried to tempt Rand by saying that she could teach him...maybe she tempted Taim too, and Taim accepted. A bedwarmer and AOL encyclopaedia in one! But of course, some other Forsaken would have had to take over after she went to the Tower of Ghenjei with Moiraine. And I'm not sure what was in it for Lanfear, playing with Taim.

 

And of course, Osan'gar was with Taim for a period as well.

 

So, maybe Taim had more than one Teacher....but somehow that just seems too simple. Gah!! I can't wait for November next year!!!

[maryemi'jigede]

Yikes, sorry, didn't realise I'd rambled on for that long -- congrats if you read to the end of it!!

[Mr Ares]

One thing that bothers me is that I can't find in any of the books a year for Taim's birth. Has anyone found a proper reference, or just hints?

 

If RJ hasn't given away when Taim was born, then it must be important. And if Taim's age is important, then it must maybe it provides a clue to Taim's identity, or allegiance.

 

Also, if Taim looks to be 35, and was a sparker, then he must be near to 80 or 90, if he has slowed the same way that AS slow (I'm definitely making an assumption here - please tell me if I'm wrong!).

According to RJ, Rand overestimated Taim's age. He looke dolder due to the rigours of his journey, and is actually in his late twenties.

[FarShainMael]

I can't see Lanfear teaching Taim. OK, she agreed to let Asmo teach Rand, but that was because she wanted Rand. I don't think she wants Taim, and certainly not as a potential rival to Rand.

 

Ishydin is more likely for a number of reasons. You mention the Dreamspikes; there's also the fact that both Moridin (as the Watcher in ACOS20) and Taim (LoC11) speak of the 'so-called Aiel', an expression that no-one else in the books ever used.

 

Another possibility might be Be'lal (Samon). They have the same sigil, a fist clutching lightning bolts - Samon/Be'lal in TDR51, Taim's BT palace in KoD Epilogue. Be'lal is now dead, balefired by Moiraine (TDR55).

[maryemi'jigede]

Thanks Mr Ares that helps my fuzzed brain out SO much - I have tied myself up in knots so many times trying to figure out Taim's age!

 

And FarShainMael, I didn't even think of Be'lal!!! And I didn't notice the sigil either! Going to do some re-reading tomorrow :)

[Majsju]

One thing that bothers me is that I can't find in any of the books a year for Taim's birth. Has anyone found a proper reference, or just hints?

 

If RJ hasn't given away when Taim was born, then it must be important. And if Taim's age is important, then it must maybe it provides a clue to Taim's identity, or allegiance.

 

Also, if Taim looks to be 35, and was a sparker, then he must be near to 80 or 90, if he has slowed the same way that AS slow (I'm definitely making an assumption here - please tell me if I'm wrong!).

According to RJ, Rand overestimated Taim's age. He looke dolder due to the rigours of his journey, and is actually in his late twenties.

 

Yup, and men start to Slow later than women, so Taim would not have much of that effect.

[maryemi'jigede]

Fantastic, so many questions answered in a couple of hours! Thanks guys :)

[FarShainMael]

Thanks Mr Ares that helps my fuzzed brain out SO much - I have tied myself up in knots so many times trying to figure out Taim's age!

 

And FarShainMael, I didn't even think of Be'lal!!! And I didn't notice the sigil either! Going to do some re-reading tomorrow :)

 

I've been doing a re-read, am up to LoC. I knew about the sigil, but I had thought it was Sammael, until I checked with EncWoT..

 

It's a pity Taim can't be Be'lal transmigrated, but no, he was balefired.

[chuckievi]

Balefire doesn't preclude Taim from being Be'lal necessarily, but Moiraine must have used enough to make it so the DO couldn't transmigrate his soul.

[Mr Ares]

Thanks Mr Ares that helps my fuzzed brain out SO much - I have tied myself up in knots so many times trying to figure out Taim's age!

 

And FarShainMael, I didn't even think of Be'lal!!! And I didn't notice the sigil either! Going to do some re-reading tomorrow :)

 

I've been doing a re-read, am up to LoC. I knew about the sigil, but I had thought it was Sammael, until I checked with EncWoT..

 

It's a pity Taim can't be Be'lal transmigrated, but no, he was balefired.

Both Sammael and Be'lal display the fist and lightning sigil, before Taim does in KoD.

[Finnssss22]

I have to agree with the rest: Ishamael is the most likely. However, just because he was channeling before the Forsaken were released doesn't mean he had complete control. Rand could channel decently even before he got Asmodean as a teacher and he feared it for awhile, unlike Taim (I would assume. He just seems like the kind of guy who would be like "Awesome Power that makes me go crazy? Sweet, Awesome Power!"). I think he got a rough control just through trial and error in the beginning and then when Ishamael broke free, he released Taim from the Aes Sedai control and began to teach him what he knows today.

 

 

Ishy had enough freedom and control to kill the head of the Black Ajah himself 18 years ago. His freedom and control has been enough at times, that he was able to become Hawkwing's lead adviser and enough to run the Trolloc wars previous to that. In which there were male Dreadlords and who else except Ishy himself could of trained them?

And how can you forget about the tEotW prologue, where Ishy "heals" Lews Therin?

 

Another thing that seems to have been missed is when Graendal visited Moridin at his keep in the Blight, what colour were his guards' coats again? Coincidence...I think not.

 

 

No, the ties between Ishy/Moridin and Taim/The Black Tower are far too numerous at this point to reach any other conclusion.

[maryemi'jigede]

OK, so I think I am pretty much convinced that:

 

a) AM darkfriends are being trained as Dreadlords

b) Taim is Moridin's man (so, in answer to my question, Ishy is the teacher)

 

 

I also think that:

 

c) More than one male Forsaken have been/are training AM Dreadlords (Osan'gar, Be'lal, Sammael, Demandred, Ishy are all candidates - some pre-balefiring) and so must have had contact with Taim when Ishy was switching bods (we know Osan'gar is one for certain. This would explain why Taim was reluctant to let him go - not so much as a teacher, but as a Dreadlord trainer).

d) Taim is the Dreadlord of all Dreadlords who aspires to be a new Forsaken, in fact, I am about 70% certain that Taim is already a new Forsaken!

[FarShainMael]

Thanks Mr Ares that helps my fuzzed brain out SO much - I have tied myself up in knots so many times trying to figure out Taim's age!

 

And FarShainMael, I didn't even think of Be'lal!!! And I didn't notice the sigil either! Going to do some re-reading tomorrow :)

 

I've been doing a re-read, am up to LoC. I knew about the sigil, but I had thought it was Sammael, until I checked with EncWoT..

 

It's a pity Taim can't be Be'lal transmigrated, but no, he was balefired.

Both Sammael and Be'lal display the fist and lightning sigil, before Taim does in KoD.

 

That's what I thought too, but I can't find a reference. Can you assist?

 

ETA: OK, got it. It's in TFoH34. IdealSeek missed that!

The Scene is in TAR.. does this mean Sammael has usurped Be'lal's position when he died?

[MasterAblar]

Thanks Mr Ares that helps my fuzzed brain out SO much - I have tied myself up in knots so many times trying to figure out Taim's age!

 

And FarShainMael, I didn't even think of Be'lal!!! And I didn't notice the sigil either! Going to do some re-reading tomorrow :)

 

I've been doing a re-read, am up to LoC. I knew about the sigil, but I had thought it was Sammael, until I checked with EncWoT..

 

It's a pity Taim can't be Be'lal transmigrated, but no, he was balefired.

Both Sammael and Be'lal display the fist and lightning sigil, before Taim does in KoD.

 

That's what I thought too, but I can't find a reference. Can you assist?

 

ETA: OK, got it. It's in TFoH34. IdealSeek missed that!

The Scene is in TAR.. does this mean Sammael has usurped Be'lal's position when he died?

 

It was on the coach that took the three girls to the Stone of Tear in tDR chapter 51. And then Sammael had it on the back of his throne in TAR in tFoH chapter 34.

 

I assume it's just the sigil for the Forsaken generals. Sammael in Illian, Bel'al in Tear, and, perhaps, Demandred at the BT.

[Jon Storme]

I have to agree with the rest: Ishamael is the most likely. However, just because he was channeling before the Forsaken were released doesn't mean he had complete control. Rand could channel decently even before he got Asmodean as a teacher and he feared it for awhile, unlike Taim (I would assume. He just seems like the kind of guy who would be like "Awesome Power that makes me go crazy? Sweet, Awesome Power!"). I think he got a rough control just through trial and error in the beginning and then when Ishamael broke free, he released Taim from the Aes Sedai control and began to teach him what he knows today.

 

 

Ishy had enough freedom and control to kill the head of the Black Ajah himself 18 years ago. His freedom and control has been enough at times, that he was able to become Hawkwing's lead adviser and enough to run the Trolloc wars previous to that. In which there were male Dreadlords and who else except Ishy himself could of trained them?

And how can you forget about the tEotW prologue, where Ishy "heals" Lews Therin?

 

Another thing that seems to have been missed is when Graendal visited Moridin at his keep in the Blight, what colour were his guards' coats again? Coincidence...I think not.

 

Can't recall which book it is in but it was certainly very early in the series; Moiriane speculates that the Pattern weaved Ishamael out of the DO's prison at various points throughout the ages and it is clear that these points were always times of chaos and war. So it is very conceivable that he was Taims teacher at an earlier stage than some people might think. His freedom from the prison didn't just happen all of a sudden, he spun out a number of times and Moiraine mentions that some Darkfriends had claimed to have seen him long before the generally accepted date of his release.

 

No, the ties between Ishy/Moridin and Taim/The Black Tower are far too numerous at this point to reach any other conclusion.

[Jon Storme]

shit sorry didnt mean to put that in the middle of your post. My most sincere apologies

[Finnssss22]

I have to agree with the rest: Ishamael is the most likely. However, just because he was channeling before the Forsaken were released doesn't mean he had complete control. Rand could channel decently even before he got Asmodean as a teacher and he feared it for awhile, unlike Taim (I would assume. He just seems like the kind of guy who would be like "Awesome Power that makes me go crazy? Sweet, Awesome Power!"). I think he got a rough control just through trial and error in the beginning and then when Ishamael broke free, he released Taim from the Aes Sedai control and began to teach him what he knows today.

 

 

Ishy had enough freedom and control to kill the head of the Black Ajah himself 18 years ago. His freedom and control has been enough at times, that he was able to become Hawkwing's lead adviser and enough to run the Trolloc wars previous to that. In which there were male Dreadlords and who else except Ishy himself could of trained them?

And how can you forget about the tEotW prologue, where Ishy "heals" Lews Therin?

 

Another thing that seems to have been missed is when Graendal visited Moridin at his keep in the Blight, what colour were his guards' coats again? Coincidence...I think not.

 

No, the ties between Ishy/Moridin and Taim/The Black Tower are far too numerous at this point to reach any other conclusion.

 

 

Can't recall which book it is in but it was certainly very early in the series; Moiriane speculates that the Pattern weaved Ishamael out of the DO's prison at various points throughout the ages and it is clear that these points were always times of chaos and war. So it is very conceivable that he was Taims teacher at an earlier stage than some people might think. His freedom from the prison didn't just happen all of a sudden, he spun out a number of times and Moiraine mentions that some Darkfriends had claimed to have seen him long before the generally accepted date of his release.

 

 

Easily fixed