Something of an experiment: Success (in my view)

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not sure what kind of response this will get, but here goes.

 

My brother recently began reading the series through for the first time. Tonight, he just finished the Fires of Heaven. I thought this would be a good oppportunity to conduct an experiment with an uncontaminated subject. Since, according to Jordan, the identity of Asmodean's murderer should be "intuitively obvious", and also, apparent from only information contained up to and through The Fires of Heaven, I asked him, point blank, "Who do you think killed Asmodean?"

 

He said, right away, "Probably Graendal."

 

He's never been to these or any other WoT boards, and he hasn't read ahead (he's reading my copies, so I've controlled his access :D ). So, there is one uncontaminated vote for Graendal. I'm interested to see what sort of response this gets ... and if anyone else has been able to conduct a similar experiment.

[Luckers]

I always thought Graendal the intuitively obvious choice too. I mean aside from the intellectual evidence in favour of her she is the one Forsaken involved in all those plots and stuff that wasn't up to something at the time. Indeed, she is the only Forsaken we knew at that stage who wasn't.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Just out of curiosity why does you brother suspect Graendel?

 

Don't get me wrong I agree with him, I'm just curious as to what his reasons are. When I first read the books 12 years ago my original list of suspects were Sammael, Graendel and Taim (who I really thougth was Demondred at the time). Sammael because at the time he seemed to have the biggest motivation to deprive Rand of a teacher, however given his conversation with Graendle in LOC he seemed to belive that Asmo was still alive. Taim also seemed to have a good motive for eliminating Rand's teacher because Taim's method of winning a spot in Rand's inner circle was by convincing Rand the he could teach him. However, if it can be figured out based on material from tFoH then that makes that motive moot since we didn't lean about it until LOC (and its become obvious that he isn't Demondred). Therefore, by process of elimination Graendel is the one

[RobertAlexWillis]

I asked him that, and he said it was because of the connection between Graendal and Rahvin (as part of their cabal with Lanfear and Sammael). Since she knew about Asmodean teaching al'Thor, she'd want to get rid of him. Then he said it just felt right.

 

So, pretty similar reasoning.

[Bob T Dwarf]

His reaction isn't the least surprising.

 

Asmo's death is just sudden enough and mysterious enough that everybody wants to jump immediately to supernatural reasons and causes. I did too.

 

Problem is that there are too many missing dots. It won't make a complete enough picture. Even though I wanted to make it one of the Forsaken, they just wouldn't fit.

 

Before I was aware that Jordan had specified that all the info was in FOH, I decided after reading subsequent books that it must have been Shaidar Haran. Once I learned he'd been DQ'd by not ( really... SH 0.5 doesn't count ) having been introduced yet, I was at a loss until I gave it a whole fresh reading and abandoned all my preconceptions.

[Luckers]

... What?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Asmo's death is just sudden enough and mysterious enough that everybody wants to jump immediately to supernatural reasons and causes. I did too.

 

But of course, we shouldn't take channeling into account. Because everyone knows, in a fantasy world, only real-world solutions apply.

 

Problem is that there are too many missing dots. It won't make a complete enough picture. Even though I wanted to make it one of the Forsaken, they just wouldn't fit.

 

Which of course explains how my brother was able to reach that conclusion immediately upon finishing the book. Seriously, I asked him within 5 minutes of the time he finished it. He walked into my computer room, asked "Which one is next? I just finished.", and I said "Lord of Chaos. So, who do you think killed Asmodean?" He replied, "Probably Graendal. Moiraine's not really dead, though, is she?"

 

(I got to say RAFO. Mwahahahahaha now I know why Jordan does it.)

 

 

 

I was kind of afraid this might happen to any Asmodean-related thread. I didn't want another forum for posting theories, so much as I was hoping to get reactions from other people who knew people new to the series, to get opinions uncontaminated by later books and extensive web-based spoilers.

[Magicana]

How would he know that Moiraine wasn't dead :shock:

[RobertAlexWillis]

He asked it as a question, but he sounded like he was suspicious.

 

He's a pretty smart fella too, but -shrug- I didn't ask him about that, and he's gone home now.

[Graendals favourite]

That's a nice thing to hear :D . Intuitively people know, even if they can't put a finger on the whys.

 

I haven't been able to do such an experiment, no one I know has read the books. It's incredibly difficult to get people to read 8000 pages in a foreign language, and the translation will not do because it would be inaccurate, what is the point in reading a translation of WoT. Especially when one of the high-points of the books are that you can read them again.. Convincing too easily sounds like that I-am-going-to-convert-you-to-a-new-religion kind of thing.

[SinisterDeath]

I knew moiraine wasn't dead even though everyone else said she was.... Even when I first started the books..

 

My first thought when someone asked me who killed asmo I said.. WHEND DID ASMO DIE?! HE WAS KILLED? I THOUGHT HE RAN AWAY OR SOMETHING!? :P

Seriously, on my first read, I some how completely missed that asmodean had been killed! I remembered the scene, I just didn't know he had infact died. :P

Then I got to one of the later books and one of the forsaken said he was dead... *right?* Bah rate i'm going I'll finish my 2nd or 3rd? re-read after the 12 book comes out. :P

[Bob T Dwarf]

Robert -

 

Of course you should take channeling into account. But, it's not the only piece of the puzzle. And, if the other pieces don't really fit, we can't trim and distort them until they do.

 

The whole problem with the death of Asmo is that it's become a contest to see who can come up with the most inventive way to make it Character X, rather than a critical reading of the text to see who Jordan intended. And various people have really cranked up their creativity. If this and maybe that and if only the other.

 

All wonderfully inventive stuff. None of it written by Jordan.

[Guest Majsju]

The whole problem with the death of Asmo is that it's become a contest to see who can come up with the most inventive way to make it Character X, rather than a critical reading of the text to see who Jordan intended. And various people have really cranked up their creativity. If this and maybe that and if only the other.

 

Funny you should say that, as you tend to be one of those most inclined to invent things, and not only in the case of Asmo.

 

However, most people who are discussing Asmo are doing the exact opposite, in that there are great efforts taken to try to reduce the inventive components as far as possible.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I asked him that' date=' and he said it was because of the connection between Graendal and Rahvin (as part of their cabal with Lanfear and Sammael). Since she knew about Asmodean teaching al'Thor, she'd want to get rid of him. Then he said it just felt right.

 

So, pretty similar reasoning.[/quote']

 

Robert,

 

Something just occured to me last night after I read and responded to you post. I don't know why it didn't occure to me before. All these years in trying to figure out who killed Asmo I've been considering who would have the best motive for eliminating him. However having recently completed my second reading of tFoH it occurs to me that this is the wrong way to go about it. It seems to me that Asmo encountered his murderer by happenstance because who could have known that he would go looking in the that particular pantry for wine. Thus it seems the the murderer did not go to Caymlen with the intent of eliminating Asmo, but rather they killed Asmo because he was unlucky enough to discover them. Therefore in looking for the killer we must consider who would have a motive for sneaking around the palace undetected at the particualr point in time.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I asked him that' date=' and he said it was because of the connection between Graendal and Rahvin (as part of their cabal with Lanfear and Sammael). Since she knew about Asmodean teaching al'Thor, she'd want to get rid of him. Then he said it just felt right.

 

So, pretty similar reasoning.[/quote']

 

Robert,

 

Something just occured to me last night after I read and responded to your post. I don't know why it didn't occure to me before. All these years in trying to figure out who killed Asmo I've been considering who would have the best motive for eliminating him. However having recently completed my second reading of tFoH it occurs to me that this is the wrong way to go about it. It seems to me that Asmo encountered his murderer by happenstance because who could have known that he would go looking in the that particular pantry for wine. Thus it seems that the murderer did not go to Caymlen with the intent of eliminating Asmo, but rather they killed Asmo because he was unlucky enough to discover them. Therefore in looking for the killer we must consider who would have a motive for sneaking around the palace undetected at the particualr point in time.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Magicana: How would he know that Moiraine wasn't dead :shock:

 

You didn't know she wasn't dead by the time you finished Fires of Heaven? I thought everyone figured that out right off. Maybe immediate realization of that was tied to recognization that she killed Asmodean. That was the event that proved to me she was still around. There was too much that didn't fit about the docks, so when Asmo was snuffed everything fell into place.

 

Robert: It is an interesting test, but doesn't benefit the case for Graendal as the killer in any form or manner. I can honestly say I read Fire's of Heaven in just as uncontaminated a state as your brother. Technically even more uncontaminated as I didn't even know anyone that had actually read the books. Prior to starting The Eye of the World, all I knew about them was that a librarian told me that if I liked Lord of the Rings I would like The Wheel of Time. This was either just before or after Fire's of Heaven was released and I read them straight through, not discussing the books with anyone. My immediate conclusion, without the probably, was that Moiraine killed Asmodean. Same situation when doing the initial read, completely different conclusion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK. Like I said, my only purpose for making THIS thread was to see what people said in those particular conditions. If you immediately thought "Moiraine did it" then thats what I want to hear, here.

 

I mean, you're wrong, naturally, but still ... :D

[chuckievi]

My sister in law is in the process of reading FoH for the first time, i'll ask her when shes done. Same situation, she is using my books, and as such i'll know when to ask because she'll be needing the next one :shock:

[Leopoled Boothe]

How would he know that Moiraine wasn't dead :shock:

 

How could anyone believe the Moiraine actually was dead? I knew that Moiraine wasn't really dead from the moment she "died" because there was no corpse. When you're dealing with a character like Moiraine unless you can produce a corpse they aren't dead.

[chuckievi]

and even with a corpse i'd still wonder...

[rochaid]

i knew moraine wasn't dead when rand said something like "moraines dead" (i don't have the book on me so sorry bout the vagueness) and one of the wise ones replies "you are a fool rand,about this and other things".that shouted at me that moraine wasn't finished.

 

i didn't have a clue who killed asmo at first,my first loony thought was maybe ishmael had been recycled,as i just knew he wasn't finished,then i came to search WoT on the web and realised it couldn't have been him.

 

i have looked thouroughly at all the arguments for the killer objectively, and decided that graendal is the prime suspect.

[Jonn]

Honestly, most people I have talked to about this subject outside of the internet say that they had no idea who killed Asmodean...

 

Nor were they aware that they should have come to a conclusion at that point. They thought, like I did, that an answer would be forthcoming.

 

The only impression I had when I read the passage for the first time was that it could be a number of people, but that it was probably going to be a surprise. As Moiraine had just "died", I figured that would be a pretty big surprise not only to me but to Asmodean probably.

 

I had a vague thought that one of the Forsaken killed him, but I never settled on Graendal, or even close to putting her in the slot. I was thinking that it could have been one of the forsaken that hasn't been seen yet, or Sammael. I honestly considered Lanfear for a bit as well, but it didn't quite stick with me.

 

In reality, I never really could settle on who did it when I first read the book. People I have spoken to about it say that they pretty much couldn't say either at first read.

 

Graendal was a suspect I guess, in the most general of senses, but she never made a strong enough impression at that point to single herself out from the pack.

 

As for the motive involved for why she would be in Caemlyn. It's rather inconsistent for readers to come to a conclusion about her behavior because we really hadn't seen enough of her at that point to figure any motivation for her actions.

 

Lanfear, Moiraine and even Sammael, we were already well versed in. So it is quite natural that they would be considered as frontrunners for Asmodean's murder.

[Luckers]

Lanfear, Moiraine and even Sammael, we were already well versed in. So it is quite natural that they would be considered as frontrunners for Asmodean's murder.

 

Yet Graendal rightly slots in there, for she was present at all the gatherings... frankly for me it seemed obvious that it was going to be either Sammael or Graendal, and since Sammael was off waiting to be attacked i did lean towards Graendal.

[Jonn]

Lanfear, Moiraine and even Sammael, we were already well versed in. So it is quite natural that they would be considered as frontrunners for Asmodean's murder.

 

Yet Graendal rightly slots in there, for she was present at all the gatherings... frankly for me it seemed obvious that it was going to be either Sammael or Graendal, and since Sammael was off waiting to be attacked i did lean towards Graendal.

 

The fact that Sammael was such a strong suspect is what weakens Graendal for me. Up until that point in the story, we were becoming rather familiar with Sammael.

We came to know that he had a keen military mind, and was rather cautious, but could be bold when it suited him. There was every reason to think that he would want to reduce Rand's strength in whatever way he could. Killing Asmodean was a logical course to that end.

Of Graendal though, we knew precious little up to that point. We kind of get the idea that she likes to appear frivolous or whatever, but there really isn't too much for us to go on to make a judgement as to why she would risk exposure in Caemlyn. There weren't any objects of interest there for her. Whatever information she could have gleaned was more or less made moot by the fact that she met with Demandred in the very next book and got briefed on what happened there.

Say she did in fact do it. Why keep it a secret? What does that serve? Why the lack of even an inner monlogue in a POV, explaining what happened? If it's so obvious, what's the big deal about even mentioning it?

There is an example of a mystery solved later in a POV of a character. It comes in Lord of Chaos in fact. When the trollocs came to Rand's rescue in the Stone of Tear, most people suspected that Lanfear was teh one who brought them into the Stone to fight Sammael's shadowspawn. In Lord of Chaos, Semirhage not only eliminates herself as Asmodean's killer, but she also admits that she was in fact the one who was ordered to order the trollocs to defend Rand at the Stone. This happened in her POV and to disclose that information only took a couple pages.

What makes Graendal so different? Fact is, she's had POVs in the following books, and NEVER does she mention killing Asmodean, even when the subject is about him.

 

Sammael reveals his own ignorance as to what happened and he is known to be cautious as the come when it gets down to playing games with the other Forsaken.

 

Graendal on the other hand flat denies knowing anything about what happened other than what she was told by Demandred. In fact, she simply relays what she was told by Demandred to Sammael.

 

Up until that point, there really was no reason to even doubt that Sammael had taken care of Asmodean. He was expecting a full assault on Illian that day. It never came. Spies embedded within Caihien must have relayed to him that Rand had left with a party of Aiel. Rand never arrives in Illian, so...Caemlyn would be the logical choice.

 

He in fact has a better motive for both showing up in Caemlyn and for killing Asmodean that Graendal does. Yet still, people through some form of hindsight logic still feel that Graendal just pops up as naturally as anything else.

 

It's quite incredible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's quite incredible.

 

It'll be even more incredible when it turns out she did it. :D