Aes Sedai Bonded!

[XXX]

Rand knows what the Reds do. If he wants to protect them, then he has to protect them, either by keeping his people away from Aes Sedai, fighting some perpetual war, or (and possibly the best solution) negotiating with the WT to cease the practice. If he just lets the BT sit there while the WT goes after them, there's no way that's the WT's fault...

 

"I DECLARE AN AMNESTY. Alright, now that I've made you all targets, you're on your own. Good Luck."

 

 

Obviously they can protect themselves very well..what happened to the invasion group?

[Guest PiotrekS]

Personally, I think that the Aes Sedai all have brains and should therefore use them. If the order they are given is unlawful then they shouldn't just meekly follow it. The fact that they may be blinded by 3000 years of hate and so on and so forth does not excuse them. It helps understand why they would think what they doing is right, but it still doesn't excuse them, especially when what they were going to do is so clearly EVIL.

 

That said, what would excuse them is if they had no knowledge of precisely what they were ordered to do. I may be wrong but I don't believe anyone other than Toveine (who we already knew had big issues telling wrong and right apart) knew exactly what they were ordered to do. They knew they were going after the Ashaman, but I don't know if they knew what they were doing was unlawful. Gabrelle didn't seem to know.

 

It seems reasonable. I was wondering myself how it was possible that all those Aes Sedai accepted with no doubts the order to exterminate innocent people against their own law. When we saw Logain in WT, I had the impression he was treated well and with certain compassion, as though the Aes Sedai and Accepted regretted what had to be done, even if it had been necessary. I think that apart from Toveine, they might not have known.

 

You say that Rand doesn't matter in this, but I have to admit I don't agree with that. Why do the Aes Sedai have the decision making power over what should happen to male channelers? For 3000 years (more or less), they haven't met any resistance from the rulers of other nations on this subject, because those rulers were all for their method. Rand, however clearly opposes it. And he has formed, under his authority, an organisation of male channelers? Now, why should the Aes Sedai have the power to decide what to do with those male channellers, instead of Rand? What gives them the right to decide what happens in his territory, where he has power, and where he certainly does not recognise the right of the Aes Sedai to deal with male channellers as they please?

 

So the fact that AS saved the world from this threat during the breaking and protected Randland for 3000 years gains them no leeway in the matter? The fact that they are the only group that steps up to deal with it all those years gives them the right to make the decision of how male channelers were to be dealt with. There was no one else to do that very difficult job.

 

 

The reason Rand doesn't factor in is because when he made the decision no one had any idea he could cleanse the taint. In my mind the most negligent thing Rand has done is create a living timebomb and walk away from it with zero oversight so it can become the major power for the Shadow it has.

 

Also since when is Andor Rand's territory?

 

Edit: When you start taking about "right" it's a tricky thing. TG is coming and many difficult decisions need to be made, not all of them will be correct. If someone like Rand thinks he has the "right" to slaughter hundreds of innocents at Natrim's Barrow to take out a forsaken, you can see how some overzealous Red's thought it was their duty to follow through on this order.

 

All your reasoning might at most justify gentling the Asha'man. Killing them, as well as non-channelers, has nothing to do with your arguments.

 

Even if I was to accept giving certain leeway to Aes Sedai about it because they had been dealing with mad channelers for centuries, it is still a fact that the orders infringed WT's own laws and traditions! There were to be no trial and small additional bonus, the hangings for everyone, not only channelers. I repeat, the people who posed no threat at all were to be killed as well, on the spot. With every word I type I'm more convinced the majority of Aes Sedai had to be unaware of their real orders. The WT's jurisdiction over male channelers, although largely usurped, is at least traditional and has some reasonable justification. But they had no jurisdiction whatsoever over non-channelers on Andoran soil!

 

Andor is definitely more Rand's territory than the WT's. BT at least is in fact an extra-territorial and largely outside Andoran jurisdiction. Even accepting that Andor is totally independent of Rand and BT is simply another part of Andor, it still gives the Aes Sedai no more right to kill anyone. Unless you're claiming they had Andoran approval for their expedition?

 

I would not say Rand ever thought he had any right to destroy Natrim's Barrow. He thought it was just another crime to add to his list and that it was necessary. I don't remember seeing him justify himself for that.

[MasterAblar]

You say that Rand doesn't matter in this, but I have to admit I don't agree with that. Why do the Aes Sedai have the decision making power over what should happen to male channelers? For 3000 years (more or less), they haven't met any resistance from the rulers of other nations on this subject, because those rulers were all for their method. Rand, however clearly opposes it. And he has formed, under his authority, an organisation of male channelers? Now, why should the Aes Sedai have the power to decide what to do with those male channellers, instead of Rand? What gives them the right to decide what happens in his territory, where he has power, and where he certainly does not recognise the right of the Aes Sedai to deal with male channellers as they please?

 

So the fact that AS saved the world from this threat during the breaking and protected Randland for 3000 years gains them no leeway in the matter? The fact that they are the only group that steps up to deal with it all those years gives them the right to make the decision of how male channelers were to be dealt with. There was no one else to do that very difficult job.

 

 

The reason Rand doesn't factor in is because when he made the decision no one had any idea he could cleanse the taint. In my mind the most negligent thing Rand has done is create a living timebomb and walk away from it with zero oversight so it can become the major power for the Shadow it has.

 

Also since when is Andor Rand's territory?

 

Edit: When you start taking about "right" it's a tricky thing. TG is coming and many difficult decisions need to be made, not all of them will be correct. If someone like Rand thinks he has the "right" to slaughter hundreds of innocents at Natrim's Barrow to take out a forsaken, you can see how some overzealous Red's thought it was their duty to follow through on this order.

 

Andor is not Rand's territory. The region around Caemlyn on the other hand, was, essentially his. And even now, the BT may be in Andor, but Elayne know she has no real power there.

 

For all that the Aes Sedai have done to protect the world from male channellers, do they have authority over the Aiel ones? Sea Folk? Seanchan? Sharan? No, they had authority in Randland because they were the only power to deal with them, and because no one opposed them on their methods. Now however, someone has come who has his own way of dealing with male channellers and who opposes their methods and who rules a territory where those methods are lawful. And the Aes Sedai can not walk right over him on this matter, they don't have the power to do so.

 

History does not give the Aes Sedai the right to deal with the male channellers. The rulers of the various nations gave them that right. Of course the Aes Sedai would have done it anyway even if the rulers did not agree, but the fact that they were supported by them gave them the right to intervene in those rulers territories to deal with male channellers. They do not have that right in the territories ruled by Rand because he does not give them that right, he does not empower them to deal with male channellers. If they don't agree with him on how he deals with male channellers, then they should take it up with him. If they try and kill those male channellers though, then I consider it nothing more than murder. I don't know if there are any laws in the various nations in regards to the situation of male channellers. In other words, I don't know what their legal status is. However, where Rand rules it's clear that killing a male channeller is the same as killing an ordinary citizen, and gentling a male channeller simply because he is a male channeller, is also unlawful.

 

The taint is of no importance to me. The issue is whether the Aes Sedai have the right to intervene in territories under Rand's rule, against his wishes in violation of his laws, and I consider that they do not.

[Suttree]

The taint is of no importance to me. The issue is whether the Aes Sedai have the right to intervene in territories under Rand's rule, against his wishes in violation of his laws, and I consider that they do not.

 

See here is the flaw in your argument. Rand was regent in Andor nothing more. He never conquered, never allowed the Aiel to take the fifth, and the BT is not an autonomous state. Elayne told Taim straight up it's under Andoran law. You are crazy if you think Rand wouldn't allow Elayne to enforce the law their. When deciding wether it is Rand's territory, why don't we let his words decide.

 

LoC ch 16

"I will not welcome you-this is your land, and the palace of your Queen"

 

Edit: I am also interested in hearing your thoughts on Rand killing innocents at Natrims Barrow. If he thought that was his duty, can you not see the Red's thinking the same when relating to taint touched male channelers?

[MasterAblar]

The taint is of no importance to me. The issue is whether the Aes Sedai have the right to intervene in territories under Rand's rule, against his wishes in violation of his laws, and I consider that they do not.

 

See here is the flaw in your argument. Rand was regent in Andor nothing more. He never conquered, never allowed the Aiel to take the fifth, and the BT is not an autonomous state. Elayne told Taim straight up it's under Andoran law. You are crazy if you think Rand wouldn't allow Elayne to enforce the law their. When deciding wether it is Rand's territory, why don't we let his words decide.

 

LoC ch 16

"I will not welcome you-this is your land, and the palace of your Queen"

 

There's what is official and what is unofficial. In name, yes, no part of Andor has ever been Rand's, but it was nonetheless his forces that kept the peace and instilled order. Officialy he never conquered it, but it's clear that he was the real power there for the duration of his stay. And the Aes Sedai attacked while he was there, or at least while his forces still controled Caemlyn and the surrounding area. The very existence of the BT is proof that he had power there.

 

Elayne says that to Taim, but she admits to the High Seats that there is really nothing she can do there. She can send her guards and pretend she has control there, but in the end, she knows full well that she has no power in the BT.

 

And just how would enforce the law. What ability does she have to force the Ashaman to do anything.

 

But if the BT had been built in Cairhien, which is definitely his, instead of Caemlyn, would it make any difference to you?

 

Edit: Sorry, it's like 2 am here and I really need to sleep, but I'll get back to you on this and the other thread tomorow.

[Suttree]

I would not say Rand ever thought he had any right to destroy Natrim's Barrow. He thought it was just another crime to add to his list and that it was necessary. I don't remember seeing him justify himself for that.

 

and that is my point. No one is justifying anything. If Rand saw that as his duty and thought that slaughtering innocents was necessary then no matter how wrong Elaida's order was, can you not see how some Red's would think the same? TG is coming and difficult decision need to be made.

[Suttree]

There's what is official and what is unofficial. In name, yes, no part of Andor has ever been Rand's, but it was nonetheless his forces that kept the peace and instilled order. Officialy he never conquered it, but it's clear that he was the real power there for the duration of his stay. And the Aes Sedai attacked while he was there, or at least while his forces still controled Caemlyn and the surrounding area. The very existence of the BT is proof that he had power there.

 

Elayne says that to Taim, but she admits to the High Seats that there is really nothing she can do there. She can send her guards and pretend she has control there, but in the end, she knows full well that she has no power in the BT.

 

And just how would enforce the law. What ability does she have to force the Ashaman to do anything.

 

But if the BT had been built in Cairhien, which is definitely his, instead of Caemlyn, would it make any difference to you?

 

It's clear what the sentiment was during his stay.

 

LoC

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

 

In addition for some reason people seem to forget that there were 65 days after Rand left that saw Dyelin acting as regent before Elayne returned.

 

And his forces were not in control, during tPoD Elayne had returned and Bashere and Rhuarc where outside the city with Bashere saying they could take no part in helping her.

 

At least if the BT had been built somewhere like Tear or Illian he would have the right to do as he did. But then again someone could just say the DR breaks all bonds or some such to say he could do it anywhere technically.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I would not say Rand ever thought he had any right to destroy Natrim's Barrow. He thought it was just another crime to add to his list and that it was necessary. I don't remember seeing him justify himself for that.

 

and that is my point. No one is justifying anything. If Rand saw that as his duty and thought that slaughtering innocents was necessary then no matter how wrong Elaida's order was, can you not see how some Red's would think the same? TG is coming and difficult decision need to be made.

 

Except there was no way gentled Asha'man or con-channnelers were posing any threat to anybody. Rand did it to off extremely dangerous Forsaken. The analogy would hold if Rand had been able to kill Graendal with a precision strike and only then decided to wipe out Natrim's Barrow for sheer fun.

[MasterAblar]

There's what is official and what is unofficial. In name, yes, no part of Andor has ever been Rand's, but it was nonetheless his forces that kept the peace and instilled order. Officialy he never conquered it, but it's clear that he was the real power there for the duration of his stay. And the Aes Sedai attacked while he was there, or at least while his forces still controled Caemlyn and the surrounding area. The very existence of the BT is proof that he had power there.

 

Elayne says that to Taim, but she admits to the High Seats that there is really nothing she can do there. She can send her guards and pretend she has control there, but in the end, she knows full well that she has no power in the BT.

 

And just how would enforce the law. What ability does she have to force the Ashaman to do anything.

 

But if the BT had been built in Cairhien, which is definitely his, instead of Caemlyn, would it make any difference to you?

 

It's clear what the sentiment was during his stay.

 

LoC

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

 

In addition for some reason people seem to forget that there were 65 days after Rand left that saw Dyelin acting as regent before Elayne returned.

 

And his forces were not in control, during tPoD Elayne had returned and Bashere and Rhuarc where outside the city with Bashere saying they could take no part in helping her.

 

At least if the BT had been built somewhere like Tear or Illian he would have the right to do as he did. But then again someone could just say the DR breaks all bonds or some such to say he could do it anywhere technically.

 

What matters is when Elaida gave the order, not when the attack happened. That's when the decision was made.

 

As for the general sentiment about Rand, I don't see that it matters. What matters is whether he has control or not, and he most certainly did when the order was given.

 

What I see as the problem is that the Aes Sedai see themselves as the only ones who can decide what to do with male channellerss. But why should they have that power where Rand gives them non? He certainly made it clear that the Aes Sedai were to stay clear of the BT. And the rebel Aes Sedai did stay clear. Elaida however did not accept that he could decide what to do with male channellers where he had power. And I want to point out that it's Elaida that I hold responsible as she is the one who gave the order not the red ajah. I was not the red ajah's iniative so I don't see why they would be responsible.

 

Of course I don't think Elaida ever respected Rand or his authority in the regions he controlled in any way what so ever, so I hardly expected her to see that she had no right to gentle male channellers which he had responsibility for.

 

If the Aes Sedai in Toveine's party were not aware of exactly what they were supposed to do at the BT, then they can't be blamed for anything. Elaida and Toveine are the only two who are clearly in the wrong. Elaida for both ordering an attack she has no right to, and for giving such unlawful orders. Toveine for having no problem with carying out those orders.

 

The difference between Rand and those two, is that Rand know what he did is wrong and he never attempts to justify it. Does that make it alright? Of course not. His actions were still wrong, but the fact is that he attempts to repent for his actions, which include the balefiring of Natrim's Barrow, and clearly shows remorse for them. Elaida and Toveine, on the other hand, don't see anything wrong with what they've done, and certainly don't feel any remorse. And karma got both of them: Elaida is now damane, and Toveine is bonded against her will to what is essentially what she hates the most, a male channeller.

[David Selig]

If the Aes Sedai had just let the male channellers over the years to gather, recruit and teach other, and had respected their authority when they had taken over some country or province, that would've led to many disasters over the years, when they inevitably go insane and start turning cities into ashes. The Asha'man were a tickling time bomb which didn't end up in a disaster only because of extreme luck and Rand's cleansing of saidin which couldn't have been expected by Elaida. And could still turn out to be ore of a hindrance than asset for the Light, given that Taim has managed to convert many of the strongest Asha'man into Darkfriends.

 

The order to kill them all was certainly wrong, they should've stuck to the normal procedure for gentling, but I can't blame Elaida for thinking male channellers gathering and teaching each other with the taint still in place was hugely dangerous and had to be dealt it.

[MasterAblar]

If the Aes Sedai had just let the male channellers over the years to gather, recruit and teach other, and had respected their authority when they had taken over some country or province, that would've led to many disasters over the years, when they inevitably go insane and start turning cities into ashes. The Asha'man were a tickling time bomb which didn't end up in a disaster only because of extreme luck and Rand's cleansing of saidin which couldn't have been expected by Elaida. And could still turn out to be ore of a hindrance than asset for the Light, given that Taim has managed to convert many of the strongest Asha'man into Darkfriends.

 

The order to kill them all was certainly wrong, they should've stuck to the normal procedure for gentling, but I can't blame Elaida for thinking male channellers gathering and teaching each other with the taint still in place was hugely dangerous and had to be dealt it.

 

Yes, but everyone agreed on the manner in which the male channellers had to be dealt with. There was no conflict. But with Rand's arrival someone does disagree, and has his own manner of dealing with them, which, lucky or not, has so far not turned into a disaster (in terms of them all going mad I mean) and that has caused a conflict, because Rand is powerful enough that they can't ignore him. Why should Elaida's view on how the male channellers are to be dealt with, supercede Rand's? If these male channellers were Aiel or Sea Folk, would Elaida be justified in sending a group of Aes Sedai to gentle them?

[Dagon Thyne]

Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

There is also the fact that an Aes Sedi bonded to a male channelor is bound to him like a slave and must obey his commands. This is different than a typical warder/channelor relationship, like how Birgitte can disobey Elayne, and does not have to obey her every command.

 

As far as I could tell, it was frowned up for an Aes Sedai to force their warders to obey them since the warders' duty is to protect her, even from herself and not just obey her.

 

Egwene or any of the AS have no idea what type of bonding has been used by the Asha'man.

 

 

It doesn't really matter, they are upset that the bonding was done against the will of the Aes Sedai involved, which is all but forbidden in the White Tower. Add the fact that the taint being cleansed is viewed as little more than rumor and that they fear Aes Sedai being bonded to a group of madmen, and they have a legit reason to be concerned, from their point of view.

[MasterAblar]

Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

There is also the fact that an Aes Sedi bonded to a male channelor is bound to him like a slave and must obey his commands. This is different than a typical warder/channelor relationship, like how Birgitte can disobey Elayne, and does not have to obey her every command.

 

As far as I could tell, it was frowned up for an Aes Sedai to force their warders to obey them since the warders' duty is to protect her, even from herself and not just obey her.

 

Egwene or any of the AS have no idea what type of bonding has been used by the Asha'man.

 

 

It doesn't really matter, they are upset that the bonding was done against the will of the Aes Sedai involved, which is all but forbidden in the White Tower. Add the fact that the taint being cleansed is viewed as little more than rumor and that they fear Aes Sedai being bonded to a group of madmen, and they have a legit reason to be concerned, from their point of view.

 

Sure, but overall they're reactions seem to be more indignation that men would bond women. Nyneave and Egwene have both mentioned that they thought it was wrong. And the Aes Sedai have never really shown concern or worry for the bonded Aes Sedai. It was more anger towards the fact that it happened at all. And I wouldn't say that the taint being cleansed is a rumor. More that, while they believe it (an Aes Sedai, Merise, confirmed it, and she can't lie) they have a hard time getting used to it, just like everyone else really.

 

I'm actually quite impatient to see what Egwene is going to tell Rand on the subject. I mean, what else could the Ashaman have done? Apart from killing the Aes Sedai, which Rand had forbidden.

[XXX]

Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

There is also the fact that an Aes Sedi bonded to a male channelor is bound to him like a slave and must obey his commands. This is different than a typical warder/channelor relationship, like how Birgitte can disobey Elayne, and does not have to obey her every command.

 

As far as I could tell, it was frowned up for an Aes Sedai to force their warders to obey them since the warders' duty is to protect her, even from herself and not just obey her.

 

Egwene or any of the AS have no idea what type of bonding has been used by the Asha'man.

 

 

It doesn't really matter, they are upset that the bonding was done against the will of the Aes Sedai involved, which is all but forbidden in the White Tower. Add the fact that the taint being cleansed is viewed as little more than rumor and that they fear Aes Sedai being bonded to a group of madmen, and they have a legit reason to be concerned, from their point of view.

 

As we have seen through a no of examples from earlier in the thread, the AS hold to the same views even after being told that the male source is clean by other AS.

[Mr Ares]

I don't see how that really follows. How is Toveine to know that the BT wouldn't still them, for example? She's been sent to deal with a small group of channeling men, or so she believes. If those men found out she was planning to kill them, they would probably not react well. Which is to say, they would string her up. She is talking about the reaction of the Asha'man, not of the WT. They were sent to kill the Asha'man, nothing more.

She also doesn't know if they can still a woman channeler. The women use a circle to do that.

The only guy who did that was Rand, and he managed to do it by himself, without a circle, because he's much stronger than anyone else and had some help from LTT. I don't know if the Asha'man can still a woman, even if they wanted to.

Ashaman can't still men channelers(PoD), so they poison the ones that go crazy directly.

If they wanted them dead, why bother to still them first? They could just hang them directly, or just cut their heads off, while they were still shielded.

 

The WT is the only institution in the world that has stilling+penance or stilling+execution as a punishment for the most heinous crimes, like murdering people without trial in the WT.

If the WT wanted someone dead, why still them first? The fact that one group does it means another might. Toveine does not know the extent of their knowledge. Thus stilling is a potential problem. In all, you have presented no reason to believe she was talking about the WT hanging them as opposed to the BT. And of course Asha'man can't still male channelers. Only women can be stilled - men are gentled.

 

 

Then why persist in pretending that the actions of the Reds were in any way justified, or in denying that the actions of the Asha'man were justified?

 

This statement: "the Red's were in someways doing their duty." Is untrue. Under IN-WORLD laws and customs.

 

The Ahsaman were justified in adding that bit to the bond that requires obedience? They couldn't have just done it the normal way?

 

As for in-world laws and customs, as you know they change with the times. What was okay during the Breaking is frowned upon now. My point, is it the first or last time Red's have stilled and hanged men without bringing them to the WT first? I doubt it and with TG on the doorstep, who knows what they think they are right in doing to a group that is growing larger by the day and will some day pose an enormous threat to the world. So yes, in "someways" they thought they were doing their duty.

They added nothing. Re-read the text. AS can compel obedience from their Warders. The "extra bit" refers to something else entirely.

The extra bit refers to the compulsive aspect of the bond. The Asha'man developed the bond for use on wives - thus without the compulsive aspect. It was indeed an extra from their point of view.

[Kahsm]

Yes, the extra bit is relative to their original discovery, not to the AS bond.

 

As for RJ saying "the kiss is required because that's how they learned it". I took as similar to how AS make a throwing motion for a fireball, but wise ones may not. Same weave, just different technique.

[Suttree]

Then why persist in pretending that the actions of the Reds were in any way justified, or in denying that the actions of the Asha'man were justified?

 

This statement: "the Red's were in someways doing their duty." Is untrue. Under IN-WORLD laws and customs.

 

The Ahsaman were justified in adding that bit to the bond that requires obedience? They couldn't have just done it the normal way?

 

As for in-world laws and customs, as you know they change with the times. What was okay during the Breaking is frowned upon now. My point, is it the first or last time Red's have stilled and hanged men without bringing them to the WT first? I doubt it and with TG on the doorstep, who knows what they think they are right in doing to a group that is growing larger by the day and will some day pose an enormous threat to the world. So yes, in "someways" they thought they were doing their duty.

They added nothing. Re-read the text. AS can compel obedience from their Warders. The "extra bit" refers to something else entirely.

The extra bit refers to the compulsive aspect of the bond. The Asha'man developed the bond for use on wives - thus without the compulsive aspect. It was indeed an extra from their point of view.

 

Yes that is how I always read it as well, in addition RJ's quotes seem to support it.

[randsc]

Then why persist in pretending that the actions of the Reds were in any way justified, or in denying that the actions of the Asha'man were justified?

 

This statement: "the Red's were in someways doing their duty." Is untrue. Under IN-WORLD laws and customs.

 

The Ahsaman were justified in adding that bit to the bond that requires obedience? They couldn't have just done it the normal way?

 

As for in-world laws and customs, as you know they change with the times. What was okay during the Breaking is frowned upon now. My point, is it the first or last time Red's have stilled and hanged men without bringing them to the WT first? I doubt it and with TG on the doorstep, who knows what they think they are right in doing to a group that is growing larger by the day and will some day pose an enormous threat to the world. So yes, in "someways" they thought they were doing their duty.

They added nothing. Re-read the text. AS can compel obedience from their Warders. The "extra bit" refers to something else entirely.

The extra bit refers to the compulsive aspect of the bond. The Asha'man developed the bond for use on wives - thus without the compulsive aspect. It was indeed an extra from their point of view.

 

Yes that is how I always read it as well, in addition RJ's quotes seem to support it.

 

How so? The "extra bit" that Logain finds distasteful is clearly the physical contact required, and the effect on the one bonded. There is already compulsion in the bond, even as employ by the AS, so no "extra bit" of compulsion is required.

 

The RJ quotes already posted do nothing at all to resolve the question. Are there others?

[Suttree]

Then why persist in pretending that the actions of the Reds were in any way justified, or in denying that the actions of the Asha'man were justified?

 

This statement: "the Red's were in someways doing their duty." Is untrue. Under IN-WORLD laws and customs.

 

The Ahsaman were justified in adding that bit to the bond that requires obedience? They couldn't have just done it the normal way?

 

As for in-world laws and customs, as you know they change with the times. What was okay during the Breaking is frowned upon now. My point, is it the first or last time Red's have stilled and hanged men without bringing them to the WT first? I doubt it and with TG on the doorstep, who knows what they think they are right in doing to a group that is growing larger by the day and will some day pose an enormous threat to the world. So yes, in "someways" they thought they were doing their duty.

They added nothing. Re-read the text. AS can compel obedience from their Warders. The "extra bit" refers to something else entirely.

The extra bit refers to the compulsive aspect of the bond. The Asha'man developed the bond for use on wives - thus without the compulsive aspect. It was indeed an extra from their point of view.

 

Yes that is how I always read it as well, in addition RJ's quotes seem to support it.

 

How so? The "extra bit" that Logain finds distasteful is clearly the physical contact required, and the effect on the one bonded. There is already compulsion in the bond, even as employ by the AS, so no "extra bit" of compulsion is required.

 

The RJ quotes already posted do nothing at all to resolve the question. Are there others?

 

In the first quote RJ says the kiss/physical contact is not the "extra bit". In the second he differentiates it from the AS bond. Clearly there is enough evidence in the text and quotes to support our interpretation.

[MasterAblar]

Then why persist in pretending that the actions of the Reds were in any way justified, or in denying that the actions of the Asha'man were justified?

 

This statement: "the Red's were in someways doing their duty." Is untrue. Under IN-WORLD laws and customs.

 

The Ahsaman were justified in adding that bit to the bond that requires obedience? They couldn't have just done it the normal way?

 

As for in-world laws and customs, as you know they change with the times. What was okay during the Breaking is frowned upon now. My point, is it the first or last time Red's have stilled and hanged men without bringing them to the WT first? I doubt it and with TG on the doorstep, who knows what they think they are right in doing to a group that is growing larger by the day and will some day pose an enormous threat to the world. So yes, in "someways" they thought they were doing their duty.

They added nothing. Re-read the text. AS can compel obedience from their Warders. The "extra bit" refers to something else entirely.

The extra bit refers to the compulsive aspect of the bond. The Asha'man developed the bond for use on wives - thus without the compulsive aspect. It was indeed an extra from their point of view.

 

Yes that is how I always read it as well, in addition RJ's quotes seem to support it.

 

How so? The "extra bit" that Logain finds distasteful is clearly the physical contact required, and the effect on the one bonded. There is already compulsion in the bond, even as employ by the AS, so no "extra bit" of compulsion is required.

 

The RJ quotes already posted do nothing at all to resolve the question. Are there others?

 

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

[csarmi]

I would not say Rand ever thought he had any right to destroy Natrim's Barrow. He thought it was just another crime to add to his list and that it was necessary. I don't remember seeing him justify himself for that.

 

and that is my point. No one is justifying anything. If Rand saw that as his duty and thought that slaughtering innocents was necessary then no matter how wrong Elaida's order was, can you not see how some Red's would think the same? TG is coming and difficult decision need to be made.

 

Except there was no way gentled Asha'man or con-channnelers were posing any threat to anybody. Rand did it to off extremely dangerous Forsaken. The analogy would hold if Rand had been able to kill Graendal with a precision strike and only then decided to wipe out Natrim's Barrow for sheer fun.

 

Yea because if you gentle a couple of male channelers they won't hate you and try to take you down.

[Lisa Campbell]

Then why persist in pretending that the actions of the Reds were in any way justified, or in denying that the actions of the Asha'man were justified?

 

This statement: "the Red's were in someways doing their duty." Is untrue. Under IN-WORLD laws and customs.

 

The Ahsaman were justified in adding that bit to the bond that requires obedience? They couldn't have just done it the normal way?

 

As for in-world laws and customs, as you know they change with the times. What was okay during the Breaking is frowned upon now. My point, is it the first or last time Red's have stilled and hanged men without bringing them to the WT first? I doubt it and with TG on the doorstep, who knows what they think they are right in doing to a group that is growing larger by the day and will some day pose an enormous threat to the world. So yes, in "someways" they thought they were doing their duty.

They added nothing. Re-read the text. AS can compel obedience from their Warders. The "extra bit" refers to something else entirely.

The extra bit refers to the compulsive aspect of the bond. The Asha'man developed the bond for use on wives - thus without the compulsive aspect. It was indeed an extra from their point of view.

 

Yes that is how I always read it as well, in addition RJ's quotes seem to support it.

 

How so? The "extra bit" that Logain finds distasteful is clearly the physical contact required, and the effect on the one bonded. There is already compulsion in the bond, even as employ by the AS, so no "extra bit" of compulsion is required.

 

The RJ quotes already posted do nothing at all to resolve the question. Are there others?

 

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

 

I always took that "extra bit" that Logain could have done without as Toveine's err, French, reaction to the kiss and the bonding.

[Xcorpyo001]

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

 

 

The bond created by the Ashaman had no Compulsion to begin with.

Since they created the bond just to keep in touch with their family, they didn't saw any reason to add Compulsion, and because they thought that husband-love one was the only way they'll use it, they didn't bothered to find another way of implementing it, so they used the kiss even after they change it to accommodate the AS.

 

When they bonded the AS, they changed the bond and added the Compulsion part, that was the only way they could be sure they will not try to escape or to attack them. That's why he said he added the extra part(Compulsion): since she's not his wife/friend, he couldn't just trust her blindly and hope she won't try to escape, so he used Compulsion to make sure she won't do something stupid.

The only other safe way to deal with them was to kill them after they were captured and no longer a thread(just as their orders were to deal with the AM), which the AM couldn't do because Rand told them not to, and they are good guys, all things considered.

I guess they could have bypassed the bonding if they had a Oath Rod, but alas, no such luck.

[Lisa Campbell]

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

 

 

The bond created by the Ashaman had no Compulsion to begin with.

Since they created the bond just to keep in touch with their family, they didn't saw any reason to add Compulsion, and because they thought that husband-love one was the only way they'll use it, they didn't bothered to find another way of implementing it, so they used the kiss even after they change it to accommodate the AS.

 

When they bonded the AS, they changed the bond and added the Compulsion part, that was the only way they could be sure they will not try to escape or to attack them. That's why he said he added the extra part(Compulsion): since she's not his wife/friend, he couldn't just trust her blindly and hope she won't try to escape, so he used Compulsion to make sure she won't do something stupid.

The only other safe way to deal with them was to kill them after they were captured and no longer a thread(just as their orders were to deal with the AM), which the AM couldn't do because Rand told them not to, and they are good guys, all things considered.

I guess they could have bypassed the bonding if they had a Oath Rod, but alas, no such luck.

 

Yeah but IIRC there is nothing in the books to say that the compulsion was not in the original bond. Being well trained husbands in Randland, would they even try to order their wives around? I don't recall any experimenting or even time to get compulsion in there if it was added later. If that was indeed the case, I think RJ would have slipped some foreshadowing or explanation in there at some stage.

 

Edited to add: maybe they accidentally found out about the compulsion when telling their wives not to worry when they are leaving on mission and feeling serenity replace angst in the bond.

[Xcorpyo001]

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

 

 

The bond created by the Ashaman had no Compulsion to begin with.

Since they created the bond just to keep in touch with their family, they didn't saw any reason to add Compulsion, and because they thought that husband-love one was the only way they'll use it, they didn't bothered to find another way of implementing it, so they used the kiss even after they change it to accommodate the AS.

 

When they bonded the AS, they changed the bond and added the Compulsion part, that was the only way they could be sure they will not try to escape or to attack them. That's why he said he added the extra part(Compulsion): since she's not his wife/friend, he couldn't just trust her blindly and hope she won't try to escape, so he used Compulsion to make sure she won't do something stupid.

The only other safe way to deal with them was to kill them after they were captured and no longer a thread(just as their orders were to deal with the AM), which the AM couldn't do because Rand told them not to, and they are good guys, all things considered.

I guess they could have bypassed the bonding if they had a Oath Rod, but alas, no such luck.

 

Yeah but IIRC there is nothing in the books to say that the compulsion was not in the original bond. Being well trained husbands in Randland, would they even try to order their wives around? I don't recall any experimenting or even time to get compulsion in there if it was added later. If that was indeed the case, I think RJ would have slipped some foreshadowing or explanation in there at some stage.

 

Edited to add: maybe they accidentally found out about the compulsion when telling their wives not to worry when they are leaving on mission and feeling serenity replace angst in the bond.

 

 

Well, there is. Sort off.

“Women are beyond any belief,” Gaul muttered.

 

Perrin opened his mouth to defend Faile before he realized it must be Bain and Chiad the man was glaring at. To cover, he said, “Do you have a wife, Grady?”

 

“Sora,” Grady answered absently, his attention still on the surrounding trees. Perrin would have wagered he held the Power now, for sure. Anyone could see a long way in this, compared to any woods back home, but someone could still sneak up on you. “She’s missing me,” Grady went on, almost to himself. “You learn to recognize that one right off. I wish I knew why her knee hurts, though.”

 

“Her knee hurts,” Perrin said flatly. “Right this minute, it hurts.”

 

Grady seemed to realize he was staring, and Gaul was too. He blinked, but went right back to his study. “Forgive me, Lord Perrin. I need to keep a watch.” For a long moment he said nothing, then began slowly, “It’s something a fellow named Canler worked out. The M’Hael doesn’t like us trying to figure out things on our own, but once it was done . . . ” His slight grimace said perhaps Taim had not been all that easy about it even then. “We think maybe it’s something like the bond between Warders and Aes Sedai. Maybe one in three of us is married; anyway, that’s how many wives stayed instead of running off when they learned what their husbands were. This way, when you’re apart from her, you know she’s all right, and she knows you are. A man likes to know his wife’s safe.”

 

You see, this is not the same bond the AS used for Warders, and that has a little Compulsion in it.

This bond the AM create was a very simple one, and they only worked on being able to maintain a connection that will make them know how the other feels like.

They did it so they could know the ones they love are OK. I don't see why they should just add some extra Compulsion in the mix. They are not AS.

This was not a warder bond, it was a 'love bond'.

When the AS tried to kill them, they just added some Compulsion to keep them from doing something they'll both regret, so the that bond is a 'tough love bond', or a 'love bond 2.0 for AS operating systems'. Easy as pi.