The Dragon that turned to the Shadow.

[Suttree]

Don't have one with me but I remember reading a early edition of TEoTW. The thing that caught me, that really captured my imagination and made me fall in love with the whole series was the breif opening paragraths that explained the WoT and the dark one and it said (I think haven't read it in years) that in the ages the dark one troubles men the DRAGON is there to oppose him.(Not the exact words but the gist) Regarding the above quotes by RJ, with the greatest respect I think RJ himself may have not been clear in his own mind some of the roles of his creations, which is understandable given how long he was writting the series, its not inconcevable that over those plots and charictorsb changed. I think it has to be reconized given the many Quotes and parts in the books that appear to be at odds.

What are you getting at? So far as I can tell, RJ didn't contradict himself in any way on this one.

 

Maybe he is referring to the

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

&

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior Turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

To clarify I believe that the "dragon soul" is always the CoL but you can see how that would cause some confusion.

[Terez]

Don't have one with me but I remember reading a early edition of TEoTW. The thing that caught me, that really captured my imagination and made me fall in love with the whole series was the breif opening paragraths that explained the WoT and the dark one and it said (I think haven't read it in years) that in the ages the dark one troubles men the DRAGON is there to oppose him.(Not the exact words but the gist) Regarding the above quotes by RJ, with the greatest respect I think RJ himself may have not been clear in his own mind some of the roles of his creations, which is understandable given how long he was writting the series, its not inconcevable that over those plots and charictorsb changed. I think it has to be reconized given the many Quotes and parts in the books that appear to be at odds.

What are you getting at? So far as I can tell, RJ didn't contradict himself in any way on this one.

 

Maybe he is referring to the

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

&

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior Turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

To clarify I believe that the "dragon soul" is always the CoL but you can see how that would cause some confusion.

Oh yeah, that quote. I don't see it as a contradiction because RJ didn't say that Ishamael lied. He just challenged the assumption that Ishamael can be relied upon. RJ was very good at giving Aes Sedai answers. (Which is not to say that he never makes mistakes...I just think it most likely that he knew from the beginning that Ishamael was telling the truth.) In this case, he was trying to avoid the question - what happens if Rand turns to the Shadow? Who saves the day then? I think that it probably has to happen at least once a Turning, and that it can happen in several different ways. RJ has also said that there are several points at which the Shadow has a chance to win, and obviously Dragonmount was one of those points. According to what Moiraine saw in Rhuidean, Lanfear was another one of those points. Since Rand is probably still linked with Moridin, I think there will be another one of those points very early in AMOL, and that Rand will have another choice or two before he dies. (The link being the reason why that death is necessary.)

 

So, the question 'who was the champion' was an uncomfortable one. He could hardly say RAFO without leading readers to believe that Rand was going to somehow be turned to the Shadow before the end. And so he hedged. He knew that he'd answered the basic question already for other people, and he knew this stuff was available online.

[damandred]

Thoses are the quotes I had in mind. Plus the time ishy tried to kill rand but is helping as moridin. The whole relationship between rand and ishy confuses me. Ishy says to rand they had battled thousands of times does he mean there two souls (ishy/soul v rand/soul) or rand and the DO (who ishy was posing as). Their is a dark prophercy naming ishy "shadow souled" just a thought as well a the very beginning of the series ishy says to LTT the same thing about there eternal war. Is ishy the DO s champion(champion of the shadow) the same way rand is for the light?

[spoke]

It seems that you are all forgetting about the Shah'rah game that Moridin was playing. When Masters play the Fisher King changed several times over the course of the game. So there is nothing to say that Rand (or at least his soul) hasn't changed sides before. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rand go Dark again (13x13), before being brought back to the light.

[Luckers]

I've removed the fight about spelling and punctuation. Please note that attacking someones spelling, punctuation or grammar constitutes a personal attack and is not permitted on the board.

 

Additionally, if anyone on any side of this attempts to resume the fight, they'll get a seven day ban. Beyond that, check your inboxes.

 

Now, back on topic please.

[damandred]

Is ishy the champion of the shadow,same as rands champion of the light

[Suttree]

Is ishy the champion of the shadow,same as rands champion of the light

 

Ishy seems to think so...

[Luckers]

I wonder to what extent Ishamael deludes himself. For instance did he assume the name Ba'alzammon, or was that always a Trolloc name for him, not the Dark One, and that the Light got it mixed up? If its the latter, the Dark One seems content for Ishamael to take far greater liberties than any of the others--but the former speaks more to the idea of Ishy being the Champion of the Shadow.

[Terez]

It's hard to know for sure, but all the evidence suggests that the Dark One encourages him. I doubt he actually remembers his past lives, for example...the prologue of TPOD suggests that he does not. That means that everything he knows, he learns from the Dark One...and if he really is woven together with Rand like Brandon says, then the Dark One probably knows him quite well, and by all appearances is quite fond of him. As strange as that seems.

[Finnssss22]

It's hard to know for sure, but all the evidence suggests that the Dark One encourages him. I doubt he actually remembers his past lives, for example...the prologue of TPOD suggests that he does not. That means that everything he knows, he learns from the Dark One...and if he really is woven together with Rand like Brandon says, then the Dark One probably knows him quite well, and by all appearances is quite fond of him. As strange as that seems.

 

 

Or dreams about perhaps and the DO's "fondness" for him may be easily explained by him being the only Chosen, that not only realise the DO winning means the end of existence, but also shares in that goal.

In a way, he might just be one of the only truly unselfish followers the DO has.

[Terez]

It's not any lack of explanation that makes it strange. Just the idea of the Dark One being fond of anyone, for any reason.

[Sharaman]

"Heart of the Dark" sounds like a descriptive name - "Hand of the Dark" is similar, though they're different languages.

Most likely the Lightsiders got it mixed up and assumed it meant the GLoD because there's nobody there who's fluent in trolloc.

Why wouldn't the GLoD be fond of Moridin for a given and somewhat weird value of fond?

After all, Moridin is fond of rats - for a given and somewhat pyromaniac value of fond.

[rcfleming4]

Perhaps he's just the Dark One's favorite tool. Everyone else is a hammer, he's the swiss army knife.

[OptimusPrime]

Is ishy the champion of the shadow,same as rands champion of the light

 

Ishy seems to think so...

 

It doesnt feel the same though. Rand is the official Champion, almost a worldbuilding element in his own right, but the position of Nae'blis seems to be a fickle thing. If Moridin died they could just pick another Champion. Rand was going to be the Champion no matter what, whereas Elan Morin I think wasnt "born" to do it.

[damandred]

Elan morin wasn't born to serve the shadow but LTT wasn't born to be the dragon. At least both of them couldn't have forseen the DO breaking free,they didn't even know of the DO exsisted. Put the pattern had to know it was time for world war that's why LTT was born to be CoTL, why not elan morin born to be CoTS

[damandred]

Plus ishy seems favored by the DO almost blindly. He is defeated by rand soundly in the first two books and killed by him in the third. He gets a new body with the position of Nae'Blis thrown in for good measure. I thought the DO punished failiure.

[Sharaman]

The GLoD's definition of failure may not be the same as mine or yours. Maybe the GLoD was working things up to Rand accessing TP and balefiring the Borderlanders.

[damandred]

If so why did ishy try to balefire rand in the stone.

[Mulk]

I always chalked that up to survival instinct, damandred. Or I suppose it could have been kill him after failing to woo him to the dark side was the original strat, followed by the whole Lord of Chaos thing once that failed. I dunno. RJ said the shadow could win at many points along the way, if I'm remembering rightly.

[damandred]

I have to disagree with you there quiet. After sweeping aside morry, ishy says something like die lews therin, die rand al'thor so I put it down to a straight up assassination atempt. But I think that just enforces my first point about ishy being the dark ones eternal champion. He fails even then to kill randa(and he had the drop on him) and gets himself killed but still gets a new body and made Nae'Blis.

[Hadilmir]

I've always suspected Elan meant to lose to Rand in the Stone. At that time he knew Rand was the Dragon Reborn, but Rand had not accepted it yet. Based on his Sha'rah musings, Elan seems to always have a specific goal, one which extends far beyond what is apparent. Could his goal not have been to force Rand into taking Callandor and naming himself Dragon Reborn since Be'lal failed? It makes sense, you cannot convert a Dragon Reborn if there isn't one. I'm gonna call Elan's bluff and say the entire Heart of the Stone scene was a show.

[damandred]

Seems a pretty drastic way to force rand into taking callandor seen as though he had already gotten to the heart of the stone. Be'lal had already been delt with, plus the whole point of rand going there was to end his doubts "one way or another). After all that I couldn't see rand just turning away.

[Hadilmir]

Seems a pretty drastic way to force rand into taking callandor seen as though he had already gotten to the heart of the stone. Be'lal had already been delt with, plus the whole point of rand going there was to end his doubts "one way or another). After all that I couldn't see rand just turning away.

 

I'll admit it is drastic, but then again Elan always had a thing for a little flare. Read the chapter as Ishmael attempting to kill Rand and then read it again as Ishmael attempting to force Rand into thinking himself the all-powerful Dragon Reborn. Both seem equally plausible, but I suspect the latter, mostly due to the Ishmael's flight into T'A'R. Note he did not use balefire in the real world, but in the one place where he could be certain his actions would not kill Rand if he did not want them to. The rest of it reeks of a forced cat-and-mouse game if you read it that way. I'm not saying I have to be right, but it would certainly fit Elan Tedronai better.

[damandred]

Just took your advice hadilmir. I can see how it looks, ishy escaping by gateway just after rand takes callandor(he has know way of knowing rand can follow.)But I don't understand why he would be certain balefiring rand in TAR wouldn't kill him I'm sure it would just like rand killed Rahvin in FoH.

[Hadilmir]

Just took your advice hadilmir. I can see how it looks, ishy escaping by gateway just after rand takes callandor(he has know way of knowing rand can follow.)But I don't understand why he would be certain balefiring rand in TAR wouldn't kill him I'm sure it would just like rand killed Rahvin in FoH.

 

Recognize the scene from a more recent book? Say Towers of Midnight perhaps? For an even bigger hint, "Balefire is just a weave" and Perrin has already shown us it is just as easy to manipulate with thought as anything else.

 

*Glad you actually did as I suggested, that was pretty cool of you cause no one ever seems to do it