The Dragon that turned to the Shadow.

[damandred]

Yeah Perrin did stop the weave in ToM but he had become a master of TAR, even Egwene was stunned. There is no way to believe rand or even ishy knew it was possable to do that in TAR. So it has to be an atempt to kill rand. As to taking your advice, just trying to get a different perspective. Sorry it didn't work though ha.

[Hadilmir]

Yeah Perrin did stop the weave in ToM but he had become a master of TAR, even Egwene was stunned. There is no way to believe rand or even ishy knew it was possable to do that in TAR. So it has to be an atempt to kill rand. As to taking your advice, just trying to get a different perspective. Sorry it didn't work though ha.

Well, atleast you tried lol

 

(I'm suggesting Ishmael knew weaves held no real power in T'A'R, of course Rand wouldn't)

[damandred]

But weaves do, rands killing rahvin there prove that. Its just a talented enough TA'R master can make them redundant.

[Hadilmir]

But weaves do, rands killing rahvin there prove that. Its just a talented enough TA'R master can make them redundant.

 

I'm not sure how to be more clear. Hmm...

 

Will-

Ishmael was talented enough in T'A'R to make his weaves not actually harmful to Rand.

-be sufficient?

[damandred]

But it was harmfull the deflected streams of balefire singed rands coat and took out the columns behind him. Still got the book with me.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

In one of the books it is mentioned that a Dragon has in a past Age turned to the Shadow. My question is, if that happened, how did the forces of Light win?

 

I can only assume that it was the primary Dragon (like Lews Therin was), NOT the Dragon Reborn (which Rand is). If the primary Dragon is converted, then IMO it is still possible for the light to win. But if the Dragon Reborn is converted, then it is not possible, for far too much depends on the prophecies surrounding him. Remember, it is only the Dragon Reborn that has prophecies about him, not the primary Dragon.

 

What do you guys think?

 

This is an interesting question but I think it can be either one. IMO, when the next version of LTT comes, Rand will seem to be THAT guys version of LTT. The terms Dragon and Dragon Reborn seem unique to this turning, and I say that because Lews Therins personal title, not the official Champion of the Light name.

 

Same soul, different people. Remember, neither the Champion of the Light, the DarkOne or even Channeling is around in every age. Just like Wolfbrothers, Sniffers or Min's type of viewing are not in every age either.

 

Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one.

 

 

 

 

 

I definitely think the Light can win even if the Dragon Reborn was properly turned, I think the Horn of Valere is able to defeat a Dark Dragon because RJ said that Horn vs Dragon makes a rift in the Pattern. That sounds like its on the right sort of scale to unmake a Ta'veren. So maybe that rift in the Pattern would be what stops a Dark Dragon from still having control over the Pattern instead of having time and events warp around him to keep him alive.

 

From all the quotes I have found, the implication is that turning the CotL only guarantee's that the DO can't lose/Light can not win.

This one in particular. (Notice he doesn't say usually results in a draw, he says does result a draw.)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Exactly, this is what made me say simply turning a CotL isnt enough. I reckon the CotLs frame of mind is always the key, so his reasons for turning Dark would mean everything with regard to the Light drawing or losing.

 

I think there will be plenty of ways to weaken the Pattern enough for the Dark One to destroy it and break free, but the best one seems to be to get the CotL to WANT the Pattern to break. Assuming every major incarnation gets what Rand has with bending the Pattern to their will, that by itself seems greater than any channeling ability. If Demandred had been told to walk around balefiring loads of significant people for example, all the Pattern would need to do is throw a Ta'veren his way. But Rands mentality governs his Ta'veren spin on effects in TGS, it seems to pretty much assault the Pattern directly in the times when he went all cold and "yea I dont give a crap anymore."

 

In short, having people chip away at the Patterns strength is too easily countered. You need to hack the system, get bad Ta'verenism. CotL has that as strong as it gets, so if you can get that guy to turn Dark under the right conditions, you have the only type of scenario in which the Shadow actually has any shred of a chance to win.

 

IMO, the Dark One needs a very rare type of Dragon Nae'blis. If Lanfear was male and happened to be a turned CotL, she wouldnt be the right type, for example, because if she had the Pattern bending will thing, that stuff goes off whats going on in your head, and she DEFINITELY didnt want the Dark One to break free. Or at least, it wasnt the sort of thing she would exert her will on the Pattern to get. So she would make a bad candidate if she was the same person we know but in that scenario.

 

Moridin though, his entire being is devoted to destroying it all. He actually WANTS it. Thats the key. If he had been a turned CotL and was the same person we know now, he could destroy it himself IMO, if he learned what Rand did in TGS. The Shadow could actually win outright with that.

 

Seeing how far Rand can be pushed Id say he is definitely the right kind of Dragon. TGS was a real eye opener IMO, because in VoG he came very close to WANTING the Pattern to die. Thats what the Dark One needs IMO, thats why its so important for the Shadow that he lives. Now I know he has some pretty hefty new defenses (his newfound faith being the main one) but theres still some hope for the Shadow. Theres four weapons aimed right at Rands mentality already, them Warder bonds could potentially send him crazy again I think. Especially if more than one broke at the same time, because then he'd know for sure one of the harem would be dead.

 

These 2 posts are excellent and I think really sum up the OT. Well thought out guys/gals.

[Jon Paul]

It is my opinion that the Dragon has never fallen to the Shadow. When I say the Dragon, I mean specifically his first incarnation. However, when the Dragon has failed, I believe it has always been his reincarnation as the Dragon Reborn. And this is where the ta'veren of Mat and Perrin (not their souls specifically, but possibly). They, in some manner, act as a support mechanism for the Dragon Reborn. Notice how it's clearly evident that if one of them falls, it's all pretty much done. Rand Sedai will fail without them.

 

I don't know how it works and I may be wrong, but I think that's how it works.

[FarShainMael]

This 'support mechanism' is what makes me think that when Perrin in TAR encountered Rand's TAR-reflection on DM, that was the second part of Min's Viewing:

 

"Twice {Perrin}'s going to have to be there, or you {Rand}... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

[Andhaira]

Guys, Ishamel was insane in the first three books from channeling the True Power for centuries. That, and the fact that he had always been slightly unhinged from the get go. Or so the other Forsaken say. He thought he was the dark one, and tried to get rand on his side. When he failed, he tried to kill rand. However, rand managed to scrape by, probably because of being taveren, and probably also because ishamel had had no real opposition in centuries and was taken aback when someone fought back. Though I will admit it is not good plotting on RJ's part, having such a powerful bad guy get defeated by an untried and untested hero just because he is the hero. Rand should have had help in taking down Ishamel, say maybe some Aiel Wise Ones entering the dream world and assissting him.

 

Ishamel had the oppertunity to kill Lews Therin as well, as we can see in the prologue to Eye of the World. Ishamel could easily have killed Lews Therin, but he let him commit suicide. Apparently he knew at that time of the dragons rebirth, and wanted another crack at turning him to the shadow. But again, not the best of plotting, for if the Dragon had refused him once in the Age of Legends, what made Ishamel think the reborn version would be any different?

[MasterAblar]

Guys, Ishamel was insane in the first three books from channeling the True Power for centuries. That, and the fact that he had always been slightly unhinged from the get go. Or so the other Forsaken say. He thought he was the dark one, and tried to get rand on his side. When he failed, he tried to kill rand. However, rand managed to scrape by, probably because of being taveren, and probably also because ishamel had had no real opposition in centuries and was taken aback when someone fought back. Though I will admit it is not good plotting on RJ's part, having such a powerful bad guy get defeated by an untried and untested hero just because he is the hero. Rand should have had help in taking down Ishamel, say maybe some Aiel Wise Ones entering the dream world and assissting him.

 

Ishamel had the oppertunity to kill Lews Therin as well, as we can see in the prologue to Eye of the World. Ishamel could easily have killed Lews Therin, but he let him commit suicide. Apparently he knew at that time of the dragons rebirth, and wanted another crack at turning him to the shadow. But again, not the best of plotting, for if the Dragon had refused him once in the Age of Legends, what made Ishamel think the reborn version would be any different?

 

He probably would have prefered to capture Rand when he was younger, before he became a real threat, so he could corrupt him.

[RAbbott85]

Now, I haven't read all of the theories/posts out there, but there is a line (can't recall place/time) from one of the Forsaken POV (I think Graendal) where she mentions that Demandred could have been the Dragon. This makes me wonder, what made Lews Therin the Dragon? If Demandred could have feasibly been the Dragon, then it is not outside of the realm of possibility to have a bad guy Dragon. Maybe the 'Dragon' isn't ALWAYS the same soul?

[MasterAblar]

Now, I haven't read all of the theories/posts out there, but there is a line (can't recall place/time) from one of the Forsaken POV (I think Graendal) where she mentions that Demandred could have been the Dragon. This makes me wonder, what made Lews Therin the Dragon? If Demandred could have feasibly been the Dragon, then it is not outside of the realm of possibility to have a bad guy Dragon. Maybe the 'Dragon' isn't ALWAYS the same soul?

 

The Dragon was the title given to LTT. It could have been given to Demandred as well, but LTT was greater than him. It was given by the people of the AoL, which is why Demandred could have been the Dragon.

[Andhaira]

But why is the title of Dragon given to the strongest channeler? I mean, all you have to do to get the title is be born with the potential of being the strongest channeler of that age. It doesn't seem to take capability in other arena's into account at all.

[RAbbott85]

But why was the title given? Were there prophecies involved? Was it simply a strength thing (if so, Ishy should have been the runner up)? It's something that has always made me wonder.

[MasterAblar]

I don't think there were prophecies involved. And it wasn't just a strength thing. It was given to him durig the War of Shadow, because he was quite simply the greatest, most honored, and most respected man of the age, and was the leader of the forces of the Light. If Demandred had been named leader instead than perhaps he would have been named Dragon. Now, why they called him "the Dragon" I'm don't know, but it was a title made up in the Aol.

[RAbbott85]

Has that been discussed by the 'Creator' or just conjecture?

[FarShainMael]

I don't think there were prophecies involved. And it wasn't just a strength thing. It was given to him durig the War of Shadow, because he was quite simply the greatest, most honored, and most respected man of the age, and was the leader of the forces of the Light. If Demandred had been named leader instead than perhaps he would have been named Dragon. Now, why they called him "the Dragon" I'm don't know, but it was a title made up in the Aol.

 

I don't think that title had anything at all to do with respect..

 

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

 

Later on, however, they seemed to change their minds, a bit (perhaps out of desperation!):

 

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

[RAbbott85]

I don't think LTT was called the Dragon because he brought the Shadow and broke the world. In TSR, in Rhuidean, Rand sees the ancient Aiel referring to the Dragon with respect during the War of Power.

 

My point is that if the Dragon could have been Demandred - if there were no prophetic criterion - then whether or not the Dragon turns evil is a flip of a coin.

[MasterAblar]

I don't think there were prophecies involved. And it wasn't just a strength thing. It was given to him durig the War of Shadow, because he was quite simply the greatest, most honored, and most respected man of the age, and was the leader of the forces of the Light. If Demandred had been named leader instead than perhaps he would have been named Dragon. Now, why they called him "the Dragon" I'm don't know, but it was a title made up in the Aol.

 

I don't think that title had anything at all to do with respect..

 

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

 

Later on, however, they seemed to change their minds, a bit (perhaps out of desperation!):

 

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

LTT was refered to as the Dragon before the breaking though, not after, so they coudln't have named him Dragon because he, indirectly, caused the breaking. The title just gained notoriety after that.

[MasterAblar]

I don't think LTT was called the Dragon because he brought the Shadow and broke the world. In TSR, in Rhuidean, Rand sees the ancient Aiel referring to the Dragon with respect during the War of Power.

 

My point is that if the Dragon could have been Demandred - if there were no prophetic criterion - then whether or not the Dragon turns evil is a flip of a coin.

 

If Demandred had been named Dragon, he might not have turned to the Shadow. Because then he would have been greater then LTT and would have had no reason to hate him as deeply as he did, which is the whole reason for which Demandred turned to the Shadow.

[damandred]

I think whoever was named dragon was irrelevant, LTT was always going to take the lead in fighting the shadow. As he had done before and will do again.

[Hadilmir]

Guys, Ishamel was insane in the first three books from channeling the True Power for centuries. That, and the fact that he had always been slightly unhinged from the get go. Or so the other Forsaken say. He thought he was the dark one, and tried to get rand on his side. When he failed, he tried to kill rand. However, rand managed to scrape by, probably because of being taveren, and probably also because ishamel had had no real opposition in centuries and was taken aback when someone fought back. Though I will admit it is not good plotting on RJ's part, having such a powerful bad guy get defeated by an untried and untested hero just because he is the hero. Rand should have had help in taking down Ishamel, say maybe some Aiel Wise Ones entering the dream world and assissting him.

 

Ishamel had the oppertunity to kill Lews Therin as well, as we can see in the prologue to Eye of the World. Ishamel could easily have killed Lews Therin, but he let him commit suicide. Apparently he knew at that time of the dragons rebirth, and wanted another crack at turning him to the shadow. But again, not the best of plotting, for if the Dragon had refused him once in the Age of Legends, what made Ishamel think the reborn version would be any different?

You say that as if it were a proven fact. It is not, and therefore I disagree. I do not believe mere plot armor is the reason for Rand's victory. It is the exact same in tGS, Semirhage could have had Rand, but that was not Moridin/DO's goal. Ishmael would not have killed Rand while he was still capable of being drawn into the Shadow.

[Suttree]

I don't think LTT was called the Dragon because he brought the Shadow and broke the world. In TSR, in Rhuidean, Rand sees the ancient Aiel referring to the Dragon with respect during the War of Power.

 

My point is that if the Dragon could have been Demandred - if there were no prophetic criterion - then whether or not the Dragon turns evil is a flip of a coin.

 

If Demandred had been named Dragon it still doesn't change the fact that the LTT/Rand soul is the CoL. Demandred could have gained the political title but he still wouldn't have been the lights champion that the pattern spins out.

[FarShainMael]

LTT was refered to as the Dragon before the breaking though, not after, so they coudln't have named him Dragon because he, indirectly, caused the breaking. The title just gained notoriety after that.

 

Not disagreeing necessarily, but I'd be interested to see a source for that.

[damandred]

I don't think LTT was called the Dragon because he brought the Shadow and broke the world. In TSR, in Rhuidean, Rand sees the ancient Aiel referring to the Dragon with respect during the War of Power.

 

My point is that if the Dragon could have been Demandred - if there were no prophetic criterion - then whether or not the Dragon turns evil is a flip of a coin.

 

If Demandred had been named Dragon it still doesn't change the fact that the LTT/Rand soul is the CoL. Demandred could have gained the political title but he still wouldn't have been the lights champion that the pattern spins out.

 

My point exacly up thread