Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
TreeJoe

Lifetime reader of Jordan - Just started A song of ice and fire series

Recommended Posts

One of my gripes with the series is that you already have a negative feeling towards the Targaryans because of the Mad King in book one. Then this is backed up with not so nice stories of Rhaegar(although an excellent warrior), and then of course Viserys. But I think some of them have to be given a chance. Dany seems to be quite different in many ways. And then you have Aemon Targaryan, the Maester on the Wall, who is obviously a good guy. And then there's.....you'll have to read and see.

 

I think that's a good thing. The reports about the Mad King and our encounters with Viserys make the Targaryens out to be 'bad guys'. But Daenerys is clearly one of the most moral people in the entire series, and we gradually learn more and more about Rhaegar that suggests the early negative stories may be propaganda and he was actually a good guy, just a bit obsessed and not thinking through the consequences of his actions. This makes the situation more interesting. The Targaryens are neither good nor bad, they're just people (and note that even Viserys has his good points and even Daenerys has done things that are ruthless and violent). The prequels, where we meet several more Targaryens, continue to show them to be a mix individuals.

 

The same with the Lannisters. They are presented as antagonists but we are clearly meant to sympathise with Tyrion and Jaime is shown in a more complex light later on. Some fans now even argue that the Lannisters are their favourite house because they are actually a reasonable house let down by one bad egg (Cersei) and one rather ruthless one (Tywin), but otherwise are not necessarily any worse than the Starks.

 

I didnt even think about the fact that Rhaegars "bad" stories might be propoganda. In book one(this is NOT in the HBO SERIES: and they leave out one of my favorite parts of this book) Ned dreams of the "Tower of Joy" scene. Not much is revealed, but we know that Ned and 6 others face off against Aurthur Dayne(Possible one of the best swordsmen) and two others of possible equal kill. So its 7 vs 3. The outcome isnt revealed, but Rhaegar has Neds kipdnapped sister(Lleona or something aint it) in the tower. So just based on a SUPPOSED rape of "Lleana" I just assumed he was a bad man. Maybe the scene isnt described correctly sinse its so vague. I guess its even conceivable that the Mad King wasnt mad, and all the horrors he supposedly commited was just Throne Plotting Schemes. I havent finished the series yet so I dont know if they ever go back to any of these characters, but Id assume they would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I envy you your first reading of ASOI&F so much...To me, it's on par with WoT. Probably is my second favorite fantasy series, after WoT. I just recently read A Dance with Dragons, after waiting for it for about 6 years...not gonna say anything about it, except holy frakkin' epicness.

 

Red, you can keep the Kingslayer. I'll take Jon Snow anyday^_^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I didnt even think about the fact that Rhaegars "bad" stories might be propoganda. In book one(this is NOT in the HBO SERIES: and they leave out one of my favorite parts of this book) Ned dreams of the "Tower of Joy" scene. Not much is revealed, but we know that Ned and 6 others face off against Aurthur Dayne(Possible one of the best swordsmen) and two others of possible equal kill. So its 7 vs 3. The outcome isnt revealed, but Rhaegar has Neds kipdnapped sister(Lleona or something aint it) in the tower. So just based on a SUPPOSED rape of "Lleana" I just assumed he was a bad man. Maybe the scene isnt described correctly sinse its so vague. I guess its even conceivable that the Mad King wasnt mad, and all the horrors he supposedly commited was just Throne Plotting Schemes. I havent finished the series yet so I dont know if they ever go back to any of these characters, but Id assume they would.

 

No, the Mad King was bonkers, cruel and evil as can be :) But even in Book 1 we see people saying good things about Rhaegar. Most notably, there is a moment (quite early on, I recall) where Eddard has a moment of realisation where he compares Robert's visits to brothels and wonders if Rhaegar would have done the same thing as king and realised he wouldn't. For Eddard to think, even momentarily, that Rhaegar would have been a better king than his best friend Robert is a clue that we're not being told the whole story about that situation. And it's worth noting that the most constant invective and criticisms come from Robert, who is still furious with rage about the situation and clearly biased against Rhaegar.

 

Not to say that Rhaegar was a really nice guy and totally cool and so on, but we're clearly not getting the whole story in Book 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If I continue on beyond book 2, it won't be because I'm eating up every page. It'll be because I just want to know the twists of Tyrion and Jon Snow.

 

Yeah, if you like Jon and Tyrion, then book two is good. Without spoiling anything, the book dedicates itself to Tyrion's story as the main character for a good while. I think Tyrions storyline in Kings Landing is one of the coolest.

 

Jons story just keeps evolving in each book, although I havent read the last book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I envy you your first reading of ASOI&F so much...To me, it's on par with WoT. Probably is my second favorite fantasy series, after WoT. I just recently read A Dance with Dragons, after waiting for it for about 6 years...not gonna say anything about it, except holy frakkin' epicness.

 

 

Ive only read up thru book 4. I havent bought Dance With Dragons yet cuz its only out in Hardback and im not paying 35 bucks for it.

Anyway, book 4 seemed to just be setting up book 5, so I was left with the wtf feeling. So I was actually thinking that book 5 would be the best one so far, just based on where ALL the storylines have stopped. The only way forward for all of them would FINALLY be to some action, hopefully.

 

And on a side note: In the HBO series is Dany not F'N smoking hot? Hell even when shes munching down on that heart, I'd open mouth kiss her. They did a good job casting her. I STILL think about the scene from the series where shes slipping into that bathe.....meow....(looks around to make sure wife isnt behind reading over his shoulder)

 

:)

:)

:0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL, yeah, the HBO series did an epic job of teh casting.

 

Also, the 5th book, while epicly awesome, does a lot of setup for #6. That's just how the series is. Can hardly wait for the The Winds of Winter, really hope it doesn't take another 6 years!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Red, you can keep the Kingslayer. I'll take Jon Snow anyday^_^

 

Agreed. Hate Jamie with a passion. If I could turn myself into a book character, I would just to kill him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The same with the Lannisters. They are presented as antagonists but we are clearly meant to sympathise with Tyrion and Jaime is shown in a more complex light later on. Some fans now even argue that the Lannisters are their favourite house because they are actually a reasonable house let down by one bad egg (Cersei) and one rather ruthless one (Tywin), but otherwise are not necessarily any worse than the Starks.

 

You mean, aside from the Starks not throwing small children out of windows, with the intent of killing them? It was this bit which first showed how much of an evil scumbag Jaime is, and he hasn't done anything I've seen so far to redeem himself. I didn't find his actions during the confrontation with Ned outside the brothel all that great. His talk in the dungeon with Catelyn in ACOK was total arrogance on his part. And really, it's not like anyone who would try murdering a child can redeem himself in the first place.

Edited by Basel Gill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I envy you your first reading of ASOI&F so much...To me, it's on par with WoT. Probably is my second favorite fantasy series, after WoT. I just recently read A Dance with Dragons, after waiting for it for about 6 years...not gonna say anything about it, except holy frakkin' epicness.

 

Red, you can keep the Kingslayer. I'll take Jon Snow anyday^_^

 

 

deal, so long as we can share custody of Ghost, cuase he's the only thing abotu Jon i like :laugh:

 

 

 

You mean, aside from the Starks not throwing small children out of windows, with the intent of killing them? It was this bit which first showed how much of an evil scumbag Jaime is, and he hasn't done anything I've seen so far to redeem himself. I didn't find his actions during the confronatation with Ned outside the brothel all that great. His talk in the dungeon with Catelyn in ACOK was total arrogance on his part. And really, it's not like anyone who would try murdering a child can redeem himself in the first place.

 

he redeems himself, once you understand why he did the things he did. i'm not going to defend what he did to Bran, but i can undertand why he saw that as the only solution and in his defense he didn't mean for bran to survive and become a cripple, Jamie may be a lovely arrogant hottie (and rightly earned considering his skill with a sword) but he's not cruel (unlike some other characters *cough* the Mountain *cough* Joffery *cough*

 

 

and if i recall, his confrontation with Ned had to deal with Neds wife KIDNAPPING the imp and taking him to the Errie to be tried for death. Jamie was well within his right to show the family that kidnapped his brother that the Lannisters aren't a family to mess with and will pay their debts.

 

in Book 3, you learn Jamie's side of the story, and judging from your post, you've yet to read those parts; if i were you, i'd honestly save crucifying Jamie in your mind until you get to book 4 and seen the way his character grows. you're goign to be surprised, pleasantly so.

 

 

 

btw, anyone wants to argue against jamie and has read the first 4 books is more than welcome to do so in another thread. we don't want to spoil it for the new readers :happy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with above poster to an extent. I think Jaime is redeeming, but not redeemed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I envy you your first reading of ASOI&F so much...To me, it's on par with WoT. Probably is my second favorite fantasy series, after WoT. I just recently read A Dance with Dragons, after waiting for it for about 6 years...not gonna say anything about it, except holy frakkin' epicness.

Ive only read up thru book 4. I havent bought Dance With Dragons yet cuz its only out in Hardback and im not paying 35 bucks for it.

Anyway, book 4 seemed to just be setting up book 5, so I was left with the wtf feeling. So I was actually thinking that book 5 would be the best one so far, just based on where ALL the storylines have stopped. The only way forward for all of them would FINALLY be to some action, hopefully.

Book 4 isn't setting up book 5. Most of book 5 deals with the storylines that AFFC didn't focus on - Dany and Tyrion, for example.

 

 

You mean, aside from the Starks not throwing small children out of windows, with the intent of killing them? It was this bit which first showed how much of an evil scumbag Jaime is, and he hasn't done anything I've seen so far to redeem himself. I didn't find his actions during the confronatation with Ned outside the brothel all that great. His talk in the dungeon with Catelyn in ACOK was total arrogance on his part. And really, it's not like anyone who would try murdering a child can redeem himself in the first place.

 

he redeems himself, once you understand why he did the things he did. i'm not going to defend what he did to Bran, but i can undertand why he saw that as the only solution and in his defense he didn't mean for bran to survive and become a cripple, Jamie may be a lovely arrogant hottie (and rightly earned considering his skill with a sword) but he's not cruel (unlike some other characters *cough* the Mountain *cough* Joffery *cough*

Saying Jaime didn't mean for Bran to survive is not much of a defence when he is being condemned for trying to kill him in the first place. Jaime's perspective can change your opinion on some of the things he's done, but not trying to murder a child to conceal his affair.

 

and if i recall, his confrontation with Ned had to deal with Neds wife KIDNAPPING the imp and taking him to the Errie to be tried for death. Jamie was well within his right to show the family that kidnapped his brother that the Lannisters aren't a family to mess with and will pay their debts.
Cat intended to give Tyrion a fair trial for the murder attempt he was accused of. Jaime didn't give Ned a fair trial. He was not within his rights. Ned was the Hand of the King, and he claimed Cat was acting on his orders. If a policeman arrested my brother, I would not be considered within my rights to burn down his house in retaliation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The same with the Lannisters. They are presented as antagonists but we are clearly meant to sympathise with Tyrion and Jaime is shown in a more complex light later on. Some fans now even argue that the Lannisters are their favourite house because they are actually a reasonable house let down by one bad egg (Cersei) and one rather ruthless one (Tywin), but otherwise are not necessarily any worse than the Starks.

 

You mean, aside from the Starks not throwing small children out of windows, with the intent of killing them? It was this bit which first showed how much of an evil scumbag Jaime is, and he hasn't done anything I've seen so far to redeem himself. I didn't find his actions during the confrontation with Ned outside the brothel all that great. His talk in the dungeon with Catelyn in ACOK was total arrogance on his part. And really, it's not like anyone who would try murdering a child can redeem himself in the first place.

 

Wouldn't say redemption but as Wert mentioned Jaime has been shown to be far more complex than originally portrayed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Jaime presents a reason for doing what he did which was coldly logical and calculating, but not inherently evil itself:

 

 

Jaime believes - correctly as everyone, even Ned, agrees - that if Robert learns the truth from Bran, he will kill Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella and Joffrey. This will trigger a civil war as Tywin would take vengeance. The numbers dead would be in the thousands. Jaime doesn't give much of a toss about the larger loss of life, but he does believe that killing one child is worth it to preserve the lives of three other children (plus Jaime and Cersei themselves).

 

 

It's a hallmark of GRRM's writing that every character has a reason for doing what they do. In Jaime's case an argument could be made for it making sense or for it being self-serving cowardice (though Jaime doesn't exactly lack for courage in other scenes). Maybe it's both. That moral complexity, that in some cases people make a logical choice but do evil things to execute it, is what makes the series so interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

I'm 29 years old and began reading Jordan around 13 - so the majority of my life I have read Jordan's style within fantasy. I'm the type that's read the first 7 books about 15-20 times each. Throughout my life, I've read a variety of other fantasy/sci fi books - Feist, Orson Scott Card, etc...

 

Hey there,

 

My case is completely different to yours. Though I started reading TWoT long before I found ASoIaF, I started reading the latter precisely because I didn't like the direction Jordan had taken with his work, after book 6 or 7 in TWoT, and I decided to look elsewhere to fill my "reading gap".

 

This wasn't because of comparisons between the 2 series. It's just the fact that ASoIaF was more in line with my personal preferences. I simply prefer Martin's story, situations and characters, (the latter above all) much more than Jordan's. Maybe it's because I started reading both series when I was already well into my 30's and I had no preconceptions either way. Besides, maybe because of my age at the time I started reading both series, I found Martin's grittier, much more realistic story, world and characters much more pleasing than Jordan's.

 

At any rate, I think one can enjoy both series, just as long as you keep comparisons between the 2 at bay. To me, these 2 are just as different as...well, as fire and ice and I think that'd be doing a disservice to 2 outstanding writers, both of whom have created amazing stories and worlds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i just started A song of ice and fire too and i already finished the series, i read the whole series too quickly i think, really got into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

I'm 29 years old and began reading Jordan around 13 - so the majority of my life I have read Jordan's style within fantasy. I'm the type that's read the first 7 books about 15-20 times each. Throughout my life, I've read a variety of other fantasy/sci fi books - Feist, Orson Scott Card, etc...

 

Hey there,

 

My case is completely different to yours. Though I started reading TWoT long before I found ASoIaF, I started reading the latter precisely because I didn't like the direction Jordan had taken with his work, after book 6 or 7 in TWoT, and I decided to look elsewhere to fill my "reading gap".

 

This wasn't because of comparisons between the 2 series. It's just the fact that ASoIaF was more in line with my personal preferences. I simply prefer Martin's story, situations and characters, (the latter above all) much more than Jordan's. Maybe it's because I started reading both series when I was already well into my 30's and I had no preconceptions either way. Besides, maybe because of my age at the time I started reading both series, I found Martin's grittier, much more realistic story, world and characters much more pleasing than Jordan's.

 

At any rate, I think one can enjoy both series, just as long as you keep comparisons between the 2 at bay. To me, these 2 are just as different as...well, as fire and ice and I think that'd be doing a disservice to 2 outstanding writers, both of whom have created amazing stories and worlds.

 

 

WoW. To each his own. Let me start by saying that the "A Song of Fire and Ice" series is probably my second favorite series. With that said, its nowhere even utterlly close to how good WoT is. I cant see how anyone would prefer Martin over Jordan, or the Fire and Ice series over WoT, BUT people are different so opinions will vary.

 

What exactly do you like about Fire and Ice over WoT? Or Martin over Jordan, if thats the case.

 

My biggest gripe with Fire and Ice is that there isnt clearly one Hero/Main character to follow. At least you cant tell who it is thru the first 4 books(havent read book 5). And I'll give you that Martin's story seems more realistic, but that doesnt neccessarily equate to "better" in my eyes. I'm sure a story about the trench warfare of WW II would be very realistic, but not gonna keep my attention very long. I think Martin's desire to keep it TOO realistic cost him. We want to get involved with the characters. And they all keep dying.

 

I can see where youre coming from for the most part except about the Martin's story being more "gripping." I'd have to completely disagree here. Now if you based that on the first book of each series, Id give it to Martin by a landslide. But after the first book, there wasnt really anyone I was able to latch onto, except Robb, and we all know how that ends.

Edited by Brujah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

WoW. To each his own. Let me start by saying that the "A Song of Fire and Ice" series is probably my second favorite series. With that said, its nowhere even utterlly close to how good WoT is. I cant see how anyone would prefer Martin over Jordan, or the Fire and Ice series over WoT, BUT people are different so opinions will vary.

 

What exactly do you like about Fire and Ice over WoT? Or Martin over Jordan, if thats the case.

 

Well, to be frank, I don't like to compare both series because, even though they're both considered "epic fantasy" (and somehow, get thrown together too often) to me, ASoIaF and TWoT are as different as night and day.

 

It's not about Martin being better than Jordan or vice-versa. Like I said before, I turned to ASoIaF because TWoT got to a point where didn't like the direction Jordan took after the first 5, 6 books. It was seeing characters that I liked (Moiraine, Lanfear, Thom, Loial, Logain) taking a back seat or disappear altogether, whilst characters I disliked greatly (Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane) took on much more prominent roles, that drove me away from what, to that point, had been one of the best series I had ever read.

 

That, in addition to the whole plot diverging from Tarmon Gaidon (which I thought was supposed to be the whole point) and becoming an endless series of events involving third parties and cultures (such as Faile's kidnapping, Elayne's struggles for the Throne of Andor, the Seanchan invasion, etc.) that had no relevance to the main point.

 

It was not the appearance of these situations/cultures/characters that bothered me. It was the way Fades, Trollocs, Tinkers and other parties, clearly established as important factors early on, took a backseat to them. I just didn't find these newcomers/new situation as interesting as the parties they replaced in those middle/late books.

 

My biggest gripe with Fire and Ice is that there isnt clearly one Hero/Main character to follow. At least you cant tell who it is thru the first 4 books(havent read book 5). And I'll give you that Martin's story seems more realistic, but that doesnt neccessarily equate to "better" in my eyes. I'm sure a story about the trench warfare of WW II would be very realistic, but not gonna keep my attention very long. I think Martin's desire to keep it TOO realistic cost him. We want to get involved with the characters. And they all keep dying.

 

Curious. See, in my case, I'm not looking for the classic Hero's Journey, so I'm perfectly fine with ASoIaF not having such a character (though that's debatable, depending on what GRRM has planned for Jon and/or Dany). It was precisely the fact that no one is safe that lured me in, in part precisely because I never felt any sense of danger for any major character in TWoT.

 

I have to care about characters in order to get into a story and I just didn't feel like I cared enough about Rand and co., simply because, as I was reading, I knew they will win. And to me, it's mind boggling to see how, after 14, 800-1000 page books, no major character has died. Very predictable and unappealing for my taste.

 

I can see where youre coming from for the most part except about the Martin's story being more "gripping." I'd have to completely disagree here. Now if you based that on the first book of each series, Id give it to Martin by a landslide. But after the first book, there wasnt really anyone I was able to latch onto, except Robb, and we all know how that ends.

 

I guess this depends entirely on personal preference and what you may be in the mood for as a reader. If you're looking for a more classic approach on High Fantasy or Sword and Sorcery, then I guess it's safe to say that TWoT is as good as it comes. It's just that TWoT became too juvenile and predictable for me.

 

As for characters to latch on to in ASoIaF, well again, I'd say that's a matter of personal taste. I respect your opinion of course, but in this case, Robb wasn't even a POV character and I never really got into him. But, I'd say there's plenty of interesting characters who are still around (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Jaime) to keep most readers happy.

 

Again, I was neither comparing the 2 series nor calling one better than the other (that's a matter of personal taste. Both have their qualities and flaws, of course. ASoIaF just happens to be more appealing to me, perhaps because of my age, the life I've lived or simply my taste). In short, I gave both these series the same, fair chance. And, while I loved them both at the beginning, as I kept on reading, while ASoIaF kept going in a direction I liked, TWoT went completely the opposite way. Doesn't have anything to do with Jordan or Martin's quality, imagination, prose, etc. It's just a matter of personal preference.

 

All I was saying was that the best way to approach these books is by not comparing and just enjoying them for the very different and excellent kind of entertainment that each provides. Else, I believe the experience won't be as good as it can be.

 

EDIT: to correct spelling.

Edited by Darth Krewl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, if I didn't love this series I wouldn't be here, but this is how I see it.

 

In my mind where RJ truly shines is in his descriptions and epic moments. There are part of the WoT that I can reread over and over because they are so well done. But the bottom line for me, I started reading Wot at a very early age. Jordan has some huge strengths but there are also some fairly glaring weaknesses. Many of the character interactions are extremely juvenile and it has a rigid black/white view of evil. It will always have a special place in my heart but I wonder if it would have had the same impact had I come to it later in life.

 

Martin is far more gritty and realistic. The political intrigue is complex & layered, and as Wert said "Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT". Authors such as Martin and Bakker have really raised the bar to a new level in Fantasy. As I have become older and more well read I find myself gravitating towards their works more often. Part of this may be due to BS taking over the series. I find that TGS and ToM have nowhere near the rereadability as the earlier books. In my mind the two best fantasy books to come out this year where "Dance with Dragons" and "White Luck Warrior", in my teens I would never have been able to imagine that could be the case during a year that a WoT book was released.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I havent read A Dance with Dragons, yet. Ive only read the first 4, so I'm gonna hold back on some of my previous thoughts until I do. I didnt mean to come across as bashing on Martin. Like I said its my second favorite series, and Ive read SOOOOOOOO many books in the genre.

 

I also cant wait to read Dance with Dragons, but like I said in another post, its only out in hardback, and im poor, and I cant afford to pay 35 bux for a book right now. Ill wait for soft version. Also im half way thru Gathering Storm, which is really good.

 

I'm actually hoping that Dance with Dragons will make or break the series for me. It has the potential to make the first four books better in my eyes, if it goes a certain way. And from many others opinions, it does. So ill have to wait and see. I just wish I could care more for what happens to many of the characters. Im so use to seeing main characters die all of a sudden, or disapear. And its disarming. The potential is there, I just wish Martin would "stroke the fires" a bit more on certain characters or lines.

 

I mean, I love the Jon Snow line, and I'd hate to see him die, but it wouldnt surprise me. I even like to follow the Arya storyline, which is odd, because I cant really relate to her character. And thus far Tyrion has disapeared. And I LOATHE the Sansa Stark story line. It and everything about it. Even Kings Landing has become a huge bore now that Tywin is dead. I found myself in the first book hoping for the day when we'd see Cersei, Jamie, and Tywin all suffer for their actions. Now Cersei is locked in a cell, and I could really care less what happens to her. Jamie has turned "good" and is actually very interesting, but no longer hated. And Tywin is dead. I desire to have someone to hate.

 

Anyway, I'm thinking Dance with Dragons can change alot of this. Ive been told that it starts pulling loose ends together, and I hope so. I HAVENT been told this, but sinse the end of book one, when Dany has the Dragons, Ive always thought the greater battle was gonna be between the White Walkers(and everything else that comes down with the Cold from beyond the wall) and Dany, her dragons, and whomever is left that ally with her. If thats the direction it goes Id be pleased. If not, it still has potential.

 

Look, if I didn't love this series I wouldn't be here, but this is how I see it.

 

In my mind where RJ truly shines is in his descriptions and epic moments. There are part of the WoT that I can reread over and over because they are so well done. But the bottom line for me, I started reading Wot at a very early age. Jordan has some huge strengths but there are also some fairly glaring weaknesses. Many of the character interactions are extremely juvenile and it has a rigid black/white view of evil. It will always have a special place in my heart but I wonder if it would have had the same impact had I come to it later in life.

 

Martin is far more gritty and realistic. The political intrigue is complex & layered, and as Wert said "Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT". Authors such as Martin and Bakker have really raised the bar to a new level in Fantasy. As I have become older and more well read I find myself gravitating towards their works more often. Part of this may be due to BS taking over the series. I find that TGS and ToM have nowhere near the rereadability as the earlier books. In my mind the two best fantasy books to come out this year where "Dance with Dragons" and "White Luck Warrior", in my teens I would never have been able to imagine that could be the case during a year that a WoT book was released.

 

I'd have to say I feel the opposite in that regard. I feel that ASoFaI would have been a much easier read in my teens, and that WoT would have been my older personas choice. I find WoT to be the more mature, and even if we disagree on that, I dont think we can disagree on the actual writing style. Martin's style is very straight-forward;I almost feel as if I can already write on his level. But I couldnt imagine of being able to write like Jordan. It's just brilliant.

 

But I do very much agree on some of the "juvenile" character interactions, and on the black/white view of "evil." But it's made up for tenfold, in my opinion, by many of the other interactions. I just think thats what you get with an epic series so grand. Such variety would exist in such a huge world.

 

But they're both amazing in one aspect. They both create their world. You get a sense of history from both books almost as if you know as much about their histories, as we do of our own. They create unique peoples and lands, both disticnt and vivid. Its one of the main reasons that I like both series so well. You can tell what a Domani woman in WoT is gonna look like or act like, even before she starts. Same as a character from the Iron Islands.

 

To try to compare the two is folly, I think thats what you're both saying. I agree. They're remarkable in both their similarities, and differences.

Edited by Brujah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, if I didn't love this series I wouldn't be here, but this is how I see it.

 

In my mind where RJ truly shines is in his descriptions and epic moments. There are part of the WoT that I can reread over and over because they are so well done. But the bottom line for me, I started reading Wot at a very early age. Jordan has some huge strengths but there are also some fairly glaring weaknesses. Many of the character interactions are extremely juvenile and it has a rigid black/white view of evil. It will always have a special place in my heart but I wonder if it would have had the same impact had I come to it later in life.

 

Martin is far more gritty and realistic. The political intrigue is complex & layered, and as Wert said "Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT". Authors such as Martin and Bakker have really raised the bar to a new level in Fantasy. As I have become older and more well read I find myself gravitating towards their works more often. Part of this may be due to BS taking over the series. I find that TGS and ToM have nowhere near the rereadability as the earlier books. In my mind the two best fantasy books to come out this year where "Dance with Dragons" and "White Luck Warrior", in my teens I would never have been able to imagine that could be the case during a year that a WoT book was released.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Jordan's descriptions of characters' gestures, costumes, locations, epic battles, etc. is unparalleled, IMO. But his characters and interactions are extremely juvenile and, while it's ok at first (since the main characters were naive, innocent kids from a small town in the middle of nowhere, after all), the whole thing gets old after a while. I just didn't see any growth in characters such as Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Elayne. Only exception, IMO, would be Nynaeve...and not by much.

 

I do believe that TWoT's impact is directly related to the age you were when you first started reading. In my case, I was already well into my 30's when a friend recommended the series 3 yrs. ago, so TWoT maybe just failed to make such a big impact on me because of this. As I was reading, the feeling I got was that I had already "been there, done that". Simply because I had read a lot for almost 30 yrs. and I do mean a lot lol. Had I picked up TEotW when it first came out (when I was in my late teens), I'm positive Jordan would've been able to make the impact that others who came before him had on me.

 

Yeah, I havent read A Dance with Dragons, yet. Ive only read the first 4, so I'm gonna hold back on some of my previous thoughts until I do. I didnt mean to come across as bashing on Martin. Like I said its my second favorite series, and Ive read SOOOOOOOO many books in the genre.

 

I also cant wait to read Dance with Dragons, but like I said in another post, its only out in hardback, and im poor, and I cant afford to pay 35 bux for a book right now. Ill wait for soft version. Also im half way thru Gathering Storm, which is really good.

 

I'm actually hoping that Dance with Dragons will make or break the series for me. It has the potential to make the first four books better in my eyes, if it goes a certain way. And from many others opinions, it does. So ill have to wait and see. I just wish I could care more for what happens to many of the characters. Im so use to seeing main characters die all of a sudden, or disapear. And its disarming. The potential is there, I just wish Martin would "stroke the fires" a bit more on certain characters or lines.

 

I mean, I love the Jon Snow line, and I'd hate to see him die, but it wouldnt surprise me. I even like to follow the Arya storyline, which is odd, because I cant really relate to her character. And thus far Tyrion has disapeared. And I LOATHE the Sansa Stark story line. It and everything about it. Even Kings Landing has become a huge bore now that Tywin is dead. I found myself in the first book hoping for the day when we'd see Cersei, Jamie, and Tywin all suffer for their actions. Now Cersei is locked in a cell, and I could really care less what happens to her. Jamie has turned "good" and is actually very interesting, but no longer hated. And Tywin is dead. I desire to have someone to hate.

 

Anyway, I'm thinking Dance with Dragons can change alot of this. Ive been told that it starts pulling loose ends together, and I hope so. I HAVENT been told this, but sinse the end of book one, when Dany has the Dragons, Ive always thought the greater battle was gonna be between the White Walkers(and everything else that comes down with the Cold from beyond the wall) and Dany, her dragons, and whomever is left that ally with her. If thats the direction it goes Id be pleased. If not, it still has potential.

 

...To try to compare the two is folly, I think thats what you're both saying. I agree. They're remarkable in both their similarities, and differences.

 

Sorry to hear about your financial situation. I hope you can get your hands on ADwD asap, because it is worth it, believe me. Is it the best book in the series? Hmm...no, not really. But to me, it was a vast improvement over AFfC. Then again, that's because none of my fave characters (Jon, Tyrion, Dany) appeared on that book and there's plenty of them in ADwD. That's all I'm gonna say about it hehe...

 

To me, there's 2 major struggles going on in the ASoIaF universe: humans vs. the Others, yes and also the continuous game for the Iron Throne. IMO, this is what makes ASoIaF such an interesting read. It's not your typical Hero's Quest/Journey, where this young man from a poor, small town has to topple this villainous dictatorship/empire, but a realistic conflict where you have honor vs. deviousness, love vs. greed, etc. and, while there's no clear line between good and bad, everyone has their own views on right and wrong. Just like in real life.

 

Yes, my point was that it wouldn't be fair going into any of these 2 series comparing them. There's similarities, sure, but IMO, the main thing is that both are great reads and we're better off enjoying each on their own and for what they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, if I didn't love this series I wouldn't be here, but this is how I see it.

 

In my mind where RJ truly shines is in his descriptions and epic moments. There are part of the WoT that I can reread over and over because they are so well done. But the bottom line for me, I started reading Wot at a very early age. Jordan has some huge strengths but there are also some fairly glaring weaknesses. Many of the character interactions are extremely juvenile and it has a rigid black/white view of evil. It will always have a special place in my heart but I wonder if it would have had the same impact had I come to it later in life.

 

Martin is far more gritty and realistic. The political intrigue is complex & layered, and as Wert said "Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT". Authors such as Martin and Bakker have really raised the bar to a new level in Fantasy. As I have become older and more well read I find myself gravitating towards their works more often. Part of this may be due to BS taking over the series. I find that TGS and ToM have nowhere near the rereadability as the earlier books. In my mind the two best fantasy books to come out this year where "Dance with Dragons" and "White Luck Warrior", in my teens I would never have been able to imagine that could be the case during a year that a WoT book was released.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Jordan's descriptions of characters' gestures, costumes, locations, epic battles, etc. is unparalleled, IMO. But his characters and interactions are extremely juvenile and, while it's ok at first (since the main characters were naive, innocent kids from a small town in the middle of nowhere, after all), the whole thing gets old after a while. I just didn't see any growth in characters such as Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Elayne. Only exception, IMO, would be Nynaeve...and not by much.

 

I do believe that TWoT's impact is directly related to the age you were when you first started reading. In my case, I was already well into my 30's when a friend recommended the series 3 yrs. ago, so TWoT maybe just failed to make such a big impact on me because of this. As I was reading, the feeling I got was that I had already "been there, done that". Simply because I had read a lot for almost 30 yrs. and I do mean a lot lol. Had I picked up TEotW when it first came out (when I was in my late teens), I'm positive Jordan would've been able to make the impact that others who came before him had on me.

 

Yeah, I havent read A Dance with Dragons, yet. Ive only read the first 4, so I'm gonna hold back on some of my previous thoughts until I do. I didnt mean to come across as bashing on Martin. Like I said its my second favorite series, and Ive read SOOOOOOOO many books in the genre.

 

I also cant wait to read Dance with Dragons, but like I said in another post, its only out in hardback, and im poor, and I cant afford to pay 35 bux for a book right now. Ill wait for soft version. Also im half way thru Gathering Storm, which is really good.

 

I'm actually hoping that Dance with Dragons will make or break the series for me. It has the potential to make the first four books better in my eyes, if it goes a certain way. And from many others opinions, it does. So ill have to wait and see. I just wish I could care more for what happens to many of the characters. Im so use to seeing main characters die all of a sudden, or disapear. And its disarming. The potential is there, I just wish Martin would "stroke the fires" a bit more on certain characters or lines.

 

I mean, I love the Jon Snow line, and I'd hate to see him die, but it wouldnt surprise me. I even like to follow the Arya storyline, which is odd, because I cant really relate to her character. And thus far Tyrion has disapeared. And I LOATHE the Sansa Stark story line. It and everything about it. Even Kings Landing has become a huge bore now that Tywin is dead. I found myself in the first book hoping for the day when we'd see Cersei, Jamie, and Tywin all suffer for their actions. Now Cersei is locked in a cell, and I could really care less what happens to her. Jamie has turned "good" and is actually very interesting, but no longer hated. And Tywin is dead. I desire to have someone to hate.

 

Anyway, I'm thinking Dance with Dragons can change alot of this. Ive been told that it starts pulling loose ends together, and I hope so. I HAVENT been told this, but sinse the end of book one, when Dany has the Dragons, Ive always thought the greater battle was gonna be between the White Walkers(and everything else that comes down with the Cold from beyond the wall) and Dany, her dragons, and whomever is left that ally with her. If thats the direction it goes Id be pleased. If not, it still has potential.

 

...To try to compare the two is folly, I think thats what you're both saying. I agree. They're remarkable in both their similarities, and differences.

 

Sorry to hear about your financial situation. I hope you can get your hands on ADwD asap, because it is worth it, believe me. Is it the best book in the series? Hmm...no, not really. But to me, it was a vast improvement over AFfC. Then again, that's because none of my fave characters (Jon, Tyrion, Dany) appeared on that book and there's plenty of them in ADwD. That's all I'm gonna say about it hehe...

 

To me, there's 2 major struggles going on in the ASoIaF universe: humans vs. the Others, yes and also the continuous game for the Iron Throne. IMO, this is what makes ASoIaF such an interesting read. It's not your typical Hero's Quest/Journey, where this young man from a poor, small town has to topple this villainous dictatorship/empire, but a realistic conflict where you have honor vs. deviousness, love vs. greed, etc. and, while there's no clear line between good and bad, everyone has their own views on right and wrong. Just like in real life.

 

Yes, my point was that it wouldn't be fair going into any of these 2 series comparing them. There's similarities, sure, but IMO, the main thing is that both are great reads and we're better off enjoying each on their own and for what they are.

 

I'd have to toss this into the equation when we're discussing the fact that Martins relationships are more mature, gritty, realistic, etc...

 

I think you have to remember that most of Martin's characters are normal humans. Whereas most of the main characters in WoT have godlike powers, fit bodies, beautiful faces, extremely long life...I have to imagine how people like this WOULD interact, and I think he nails it brilliantly. It may come off as a bit on the "less mature" side, but I just think thats how they would really have to behave around each other. I think its extremely well thought, demonstrated, and written.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd have to toss this into the equation when we're discussing the fact that Martins relationships are more mature, gritty, realistic, etc...

 

I think you have to remember that most of Martin's characters are normal humans. Whereas most of the main characters in WoT have godlike powers, fit bodies, beautiful faces, extremely long life...I have to imagine how people like this WOULD interact, and I think he nails it brilliantly. It may come off as a bit on the "less mature" side, but I just think thats how they would really have to behave around each other. I think its extremely well thought, demonstrated, and written.

 

Funny, because I have nothing against Mr. Jordan's magic system. Quite the contrary, in fact. I was hooked on the first 5, 6 books of his series, precisely because of how much I was enjoying the mysticism of his One Power/True Source. I thought it was very well planned out and executed.

 

Unfortunately, it seems to me like all that promising stuff (such as the back story of the AoL, the mysteries behind the -angreal devices, the Dark One's power and reach, so on and so forth) took a back seat to stuff such as Faile's kidnapping, Egwene's rise to power and her eventual capture, Mat's whole ordeal with Tuon, Elayne's struggle for the throne, endless Aes Sedai bickering and conspiring and the worst (at least for me)...romances between secondary characters (Bryne-Siuan, Tallanvor-Morgase) that I couldn't give a hoot for. So, in a sense, it was precisely the fact that Jordan exchanged magic and wonder for political intrigue, cheap romance and basically trivial stuff, that turned me off.

 

As for the relationships, well...since it is a fantasy universe, the characters will behave in accordance to the author's imagination, of course. In this case, you may be right: Jordan's characters may be perfect for their world. If that's the case, then I can respect that, but that doesn't mean I have to agree or go along with it...hehe...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just started reading Game of Thrones last night. Haven't gotten too far. Catelyn's 2nd chapter I think. I have to say it really makes me appreciate EotW. We don't know anything about the WoT universe at the start of EotW, but it doesn't matter because neither does Rand or the others, so we can learn with them. With Game of Thrones I've just been dumped straight in the thick of things with a load of stuff I don't understand. That's not a complaint...it's just different.

 

I have to say I wasn't very keen on the opening scene. You have a noble sitting there arguing round and round with two soldiers, which doesn't seem very realistic for a lord. And I'm finding Catelyn and Ned's relationship a bit weird at the moment. Sometimes it seems like they're supposed to have a lot of love and respect for each other and sometimes they seem very distant. And Jon Snow annoys me. But over all enjoying it so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just started reading Game of Thrones last night. Haven't gotten too far. Catelyn's 2nd chapter I think. I have to say it really makes me appreciate EotW. We don't know anything about the WoT universe at the start of EotW, but it doesn't matter because neither does Rand or the others, so we can learn with them. With Game of Thrones I've just been dumped straight in the thick of things with a load of stuff I don't understand. That's not a complaint...it's just different.

 

AGoT is slow at the beginning. It takes a while getting to take off, true. But then again, TEotW feels like a ripoff of the TFotR for the first 200-300 pages. Even Jordan admitted having "borrowed" from Tolkien in order to generate more interest among fantasy readers. That's not a good thing either, because it also takes a while for the story to take off and have life of its own. Bottom line: you have to be patient when reading both these series.

 

I have to say I wasn't very keen on the opening scene. You have a noble sitting there arguing round and round with two soldiers, which doesn't seem very realistic for a lord. And I'm finding Catelyn and Ned's relationship a bit weird at the moment. Sometimes it seems like they're supposed to have a lot of love and respect for each other and sometimes they seem very distant. And Jon Snow annoys me. But over all enjoying it so far.

 

There is no argument between a nobleman and some soldiers. Waymar Royce is a former noble while Will and Gared are both lowborn men, yes. But they're all sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, thus the 3 are equals (at least on paper). Rank is what determines status and authority within the Night's Watch, not birth. Royce's noble origins have nothing to do with his interaction with Will and Gared. It's the fact that he's the 3 Ranger patrol's leader that comes into play there.

 

Nothing wrong with finding Jon Snow annoying. Just keep in mind that he's a mere 14 yr. old boy, who happens to be in the very undesirable position of having been raised as a nobleman by his father (one of Westeros most powerful overlords) while always being limited by his condition as Ned Stark's bastard. In Westerosi society, that's a lose-lose proposition because a bastard can never aspire to the same things as a legitimate son, so Jon doesn't belong anywhere really, and he knows it. Taking that into consideration, the character's moody, whinny behavior is perfectly natural, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I have to say I wasn't very keen on the opening scene. You have a noble sitting there arguing round and round with two soldiers, which doesn't seem very realistic for a lord. And I'm finding Catelyn and Ned's relationship a bit weird at the moment. Sometimes it seems like they're supposed to have a lot of love and respect for each other and sometimes they seem very distant. And Jon Snow annoys me. But over all enjoying it so far.

 

There is no argument between a nobleman and some soldiers. Waymar Royce is a former noble while Will and Gared are both lowborn men, yes. But they're all sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, thus the 3 are equals (at least on paper). Rank is what determines status and authority within the Night's Watch, not birth. Royce's noble origins have nothing to do with his interaction with Will and Gared. It's the fact that he's the 3 Ranger patrol's leader that comes into play there.

 

Nothing wrong with finding Jon Snow annoying. Just keep in mind that he's a mere 14 yr. old boy, who happens to be in the very undesirable position of having been raised as a nobleman by his father (one of Westeros most powerful overlords) while always being limited by his condition as Ned Stark's bastard. In Westerosi society, that's a lose-lose proposition because a bastard can never aspire to the same things as a legitimate son, so Jon doesn't belong anywhere really, and he knows it. Taking that into consideration, the character's moody, whinny behavior is perfectly natural, IMO.

 

It's not the arguing that bothered me as such. It's the fact that the noble didn't get straight to the point (it not being cold enough to kill people when they have furs/fires) to avoid the arguing.

 

And I think my issue with Jon Snow is that I find it hard to remember how young he is, because I watched a bit of the first episode of the TV series and he was older in that lol. So I have this image of him being a young man and then I read about him acting like an annoying brat and it kind of jars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...