Now we're pondering Cyndane

[clu7ch]

Ok, you all know how this works. I want to bounce idea's off of you.

Firstly, we're going to presume that Lanfear and Cyndane are the same soul.

 

Ok, Moiraine told us in Towers that regardless of the force of their intrusion into Finnland, the finn's were obligated to maintain the bargain, thus she was allowed to make her 3 requests, and they were required to meet those requirements, presumably as long as they didn't lead to one's freedom.

 

Therefor, Lanfear was allowed, again, presumably, to make her 3 requests. I'm terribly interested in what those might be.

Furthermore, I'd love to know if she was allowed to keep then as Cyndane, or how that works, with transmigration. I lean towards not, beings Cyndane is a completely different being, with Lanfear's soul - as I understand (but I may be mistaken)

 

My next thing is only partially related to Lanfear. Moiraine spoke of being woken by the Finn's when a man came to visit. Thoughts on who this is? I lean towards Moridin almost exclusively here, but i have problems with that too. The dark one, in my opinion, doesn't get a body, ever. He's like.....just....non-corporeal. Why i have a problem with it being Moridin, is this: first, and shortest to type, how did he get there. Second, what reason would he have for being there at all? If she was dead, why would they need her body, transmigration seems to not require having a present body. I like how this is getting more into transmigration than lanfear or cyndane. The only thing I can think of here is that whatever reality finnland is in, the dark one can't transmigrate from there, which makes sense.

 

Also, to make this a little more relevant to Memory of Light, I believe her plea to Rand via dreamworld was dead on genuine. I have absolutely no proof, or backup for that, other than when I read it, i had a freaking good feeling.

[Hadilmir]

My next thing is only partially related to Lanfear. Moiraine spoke of being woken by the Finn's when a man came to visit. Thoughts on who this is? I lean towards Moridin almost exclusively here, but i have problems with that too. The dark one, in my opinion, doesn't get a body, ever. He's like.....just....non-corporeal. Why i have a problem with it being Moridin, is this: first, and shortest to type, how did he get there. Second, what reason would he have for being there at all? If she was dead, why would they need her body, transmigration seems to not require having a present body. I like how this is getting more into transmigration than lanfear or cyndane. The only thing I can think of here is that whatever reality finnland is in, the dark one can't transmigrate from there, which makes sense.

There is the possibility Moridin wanted Lanfear reincarnated in her old body. It remained a functioning body, after all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been long suggested Elan loved Mierin? I may be making that up though, so don't trust it.

[MarkDiLillo]

The only thing that makes everything complicated is....

 

Someone came to get Lanfear from the finns...we presume this is Moridin. But if the finns killed Lanfear like Moiraine claims they told her...then why did he come? Wouldn't the Dark One have known that she was dead and already transmigrated her soul at this point. There would be no reason for Moridin to travel and retrieve her. Unless she died after Moridin arrived to retrieve her.

 

So ya....Lanfear will have an interesting role in the last book Im sure.

[DemandredFO]

Someone's lying because Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear and wouldn't she only have gotten that way by by being fed on.

[Terez]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been long suggested Elan loved Mierin? I may be making that up though, so don't trust it.

Good instincts, since that was just a theory. It was my theory, which I posted on TL after TOM came out, but Brandon accidentally debunked it when Luckers asked him if Moridin was gay and Brandon said there wasn't anything he'd seen in the notes to indicate either way.

[Negawonka]

Someone's lying because Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear and wouldn't she only have gotten that way by by being fed on.

 

While not necessarily the only way, I think it is the most likely reason for her diminished strength. Being transmigrated isn't the same as being reborn so the ability of the one person to channel the one power remains the same as when they died (thus Aran'gar channels Saidin). So if Lanfear was fed on and then transmigrated to Cyndane, Cyndane would have diminished strength.

 

That doesn't prove that anyone is lying though. There could be dozens of reasons why she died after she was fed on that still allow for someone having came for her. Perhaps they came just to kill her. Would certainly be easier for the shadow to kill her and transmigrate her than trying to bargain with the 'finns. Or perhaps they came and got her only to find she was stark raving mad (or incapacitated in some other way that wouldn't effect her transmigration) and had to put her down. A forsaken without any legs would hardly be ideal after all.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been long suggested Elan loved Mierin? I may be making that up though, so don't trust it.

Good instincts, since that was just a theory. It was my theory, which I posted on TL after TOM came out, but Brandon accidentally debunked it when Luckers asked him if Moridin was gay and Brandon said there wasn't anything he'd seen in the notes to indicate either way.

 

That's a shame, I liked this theory. It had potential.

[mockeryjones]

Also, to make this a little more relevant to Memory of Light, I believe her plea to Rand via dreamworld was dead on genuine. I have absolutely no proof, or backup for that, other than when I read it, i had a freaking good feeling.

 

I don't believe her plea was genuine. I think her appearance in his dream was her taking over the role that Moridin had previously assigned to Greandal. I'm not sure of the quote but when Moridin gave the Dreamspike to Greandal to aid in the assasination of Perrin he mentions that the task of driving Rand to distraction had been assigned to another. I'm pretty sure that dream was the first installment of Cyndane's efforts toward that end.

[Hadilmir]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been long suggested Elan loved Mierin? I may be making that up though, so don't trust it.

Good instincts, since that was just a theory. It was my theory, which I posted on TL after TOM came out, but Brandon accidentally debunked it when Luckers asked him if Moridin was gay and Brandon said there wasn't anything he'd seen in the notes to indicate either way.

Hmm, I guess that solves that. It seems not going to TL puts me a little behind lol

[clu7ch]

Another question i accidentally gave myself, if it was moridin, he presumably was held in the bargain and was thus allowed requests, correct?

[mackoY-kun]

Don't forget the "shattered" remains of the "Tear" Redstone Teragreal. It is possible that the mystery man came and forcibly took Lanfear and she died in the escape.

 

Another thing is, is it possible that "her lover" in the dark prophesies in fal dara be ishi/mori? why he "rescued her". keeps her as a pet. etc.

[Luckers]

Remember there are distinctions between Lanfear and Moiraine--specifically the Shadow, which the Aelfinn at least have some issue with. It remains possible Lanfear was given no wishes. Not likely, but it's still not locked in stone that she did get them.

[Taelin]

The only thing that makes everything complicated is....

 

Someone came to get Lanfear from the finns...we presume this is Moridin. But if the finns killed Lanfear like Moiraine claims they told her...then why did he come? Wouldn't the Dark One have known that she was dead and already transmigrated her soul at this point. There would be no reason for Moridin to travel and retrieve her. Unless she died after Moridin arrived to retrieve her.

 

So ya....Lanfear will have an interesting role in the last book Im sure.

 

Moiraine said she thought the snakes and foxes may have been lying to her about Lanfear dying, yet again I think she had to have died unless she was killed outright after she was recovered by Moridin as punishment. If not there would have been no reason to transmigrate her, and all indications say that this is not an easy thing to do for the DO, otherwise wouldn't he have TM'd Aginor a 2nd time when Dashiva was killed (not by balefire)? Additionally, Moiraine said the man before her said she was "not the one he wanted". Regardless of how he got there, I believe Moridin somehow came to Finnland (via Tear, ToG, portal stone, or some other means, perhaps even travelling straight to the Chamber of Bond... who knows what was possible in the Age of Legends) to recover her, and that Cyndane is the other recipient of the mindtrap.

 

As for her plea for help, I think it is genuine, as she was always attracted to Power. Remember that she was the strongest among women in the Power, and attracted to men of power who were also strong in the Power. Now she's been taken down a notch, no longer as strong as she was and subject to Moridin's whims due to the mindtrap. She has become a puppet and plaything for the shadow, and now wishes to get away. She's prime time for a conversion.

[threadnecromancer]

EDIT: Someone said the same thing I was going to so my response is somewhat superfluous.

[Lisa Campbell]

I can't remember the exact timing but I do remember that one of the Forsaken who was transmigrated was very displeased with her new body, and perhaps her new level of power (similar to Moiraine's drop.

 

It makes me hark back to my own assumption that this was Aran'gar but thinking about it now and remembering the involvement of Shadar Haran and mindtraps I've re-assessed and think that this scene is about Cyndane.

 

I don't think that Aran'gar would have been dismayed and angry about having a woman's body, and s/he's never been shown to be a victim of a Cour'souvra. He would have seen the benefits immediately. Lanfear on the other hand... the name Cyndane meaning last chance says it all really, as Cyndane she's under control and her power has been limited so she can't just do her own thing anymore.

[MarkDiLillo]

Has there been any confirmation that Lanfear even died? Is it possible her new appearance is a result of whatever happened to her in the finns world? Perhaps it was the price for her bargain? To take away what made her so unique...her height, her strength in the OP, her beauty, etc. would certainly take a toll on her and be a price the finns would love to extract I would imagine.

[Sharaman]

We've never seen the Finns lie - they stick to the letter of their bargains.

So, they may have told Moiraine the exact truth but we don't know what Moiraine asked and what the exact Finns statement was.

There's no question Cyndane= Lanfear=Meirin.

 

<Mark D said The only thing that makes everything complicated is....

 

Someone came to get Lanfear from the finns...we presume this is Moridin. But if the finns killed Lanfear like Moiraine claims they told her...then why did he come? Wouldn't the Dark One have known that she was dead and already transmigrated her soul at this point. There would be no reason for Moridin to travel and retrieve her. Unless she died after Moridin arrived to retrieve her.>

 

There's several possible explanations. Here's two that seem plausible

1) Moridin or whoever came may have done a sloppy bargain and the Finns killed her before returning the body.

2) Finnland is a different world - the GLoD may not be able to track her -- Graendal was contemplating running to a mirror world where she couldn't be tracked. Of course, the GLoD could seize Lanfear's soul -- but maybe he can only track her in the instant of dying.

 

As to diminished strength - again two explanations

1) The Finns drained off some of her strength. We don;t know enough about this process to guess how much they need to drain how fast to kill her in shock if Moiraine's story is correct.

Hence transmigration only picked up what strength she had left - this is still at the highest end, Cyndane is stronger than Graendal.

2) Lanfear's OP was totally drained when she died and she was Healed post transmigration by a woman. That led to diminished strength.

 

I think Moiraine said that they both got bargains but it's unclear whether she actually witnessed it, or the Finns said "You will both get bargains".

 

 

 

2)

[mackoY-kun]

I could be wrong but as I think about it, Lanfear may not have known about the finns, the redstone may have been passed their time and she did not know to ask them.

[Sharaman]

The Finns speak a dialect of the OT to men.

The Rhuidean gate was definitely carried there by AS who must have acquired before the Breaking.

So they were definitely around at that time.

Meirin Sedai was one of the foremost researchers of that time and we know she was interested in other worlds.

Very likely she would have known whatever the AoL knew about the Finns.

In ToM Moiraine says something like "The bargain held for both of us but we couldn't return with the gate destroyed"---

About the only thin we know about the bargains is that neither Moiraine nor Lanfear asked for the Finns to kill the other.

[pamela]

I like the Mark D's idea that Lanfear's new appearance and strenght in OP is the price she paid for her bargain. I think it would be definetely a more painful and infuriating way to loose her former self then tGLoD giving her that new body. It would be something new and refreshing, not like transmigrating everybody again and again. And it's likely that she and Moiraine couldn't see each other bargaining, just like when Moiraine, Rand and Mat were asking Eelfinns questions in the same time, yet in separate chambers. As to Finns lying- maybe it applies to bargaing and answering the questions only? Another thought of mine: if it was Moridin who came for Lanfear and if he learned that Moiraine was there... or even not and just in case... anyway, perhaps he used Compulsion on them, so that they would have false memories or lie about Lanfear?

[pamela]

... Or maybe it was cruelty of Moridin who came in the middle of the party and decided to let hosts drain Lanfear off and accidentally kill her (well, how could he have known they would have killed her... if he hadn't, he should have interfered) to punish her. But, if Lanfear really had died drained off, wouldn't she have been transmigrated as unable to channel?

[Sharaman]

I like the Mark D's idea that Lanfear's new appearance and strenght in OP is the price she paid for her bargain. I think it would be definetely a more painful and infuriating way to loose her former self then tGLoD giving her that new body. It would be something new and refreshing, not like transmigrating everybody again and again. And it's likely that she and Moiraine couldn't see each other bargaining, just like when Moiraine, Rand and Mat were asking Eelfinns questions in the same time, yet in separate chambers. As to Finns lying- maybe it applies to bargaing and answering the questions only? Another thought of mine: if it was Moridin who came for Lanfear and if he learned that Moiraine was there... or even not and just in case... anyway, perhaps he used Compulsion on them, so that they would have false memories or lie about Lanfear?

 

We have no reason to believe the Finns can transmigrate souls and where did they acquire the body?

We do know the GLoD can and does transmigrate, and he does have access to bodies.

More likely to be the GLoD.

 

Yes quite likely, neither Moiraine or Lanfear saw each other's bargains.

 

We've never actually seen the Finns lie - they twist the truth.

Since RJ "borrowed" the Finn from the faerie folk of Celtic legend, he may have decided to make them incapable of lying like the faerie.

 

Moiraine definitely saw the man who came for Lanfear so he presumably saw her

Moridin knows Moiraine - he was present when she balefired Belal. Of course, Moiraine doesn't know Moridin since he's in a new body.

In fact, Moiraine doesn't know about the GLoD's transmigration ability as far as we know.

[Cycotyme]

This is all from memory so some of my 'facts' might be a little off (working on a Saturday FTL). Anyhow, here is my take on Lanfear's power issue:

 

Lanfear has never been very strong with the power. It was the bracelet Angreal that made her powerful, right? When Moriane and Lanfear went through the twisted doorframe Moriane was said to have snatched her bracelet. And when Moriane got freed she said that she was personally weaker, but with the bracelet she was more powerful then she was before. And wasn’t she said to have been one of the most powerful alive before she was drained? (not counting the Two Rivers folk that were recently discovered)

 

So, not only did the Finns drain some of her already weak power, but she was weak anyway without the Angreal.

[pamela]

We have no reason to believe the Finns can transmigrate souls and where did they acquire the body?

 

Of course we don't, and I didn't mean that! I was talking generally about the ways in which the Forsaken appear again on the scene, in new body. And so far we've seen only tGLoD trasmigrating their souls. I'm glad you inderstood the rest, maybe it's just my English

 

Cycotyme, I don't think we can say that Lanfear was weak. Even as Cyndane she is still very strong (this is all from my memory as well, so I don't remember if in her POV Graendal noted that Cyndane was still stronger than herself or almost equally strong, which anyway was not commom even in AoL). And we cannot compare Lanfear with Supergirls either- Nyn, the strongest of them, is merely Moggy's equal.

[Sharaman]

Lanfear was by far the strongest female channeller ever.

There's been a lot of argument as to whether she was the second strongest forsaken.

(It's possible that Aginor -Dashiva was stronger and Ishamael Moridin definitely is)

The angreal Moiraine left for her in Carhein made even stronger.

Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear but still among the very strongest of female channelers around. Only Alivia with an angreal was stronger and Alivia is much more powerful than Nyn and Someryn who are both Forsaken-class.

 

Graendal has a Pov in TPOD when she thinks about this and Cyndane's only PoV in WH also makes a reference to her strength before she was held by the Finns.

 

Edit: Arguments about relative strength of channelers usually degenerates into name-calling for some reason and generally gets locked by moderators at some stage. But there are several such threads and you can have great fun arguing about it until the thread gets locked. There's also a famous list out there at the 13th depository.