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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Balefire happy place


Xcorpyo001
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I've managed to find some of the interviews with the authors, but I'm still behind on this subject. So maybe someone more knowledgeable can help me with an answer.

At first I thought balefire=bye bye.

Now, it will seem the idea changed and it's more like 'the thread is burned from the Pattern, the DO can't touch the soul of the victim, and after a random time in limbo the thread will be reinserted in the Pattern'

 

Is this place where balefired guys spent the time before the next 'reincarnation' the Dream World/TaR?

They just hang in there like the Heroes of the Horn?

Or it's just some sort of stasis?

Is there an interview/quote from RJ or BS about this 'happy place'?

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I've managed to find some of the interviews with the authors, but I'm still behind on this subject. So maybe someone more knowledgeable can help me with an answer.

At first I thought balefire=bye bye.

Now, it will seem the idea changed and it's more like 'the thread is burned from the Pattern, the DO can't touch the soul of the victim, and after a random time in limbo the thread will be reinserted in the Pattern'

 

Is this place where balefired guys spent the time before the next 'reincarnation' the Dream World/TaR?

They just hang in there like the Heroes of the Horn?

Or it's just some sort of stasis?

Is there an interview/quote from RJ or BS about this 'happy place'?

 

I don't think there's any difference with dying any other way, apart from the DO not being able to capture the balefired soul because of the messing up time thing. The balefired soul goes where other souls go (wherever that is).

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Only heroes chill in TAR. Everyone else's soul returns to some essence of the universe, I'd guess the true source itself. And those souls are more generic things.

 

My analogy as I see it: The dead Heroes of the Horn are like figurines sitting on a mantle piece, all nicely arrayed and beautifully sculptured in fine detail. All the other souls are like a barrel beside the fireplace filled up with lose, generic figurines that look more like un-iced gingerbread men in their lack of definition.

 

When it's time for some regular folk to be born, the wheel reaches into the barrel, grabs some generic souls and throws them into the world. Hero figures are individually and carefully placed.

 

But anyway, as time goes on your thread moves along the age lace getting woven amongst other threads. When you die it's cut off at that point, others around it keep going forward. When balefired, it's more like taking a lighter to it instead of scissors. Not only is it severed, but you lose a piece of the end that was already woven in. This changes how the threads it had been woven into lay in the age lace. They no longer touch the burned away thread and fall differently. This is the 'undoing' of events. More balefire might be more like a blowtorch instead of a lighter, you lose more of the end and more threads, backwards through the age lace, are effected.

 

So when a thread is cut, the DO has a small window where he can grab the end and tie it back together with the thread source. The knot basically being a new body. However, when balefired, the death, marked by the end of the thread, is in the past and beyond his reach.

 

Or an analogy for that might be that when 1 thread is cut, the source continues forward, weaving the rest of the pattern. If you wanted to tie a cut thread back to the source you have to do it quickly because there is only so much slack in the pattern and eventually the source (the thread spool aka true source/wheel of time) gets too far away and the cut thread doesn't streach far enough to make a knot. If you add to that burning off the end, That gap between the end of the thread and the source could start off too big to make a reconnection, no matter how fast the DO is.

 

And if the connection isn't made, Heroes go back on the mantle, others get tossed hap'hazardly into the barrel.

 

Is that any help? lol

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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Yeah RJ confirmed that normal souls go elsewhere than TAR in death, and that Balefire deaths work the same as normal deaths, only that because of the balefire the death occured before the Dark One knew of it, and thus the narrow window the Dark One has after death to secure the soul for transmigration is already closed before he knew he needed to act....

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Only heroes chill in TAR. Everyone else's soul returns to some essence of the universe, I'd guess the true source itself. And those souls are more generic things.

 

My analogy as I see it: The dead Heroes of the Horn are like figurines sitting on a mantle piece, all nicely arrayed and beautifully sculptured in fine detail. All the other souls are like a barrel beside the fireplace filled up with lose, generic figurines that look more like un-iced gingerbread men in their lack of definition.

 

When it's time for some regular folk to be born, the wheel reaches into the barrel, grabs some generic souls and throws them into the world. Hero figures are individually and carefully placed.

 

But anyway, as time goes on your thread moves along the age lace getting woven amongst other threads. When you die it's cut off at that point, others around it keep going forward. When balefired, it's more like taking a lighter to it instead of scissors. Not only is it severed, but you lose a piece of the end that was already woven in. This changes how the threads it had been woven into lay in the age lace. They no longer touch the burned away thread and fall differently. This is the 'undoing' of events. More balefire might be more like a blowtorch instead of a lighter, you lose more of the end and more threads, backwards through the age lace, are effected.

 

So when a thread is cut, the DO has a small window where he can grab the end and tie it back together with the thread source. The knot basically being a new body. However, when balefired, the death, marked by the end of the thread, is in the past and beyond his reach.

 

Or an analogy for that might be that when 1 thread is cut, the source continues forward, weaving the rest of the pattern. If you wanted to tie a cut thread back to the source you have to do it quickly because there is only so much slack in the pattern and eventually the source (the thread spool aka true source/wheel of time) gets too far away and the cut thread doesn't streach far enough to make a knot. If you add to that burning off the end, That gap between the end of the thread and the source could start off too big to make a reconnection, no matter how fast the DO is.

 

And if the connection isn't made, Heroes go back on the mantle, others get tossed hap'hazardly into the barrel.

 

Is that any help? lol

 

This was a very good explanation!

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Yeah RJ confirmed that normal souls go elsewhere than TAR in death, and that Balefire deaths work the same as normal deaths, only that because of the balefire the death occured before the Dark One knew of it, and thus the narrow window the Dark One has after death to secure the soul for transmigration is already closed before he knew he needed to act....

That's good to know. Insightful.

I was under the impression that Balefired people are burned out of the pettern FOR ALL TIME (I'm sure something along this line is indicated in the books)... I was very surprised when Rand Balefired Lea in Shadar-logoth (not to mention Natrin Barrow later on).

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Okay, I had an interesting thought regarding Ishamael, Heroes of the Horn, and the cyclical nature of the wheel.

 

“Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!” He finished in a shout, with a raised fist, and it was Lews Therin’s turn to pull back, breath catching at the glow in the Betrayer’s eyes.

 

This seems to imply that these 2 souls are infinitely chosen as champions of the dark and light. So question 1, where does Ishamael's soul reside between death and rebirth? T'A'R?

 

Ch: 47 The Grave Is No Bar to My Call [/i]from TGH']

Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. “Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day.” Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. “With your permission . . . Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?

 

So the T'A'R holds the heroes of the horn and also is a reflection of the world. The world follows the wheel, in that it repeats its ages infinitely throughout time. These heroes are spun out, as needed by the pattern. So how can the Pattern add a hero to the list of Heroes of the Horn, without that hero already having been a hero in the past? For example, if Hurin truly was added, shouldn't he be added every third age? Does this mean he is removed later on?

Edited by Clouded
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Okay, I had an interesting thought regarding Ishamael, Heroes of the Horn, and the cyclical nature of the wheel.

 

“Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!” He finished in a shout, with a raised fist, and it was Lews Therin’s turn to pull back, breath catching at the glow in the Betrayer’s eyes.

 

This seems to imply that these 2 souls are infinitely chosen as champions of the dark and light. So question 1, where does Ishamael's soul reside between death and rebirth? T'A'R?

 

Ch: 47 The Grave Is No Bar to My Call [/i]from TGH']

Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. “Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day.” Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. “With your permission . . . Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?

 

So the T'A'R holds the heroes of the horn and also is a reflection of the world. The world follows the wheel, in that it repeats its ages infinitely throughout time. These heroes are spun out, as needed by the pattern. So how can the Pattern add a hero to the list of Heroes of the Horn, without that hero already having been a hero in the past? For example, if Hurin truly was added, shouldn't he be added every third age? Does this mean he is removed later on?

 

Ishamael is a lying SOB, and has NEVER battled the CoL before LTT. He was pretending to be the Dark One. Well, Lanfear mentions that she thought, he might think, he actually was the DO. But he is not, was not, and therefore is not anything like a hero of the horn. Just a cocky SOB trying to take Rand off his game.

 

As for your second question, the turnings of the wheel are not identical. So while Hurin's soul has been used a bunch of times, there isn't necessarily always a Hurin every age or turning. But as for heroes, I don't know. Maybe some people do eventually get un-heroed. Because as I think you suggest, if it's true that there are no beginnings, and that the turning of the wheel is infinite, and they occasionally add to the heroes of the horn, well there would be an infinite number of heroes already.

 

Or maybe all the non super-heroes (everyone but the CoL?) gets reset on age zero. Or more practically, your horn contract expires one whole turning from when you are personally inducted.

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I was wondering in what numbers can the DO replicate the Isam/Luc guy. A dozen assassins could hunt down the Heroes of the Horn in TaR, so even if the Light wants to use the HoV, they will just summon fog.

 

 

Also, in one of the book, Demandred(?!?) has to balefire something, or a lot of things. What did he used balefire on? They don't seem to be missing troops/villages/large numbers of people. There would have been rumors about that until now, right?

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Also, in one of the book, Demandred(?!?) has to balefire something, or a lot of things. What did he used balefire on? They don't seem to be missing troops/villages/large numbers of people. There would have been rumors about that until now, right?

 

There is a theory that Demy has been using balefire to unravel the pattern. Notice the similarities between a "balescream" after Rand blasts Natrim and the "ripples" that effect Perrin in his camp and Faile in the Shaido camp. Not sure if it is correct but it is pretty intriguing.

 

"She rippled! It was not imagination. Meira's blue eyes widened as far as they could go; she had felt it, too. Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before. In shock, Faile stood up straight and let go of her robe. A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist." -Ch.5 KoD
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Also, in one of the book, Demandred(?!?) has to balefire something, or a lot of things. What did he used balefire on? They don't seem to be missing troops/villages/large numbers of people. There would have been rumors about that until now, right?

 

There is a theory that Demy has been using balefire to unravel the pattern. Notice the similarities between a "balescream" after Rand blasts Natrim and the "ripples" that effect Perrin in his camp and Faile in the Shaido camp. Not sure if it is correct but it is pretty intriguing.

 

"She rippled! It was not imagination. Meira's blue eyes widened as far as they could go; she had felt it, too. Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before. In shock, Faile stood up straight and let go of her robe. A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist." -Ch.5 KoD

 

 

I remember that part. I was just asking what did he Balefired? There have to be people(threads), because it will not matter to the Pattern if they blow up trees and ruins with Balefire. But they are not missing any people, not in the Randland. Can he do it in another place, like Shara or Seachan mainland? Or do it on Trollocs? Are Shadowspawn considered threads in the Pattern?

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Ishamael is a lying SOB, and has NEVER battled the CoL before LTT.

Actually, both RJ and Brandon have indicated he was telling the truth. RJ verified that the Dragon soul has gone over to the Shadow in the past, and Brandon confirmed that Rand's and Ishamael's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, like Birgitte and Gaidal.

 

Also, Hurin is probably not a Hero. Hawkwing doesn't get to decide who becomes a new one.

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"Brandon confirmed that Rand's and Ishamael's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, like Birgitte and Gaidal."

 

Totes knew Ishy was gay. And the Wondrous Threesome are the biggest beard ever.

I have actually considered writing that fanfic. But I think I have told you that before. The only thing that stops me is the idea that RJ would come back from the dead and kill me slowly for it, but since I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen, I'm tempted to do it anyway. I had that thought before Brandon said that, and so it made me laugh, and it also made me start thinking about how to plot it to make it believable.

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Ishamael is a lying SOB, and has NEVER battled the CoL before LTT.

Actually, both RJ and Brandon have indicated he was telling the truth. RJ verified that the Dragon soul has gone over to the Shadow in the past, and Brandon confirmed that Rand's and Ishamael's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, like Birgitte and Gaidal.

 

Also, Hurin is probably not a Hero. Hawkwing doesn't get to decide who becomes a new one.

 

I understand that Rand has fought the battle many times with the DO. And while I vaguely remember hearing of the Brandon quote (couldn't find it on a quick look), I think that's quite a bit different. Ishy was putting himself across as the DO, and Lanfear does say that she thinks he may have actually thought he was. So while it may be true they are often spun out around the same times, that hardly justifies a statement like, "2 souls are infinitely chosen as champions of the dark and light", which is what I was replying to. Though I will back up a few steps in my certainty.

 

Also, there's no indication that Ishy would actually remember those past lives, which, again, suggests that he's just playing avatar for the DO and speaking with what the DO would be saying.

 

And we never said Hurin was a hero or that Hawkwing was making him one on the spot, but someone/thing chooses, and Hawkwing says that that someone/thing does add to their ranks occasionally. So the question remains, if new souls get added, and there have been infinite (or nearing infinite) turnings, there would be infinite HoHs unless some get 'fired' or 'age out'.

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And we never said Hurin was a hero or that Hawkwing was making him one on the spot, but someone/thing chooses, and Hawkwing says that that someone/thing does add to their ranks occasionally. So the question remains, if new souls get added, and there have been infinite (or nearing infinite) turnings, there would be infinite HoHs unless some get 'fired' or 'age out'.

 

Yeah, this is mainly what I'm stuck on. The only way I can logic my way out of it is, Artur Hawkwing must be mistaken in that statement. But then the counter is, he's been a soul the whole time, so he must know. The infinite repeating of the Wheel of Time can really mess with your head, ya know?

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there's no indication that Ishy would actually remember those past lives, which, again, suggests that he's just playing avatar for the DO and speaking with what the DO would be saying.

No direct indication, but one can assume.

Ishy has a direct line to the DO, same as we saw Demandred. Also, it was indicated that Ishy was not 100% sealed and could 'touch people's minds' -- whisper in their ear as he said. I'd say it's safe to assume who whispered--or screamed--in Ishy's ear during 3000 years of imprisonment as the only person awake and in reach.

3000 years of chatting with the DO. He could've picked up a lot of info in that time. Also, it's a wonder he's coherent enough to function -- his brain should be paste by now. I rather pity him.

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