Mat's Ter'Angreal & Cadsuane

[Lacanos]

I was reading a previous topic that claimed Cadsuane had a ter'angreal that had a similar effect to Mat's foxhead.

Now, this isn't the case.

Setalle Anan says that Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that can disrupt weaves of the power yes. However, this is the ter'angreal Cadsuane uses to break the inverted weave of illusion Semirhage has in Book 11.

 

Does anyone disagree, and if so what evidence is there?

[Winespring Patron]

I was reading a previous topic that claimed Cadsuane had a ter'angreal that had a similar effect to Mat's foxhead.

Now, this isn't the case.

Setalle Anan says that Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that can disrupt weaves of the power yes. However, this is the ter'angreal Cadsuane uses to break the inverted weave of illusion Semirhage has in Book 11.

 

Does anyone disagree, and if so what evidence is there?

 

I agree, I remember her having a Saidar "well" ter'angreal that stored a limited amount of power; didn't she loan that to Nynaeve at Far Madding? I also recall a ter'angreal that could point out the direction of channeling that she used during the Saidin cleansing battle at Shadar Logoth. I don't think she has anything that blocks or neutralizes targeted weaves like Mat's foxhead medallion.

[he who comes with a bong]

one of her fish i do belive disrupts weaves. as she got closer to semi, it reacted by showing who she really was instead of tuon. i think since she has to be a certain distance away it is a type of thing that has to be channeld into to get it to disrupt any type of weave kinda like a canceling effect. beacause mats medallion just stops the weaves comming at him

[Mulk]

I agree, I remember her having a Saidar "well" ter'angreal that stored a limited amount of power; didn't she loan that to Nynaeve at Far Madding?

 

specifically to this, no. Nynaeve has her own Well.

[aaron11]

I was reading a previous topic that claimed Cadsuane had a ter'angreal that had a similar effect to Mat's foxhead.

Now, this isn't the case.

Setalle Anan says that Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that can disrupt weaves of the power yes. However, this is the ter'angreal Cadsuane uses to break the inverted weave of illusion Semirhage has in Book 11.

 

Does anyone disagree, and if so what evidence is there?

 

During the battle of the cleansing of sadin lanfear(cydane) weave fizzled in a similar way to mat's foxhead from nynaeve's ter'angreal, not cadsuane's.

[Suttree]

The e-wot entry on Cadsuane's Paralis Net

 

A set of small ter'angreal and angreal worn in the hair. Cadsuane wears one and it includes golden stars, moons, birds and fish.

Ornaments

 

Intertwined golden crescents - A ter'angreal that grows cool when someone nearby holds saidar.

Eight-pointed star - A ter'angreal that vibrates when there is a man who can channel nearby.

Golden hummingbird - A ter'angreal. It is a Well that can store saidar.

Shrike - A female angreal

Golden swallow - A ter'angreal. It was made during the Breaking specifically to detect a man channeling alone. It detects the direction of saidin or saidar, but does not distinguish between the two and does not tell the distance.

 

References

 

Glimmers Q&A - The golden swallow was made during the Breaking to detect a man channeling alone. Since a man linked to a woman was, by definition, "safe," it does not detect saidin linked to saidar.

TPoD,Ch12 - Cadsuane's hair ornament grows cool when Alanna holds saidar.

WH,Ch34 - Cadsuane uses the saidar in the golden hummingbird to lift the crown off Aleis' head.

WH,Ch35 - Cadsuane uses the shrike to help maintain her shield that protects Rand and Nynaeve.

WH,Ch35 - Cadsuane uses the golden swallow to track the Forsaken as they try to attack. It detects the direction of saidin or saidar, but does not distinguish between the two and does not tell the distance.

CoT,Ch23 - Cadsuane's eight-pointed star vibrates as she nears the courtyard where the Asha'man and Warders are practicing swords.

CoT,Ch24 � Nynaeve's bracelet and rings is a much stronger angreal than Cadsuane's shrike.

KoD,Ch19 � Cadsuane knows when Rand is holding saidin and when he releases.

KoD,Ch27 � One of the ornaments can disrupt weaves at close distance. This breaks Semirhage's disguise as Tuon.

TGS,Ch22 - Semirhage recognizes Cadsuane's hair ornaments as a paralis-net.

ToM,Ch51 - Rand recognizes Cadsuane's hair ornaments as a paralis-net so he knows she has a Well. He tells her that he wore the original male version.

[dexterryu]

I'm a little bummed about this thread... I was hoping it would be an encounter between Cadsuane and Mat. Her trying to teach him manners and having her weaves not affect him, and Mat just being Mat.

[Terez]

I was reading a previous topic that claimed Cadsuane had a ter'angreal that had a similar effect to Mat's foxhead.

Now, this isn't the case.

Setalle Anan says that Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that can disrupt weaves of the power yes. However, this is the ter'angreal Cadsuane uses to break the inverted weave of illusion Semirhage has in Book 11.

 

Does anyone disagree, and if so what evidence is there?

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

For Krassos, yes, a channeler could still channel wearing Mat’s amulet. Cadsuane has one much like it.

The wording accounts for the differences (in both cases).

[a5m]

Intertwined golden crescents - A ter'angreal that grows cool when someone nearby holds saidar.

 

This one is the most likely to be like Mat's foxhead. After all, his also cools when someone nearby hold saidar and grow colder when it's touch by saidar or saidin.

[Winespring Patron]

I agree, I remember her having a Saidar "well" ter'angreal that stored a limited amount of power; didn't she loan that to Nynaeve at Far Madding?

 

specifically to this, no. Nynaeve has her own Well.

 

You are correct, it was my error of memory, but I'm drawing a blank! When and where did Nynaeve get her ter'angreal? It must have been before Far Madding but I can't remember the circumstances???

[Winespring Patron]

I was reading a previous topic that claimed Cadsuane had a ter'angreal that had a similar effect to Mat's foxhead.

Now, this isn't the case.

Setalle Anan says that Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that can disrupt weaves of the power yes. However, this is the ter'angreal Cadsuane uses to break the inverted weave of illusion Semirhage has in Book 11.

 

Does anyone disagree, and if so what evidence is there?

 

During the battle of the cleansing of sadin lanfear(cydane) weave fizzled in a similar way to mat's foxhead from nynaeve's ter'angreal, not cadsuane's.

 

I think this happened because Cyndane was facing a more powerful Alivia, and Alivia simply cut the weave that Cyndane launched at her...

[Suttree]

I agree, I remember her having a Saidar "well" ter'angreal that stored a limited amount of power; didn't she loan that to Nynaeve at Far Madding?

 

specifically to this, no. Nynaeve has her own Well.

 

You are correct, it was my error of memory, but I'm drawing a blank! When and where did Nynaeve get her ter'angreal? It must have been before Far Madding but I can't remember the circumstances???

 

Nynaeve got the bracelet & rings angreal from the stash in Ebou Dar.

[a5m]

I think this happened because Cyndane was facing a more powerful Alivia, and Alivia simply cut the weave that Cyndane launched at her...

 

Cyndane's weaves were inverted and Cyndane was surprised when they unravelled. It was definitely a ter'angreal that did it.

[Lacanos]

I think this happened because Cyndane was facing a more powerful Alivia, and Alivia simply cut the weave that Cyndane launched at her...

 

Cyndane's weaves were inverted and Cyndane was surprised when they unravelled. It was definitely a ter'angreal that did it.

 

 

This effect was presumably due to Nynaeve's ter'angreal that surrounds the wearer in armor. This would both be active in the duration of the cleansing and was mentioned earlier in the book, presumably, so we can draw this exact conclusion.

 

@Terez, what you say makes a lot of sense. I'm still not convinced it's identical to Mat's though, I think that would diminish the "specialness" if you will of Mat's gift from the Ael/Eel. Plus, it would mean Cadsuane (and her buddies) would know how to circumvent it.

[Winespring Patron]

I think this happened because Cyndane was facing a more powerful Alivia, and Alivia simply cut the weave that Cyndane launched at her...

 

Cyndane's weaves were inverted and Cyndane was surprised when they unravelled. It was definitely a ter'angreal that did it.

 

 

This effect was presumably due to Nynaeve's ter'angreal that surrounds the wearer in armor. This would both be active in the duration of the cleansing and was mentioned earlier in the book, presumably, so we can draw this exact conclusion.

 

@Terez, what you say makes a lot of sense. I'm still not convinced it's identical to Mat's though, I think that would diminish the "specialness" if you will of Mat's gift from the Ael/Eel. Plus, it would mean Cadsuane (and her buddies) would know how to circumvent it.

 

I stand corrected, again; after re-reading the relevant passage of Cyndane's POV during the Saidin cleansing battle, it does seem that Nyn's bracelet and ring ter'angreal appears to cancel-out a targeted weave. According to Cyndane's description, her fireball flow "unraveled" before it touched Alivia. However, it should also be noted it is still possible to cut weaves without seeing them, remember Rand did this to Lanfear (and vice versa) in the Stone of Tear. It seems something that only the most powerful channelers can do but Alivia is supposed to be stronger then Nynaeve and that would mean she has Forsaken class Saidar strength without their sophistication.

 

Also noteworthy, is the differences described in the Salidar incident in which Mat manhandled Egwene and she attempted to wrap him in flows of air. Elayne observed that the flows simply "vanished"; while Egwene described it slightly differently, in that "the flows touched him, and melted." It is a subtle but significant difference when compared to the effects of Nyn's ter'angreal but probably a hint that they work on different principles. It would be interesting to observe what would happen if Nyn's ter'angreal were hit by a powerful weave from a channeler using an angreal; would it still provide the same protection? By Cyndane's account her fireball weave, although inverted, was relatively small scale and designed to escape Alivia's detection.

 

On a final note, I think Cadsuane's "weave disrupter" ter'angreal only works on passive weaves such as disguises, illusions, and distortions; otherwise she wouldn't have been so concerned about maintaining (with a linked circle) a shield to protect Nynaeve and Rand at Shadar Logoth.

[Turin Turambar]

I think this happened because Cyndane was facing a more powerful Alivia, and Alivia simply cut the weave that Cyndane launched at her...

 

Cyndane's weaves were inverted and Cyndane was surprised when they unravelled. It was definitely a ter'angreal that did it.

 

 

This effect was presumably due to Nynaeve's ter'angreal that surrounds the wearer in armor. This would both be active in the duration of the cleansing and was mentioned earlier in the book, presumably, so we can draw this exact conclusion.

 

@Terez, what you say makes a lot of sense. I'm still not convinced it's identical to Mat's though, I think that would diminish the "specialness" if you will of Mat's gift from the Ael/Eel. Plus, it would mean Cadsuane (and her buddies) would know how to circumvent it.

It would however make it easier to explain how the finns were able to gift Mat with such a thing.

[Winespring Patron]

I'm a little bummed about this thread... I was hoping it would be an encounter between Cadsuane and Mat. Her trying to teach him manners and having her weaves not affect him, and Mat just being Mat.

 

Don't worry, there still be plenty of drama and sparring. Cad's "disrupter ter'angreal" only affects targets that are actively channeling and since neither Mat nor his foxhead touches the Source he is still protected from her channeling. If Cadsuane pulls an anti-foxhead ter'angreal out of thin air I will be among the first to call "Lame" on the author.

 

Some of these posts remind me of the speculation before KoD about how Perrin could possibly rescue Faile in Malden when his forces were outnumbered nearly 10 to 1 by the Shaido. One popular theory was that Perrin was going to use the Aiel Blacksmith "exemption" and simply walk in, find Faile, and bring her back out without interference from the Shaido. I pointed out how contrived and overly convenient that would be, the ultimate anti-climax. Besides, the Shaido at that point had broken almost every Aiel convention; it would be unrealistic to expect them to allow a hated enemy, easily recognized from Dumai Wells, to stroll in & out of their camp. Proponents of this theory cited a passage in a previous book in which the Shaido specifically allowed blacksmiths to leave Malden while everyone else was taken gai'shain. They insisted that RJ specifically included this info as a hint of what Perrin might do.

[Ogrelin]

wouldn't it be impossible for her to channel if she has a thing like Mats on her body?

[Winespring Patron]

wouldn't it be impossible for her to channel if she has a thing like Mats on her body?

 

No, it would be possible with the one Mat got directly from the Finns. Elayne experimented with Mat's original foxhead while she had it for 3 days to study and found she could still channel while wearing it. However, her "imperfect" copies don't allow the wearer to channel and can be overwhelmed by a strong weave.

[Lacanos]

I'm a little bummed about this thread... I was hoping it would be an encounter between Cadsuane and Mat. Her trying to teach him manners and having her weaves not affect him, and Mat just being Mat.

 

Don't worry, there still be plenty of drama and sparring. Cad's "disrupter ter'angreal" only affects targets that are actively channeling and since neither Mat nor his foxhead touches the Source he is still protected from her channeling. If Cadsuane pulls an anti-foxhead ter'angreal out of thin air I will be among the first to call "Lame" on the author.

 

Some of these posts remind me of the speculation before KoD about how Perrin could possibly rescue Faile in Malden when his forces were outnumbered nearly 10 to 1 by the Shaido. One popular theory was that Perrin was going to use the Aiel Blacksmith "exemption" and simply walk in, find Faile, and bring her back out without interference from the Shaido. I pointed out how contrived and overly convenient that would be, the ultimate anti-climax. Besides, the Shaido at that point had broken almost every Aiel convention; it would be unrealistic to expect them to allow a hated enemy, easily recognized from Dumai Wells, to stroll in & out of their camp. Proponents of this theory cited a passage in a previous book in which the Shaido specifically allowed blacksmiths to leave Malden while everyone else was taken gai'shain. They insisted that RJ specifically included this info as a hint of what Perrin might do.

The point is, if Cadsuane has a ter'angreal with the same effect, after seeing her studying the adam and her mindset with doing so, it's highly likely she'd know every way around such a ter'angreal and probably whoop Mat with several nearby chairs.

[Luckers]

I'd agree that's likely too.

[Winespring Patron]

The point is, if Cadsuane has a ter'angreal with the same effect, after seeing her studying the adam and her mindset with doing so, it's highly likely she'd know every way around such a ter'angreal and probably whoop Mat with several nearby chairs.

 

That’s the best Cadsuane will be able to do, using weaves indirectly against Mat. Any speculation about her being able to neutralize the foxhead effect is a very big jump in reasoning. I haven't seen any sign that Cadsuane has any special ter'angreal talent; either making them or reading them. She just happens to possess some exceedingly rare ones and has learned to use them over the years. Remember, Adeleas and Vandene tried their best to find a weakness or circumvent the foxhead's effect and the best they could do is throwing manure at Mat with the power. Ditto with Elayne, she couldn't find a hole in its protection so she resigned herself to making imperfect copies.

 

I'm betting that a grinning Mat will still be totally protected no matter how infuriated Cad becomes; since Mat could care less about channeling when he has his wit and verbal skills as weapons, he will come out on top. Of course, she could still use Nyn's method and give him a swift quick in the rump, but after her sermons on manners that would hand Mat a "moral" victory.

 

All of this is speculation however, and we will have to RAFO in aMoL to be sure what Cad might do...

[a5m]

Ditto with Elayne, she couldn't find a hole in its protection so she resigned herself to making imperfect copies.

In my opinion, she made an imperfect copy of the foxhead and the twisted stone ring because she needed to be leading a mixed circle to make them correctly.

[Mr Ares]

The point is, if Cadsuane has a ter'angreal with the same effect, after seeing her studying the adam and her mindset with doing so, it's highly likely she'd know every way around such a ter'angreal and probably whoop Mat with several nearby chairs.

 

That’s the best Cadsuane will be able to do, using weaves indirectly against Mat. Any speculation about her being able to neutralize the foxhead effect is a very big jump in reasoning. I haven't seen any sign that Cadsuane has any special ter'angreal talent; either making them or reading them. She just happens to possess some exceedingly rare ones and has learned to use them over the years. Remember, Adeleas and Vandene tried their best to find a weakness or circumvent the foxhead's effect and the best they could do is throwing manure at Mat with the power. Ditto with Elayne, she couldn't find a hole in its protection so she resigned herself to making imperfect copies.

 

I'm betting that a grinning Mat will still be totally protected no matter how infuriated Cad becomes; since Mat could care less about channeling when he has his wit and verbal skills as weapons, he will come out on top. Of course, she could still use Nyn's method and give him a swift quick in the rump, but after her sermons on manners that would hand Mat a "moral" victory.

 

All of this is speculation however, and we will have to RAFO in aMoL to be sure what Cad might do...

I would guess she could use her own verbal skills. She's not an idiot, and it would be most out of character for her to begin with to start trying to slap Mat around with the Power. Also, how much less could Mat care about channeling?