Rand at Maradon

[baalsmistress]

The one aspect of Rand that is frequently overlooked is his nature as the strongest ta'veren in the current age. It's commented that Artur Hawkwing (King Arthur anyone?) was so strongly ta'veren that one could literally see the pattern bend around him, so there is no reason why it wouldn't for Rand. The problem with ta'veren effects is that they are essentially god-like powers. The ability to warp reality simply by being there.

 

I guess one way I look at it is to the creator turning on a torch, and shining the beam through the wheel of time at the universe. The image cast upon the universe is the world. The ta'veren are then like lenses, distorting the pattern around them, but only around them, and utterly unpredictably for them. The creator would have designed the lensing effect when he created their souls originally - thus the ta'veren are the creator's way of "fighting".

 

I also don't see the creator as being an opposed force to the dark one. But rather more of a Eru Ilúvatar/Melkor relationship - ie.

 

Melkor: Ha, look how I destroy your creations

Eru Ilúvatar: Do you not realise that I created you, you have done nothing but play out part of my vision.

 

We have clues about the nature of the madness - for some it causes personality shifts and visions that are not there. For others, it causes them to hear voices in their head - as rand succummed to madness through the books, he increasingly heard a voice he ascribed to LTT. Of course we know that the 2 are one, but perhaps the taint is linking the LTT in the AoL to Rand in the present. Thus both hear voices, both have a sense of their self being invaded, both are fighting an internal struggle. But for LTT, it happened suddenly, in a rushing onslaught as the taint was applied. Imagine you suddenly start hearing a you but not you in your head, talking in a rush, never stopping. In short order that would probably cause some very erratic behaviour. - That is just an idle thought I had once when reading.

 

To address the original question, Rand is clearly exhibits godlike powers - though not in terms of his channelling. Just by his ta'veren nature. There is a difference between saying he has the power to cause godlike effects though, and saying he can control that ability.

 

I don't feel his One Power channelling ability is anything special. He is one of, if not the strongest wielder of the OP that ever lived, but that isn't anything special. Someone has to be most powerful. His ability to use the True Power, does make him something special - as it makes Ishamael something special and all the other potential wielders of it.

 

So I have to vote 3, because though he has godlike abilities, they do not touch on his channelling.

[damandred]

I agree that Rands Godlike powers are a result of ultra-Ta'vereness.

I think Maradon was a result of Rand reaching his full potential in OP strength, plus LTT supreme understanding of the OP, I think its clear that LTT was not just very strong, but, was very skilled.

 

The only point I do find puzzling. The creator, created, the DO?

 

I thought the DO was the creators opposite, the "lord of chaos"

As opposed to the lord of order?

[Suttree]

I think the VoG chapter is describing the Creator intervening.

 

But the Creator says quite clearly "I WILL TAKE NO PART."

 

You say 'quite clearly' as if the voice was 'quite clearly' the Creator. Yet it was not 'quite clearly' the Creator.

 

Well the only other power we have seen talk in caps was the DO and it "quite clearly" wasn't him. I would be open to other suggestions if you have them?

[Tyzack]

I think Maradon was a result of Rand reaching his full potential in OP strength, plus LTT supreme understanding of the OP, I think its clear that LTT was not just very strong, but, was very skilled.

 

Agreed, since after rand says something to the effect of "That was really draining on me; if he (the DO) comes at me now, I will lose." Inferring that he, like others, suffers extreme fatigue at channel vast amounts of the OP.

[Kahsm]

I think the VoG chapter is describing the Creator intervening.

 

But the Creator says quite clearly "I WILL TAKE NO PART."

 

You say 'quite clearly' as if the voice was 'quite clearly' the Creator. Yet it was not 'quite clearly' the Creator.

 

Well the author also "quite clearly" says the creator takes no part.

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

 

Love that answer, even if it's paraphrased. Here's more.

On the question of the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring, and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality. Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

Q: But the Creator does not interfere!

RJ: The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

So you might be able to wiggle out of one or two quotes about it, but it was confirmed over and over that the Creator does not interfere at all. I don't even believe the caps were really the creator talking "live", so to speak. I think it was just a pre-programmed pattern-level-event, like the battle over Falme to tell the CoL he's on his own. A message on his answering machine.

 

That's why theories about the creator imbuing Rand with something that other Dragons never got are extremely suspect (impossible?). You'd think if it were a wheel/pattern mechanism, all the CoLs (LTT included) would have had it. Like "one with the land", we know that LTT also had that one. But he clearly didn't have taint protection... and if the creator is hands-off, then where did Rand get the taint protection? hrm?

 

*cough* from the eye *cough*

[MasterAblar]

The thing is, if he got the protection from the Eye, then he shouldn't have been going mad in the first place. But the breaking down of the barrier between his current life as Rand, and his past life as LTT, granting him LTT's memories, is proof that he was going mad. So the protection must be something he gained recently.

[Kahsm]

The thing is, if he got the protection from the Eye, then he shouldn't have been going mad in the first place. But the breaking down of the barrier between his current life as Rand, and his past life as LTT, granting him LTT's memories, is proof that he was going mad. So the protection must be something he gained recently.

 

Well, one option, is that you can still sneeze even if you got the flu shot. Given how much Rand channels compared to other well and truly nuts channelers, he could just be overloading his "immunity".

 

Though more likely, while the taint likely did cause "life-barrier-degradation" we don't know that the "inoculation", as it was deemed in the other thread, protects against that part of what it does. Obviously it doesn't cure the taint, just deals with the symptoms. Likely, barrier degradation just isn't one it can deal with. To me, Rand has been very much sane. Depressed, sure, stressed, yes, confused, sure, dark? Yes. But he was always rational and focused on his purpose, even if the line between right and wrong in achieving his goals was blurring. But that happens to wall street bankers in the pursuit of money, no one calls them insane... just jackasses.

[Mr Ares]

That's why theories about the creator imbuing Rand with something that other Dragons never got are extremely suspect (impossible?). You'd think if it were a wheel/pattern mechanism, all the CoLs (LTT included) would have had it. Like "one with the land", we know that LTT also had that one. But he clearly didn't have taint protection... and if the creator is hands-off, then where did Rand get the taint protection? hrm?

 

*cough* from the eye *cough*

We know LTT didn't have taint protection. We also know he didn't stick around for a long time after he went mad. We know Rand didn't have taint protection for most of the series. Why drag the Eye into it? For all we know, if LTT had stuck around long enough his taint protection would have kicked in. There is absolutely no evidence of the Eye having anything to do with Rand's sanity or lack of. Oh, and "barrier degradation" is not a symptom of the taint.

[Kahsm]

That's why theories about the creator imbuing Rand with something that other Dragons never got are extremely suspect (impossible?). You'd think if it were a wheel/pattern mechanism, all the CoLs (LTT included) would have had it. Like "one with the land", we know that LTT also had that one. But he clearly didn't have taint protection... and if the creator is hands-off, then where did Rand get the taint protection? hrm?

 

*cough* from the eye *cough*

We know LTT didn't have taint protection. We also know he didn't stick around for a long time after he went mad. We know Rand didn't have taint protection for most of the series. Why drag the Eye into it? For all we know, if LTT had stuck around long enough his taint protection would have kicked in. There is absolutely no evidence of the Eye having anything to do with Rand's sanity or lack of. Oh, and "barrier degradation" is not a symptom of the taint.

 

Sorry, change "taint" protection to "insanity" protection.

[Mr Ares]

That's why theories about the creator imbuing Rand with something that other Dragons never got are extremely suspect (impossible?). You'd think if it were a wheel/pattern mechanism, all the CoLs (LTT included) would have had it. Like "one with the land", we know that LTT also had that one. But he clearly didn't have taint protection... and if the creator is hands-off, then where did Rand get the taint protection? hrm?

 

*cough* from the eye *cough*

We know LTT didn't have taint protection. We also know he didn't stick around for a long time after he went mad. We know Rand didn't have taint protection for most of the series. Why drag the Eye into it? For all we know, if LTT had stuck around long enough his taint protection would have kicked in. There is absolutely no evidence of the Eye having anything to do with Rand's sanity or lack of. Oh, and "barrier degradation" is not a symptom of the taint.

Sorry, change "taint" protection to "insanity" protection.

You can make that change if you prefer. I fail to see how it makes a difference. LTT had no protection, neither did Rand until very late in the day. Had LTT stuck around, his protection might have appeared, as Rand's did.

[aunt_pol]

Ehm, I'm inclined to think Rand's dark aura pre-VOG was becoming visible to Caddy, Tuon etc as a warning of sorts from the Pattern that he was not alright, that he was taking the wrong direction, that something needed doing to get him back on track. Tuon thinks it fairly clearly, IIRC- a part of her wants very much to bend to his will but the darkness scares her and bolsters her own willpower to enable her to resist.

After VOG, the light aura seems to suggest he is once more in alignment with his destiny and the Pattern and I think it might just be that simple. I think his epiphany on Dragonmount about love and its power caused it. Remember when the girls Bonded him, didn't one or more of them speak of the warmth of his love they could feel clearly through the Bond? Min post VOG IIRC is perfectly happy with how he feels, I don't recall her thinking she sensed anything new or foreign from him, just that he felt good and well and a hell of a lot more normal.

[Kahsm]

That's why theories about the creator imbuing Rand with something that other Dragons never got are extremely suspect (impossible?). You'd think if it were a wheel/pattern mechanism, all the CoLs (LTT included) would have had it. Like "one with the land", we know that LTT also had that one. But he clearly didn't have taint protection... and if the creator is hands-off, then where did Rand get the taint protection? hrm?

 

*cough* from the eye *cough*

We know LTT didn't have taint protection. We also know he didn't stick around for a long time after he went mad. We know Rand didn't have taint protection for most of the series. Why drag the Eye into it? For all we know, if LTT had stuck around long enough his taint protection would have kicked in. There is absolutely no evidence of the Eye having anything to do with Rand's sanity or lack of. Oh, and "barrier degradation" is not a symptom of the taint.

Sorry, change "taint" protection to "insanity" protection.

You can make that change if you prefer. I fail to see how it makes a difference. LTT had no protection, neither did Rand until very late in the day. Had LTT stuck around, his protection might have appeared, as Rand's did.

 

That's all true only if you think Rand was, or was going, insane. If not, then you start asking "why didn't he?" And that brings up questions about the real purpose for TEotW, why Aes Sedai had to DIE just to make a big well. What RJ meant about "among other things" when referring to the 'well' etc.

 

So yes, if you think Rand was nutz, then none of what I suggest holds up. But if you don't think a modern diagnosis of clinical depression in someone with every risk factor constitutes a "mystically" induced insanity, then Rand seems pretty sane throughout the books.

[Mr Ares]

I didn't realize hearing voices was a sign of depression.

[Kahsm]

I didn't realize hearing voices was a sign of depression.

 

It's not all that "crazy" when you have memories of true events and information popping out of nowhere. The memories are obviously real, the voice was always Rand, as he said, just presenting the unrecognized memories and thoughts as a different personality (coping mechanism). Mat did similar things before his new memories coalesced completely. That's quite different from LTT killing his family and not being able to recognize that they're dead, or the Asha'man who always saw fades in every shadow.

 

Rand just had to accept that he was LTT and that LTT's life was his own and he didn't need the other personality to cope with the memories anymore. Ta-da.

[Seeker]

I voted #1 as it's the closest to explaining a few things for me.

 

First of all the title of this poll says Rand's abilities "after Maradon" but I think it's clear that the major change happened to Rand at the end of TGS on Dragonmount. Afterwards, causing apples to grow despite the DO's touch on the land simply by being in the area and some other effects he's been having on the land are not something I think another great channeler (Moridin/Isy) could also do. So I don't buy #2 that he doesn't have any special powers above and beyond other channelers and I don't buy #3, I don't think Moridin or anyone else can pull that off.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'd say #1; Rand is a vessel of the Light, and the light (via photosynthesis) is the source of life that makes green things of the land grow. A byproduct of his oneness with the land, and limited/countered by the corruption of the Shadow.

[Mr Ares]

I didn't realize hearing voices was a sign of depression.

 

It's not all that "crazy" when you have memories of true events and information popping out of nowhere. The memories are obviously real, the voice was always Rand, as he said, just presenting the unrecognized memories and thoughts as a different personality (coping mechanism). Mat did similar things before his new memories coalesced completely. That's quite different from LTT killing his family and not being able to recognize that they're dead, or the Asha'man who always saw fades in every shadow.

 

Rand just had to accept that he was LTT and that LTT's life was his own and he didn't need the other personality to cope with the memories anymore. Ta-da.

So Rand identifies a portion of his own mind as another person? Sounds pretty crazy to me. The voice always being Rand if anything is an argument for him being more crazy, not less so. Just because it's a coping mechanism doesn't mean he isn't mentally ill. And Mat was quite different. While I certainly agree that hearing voices is different to killing your family without realising, or seeing Fades in every shadow, or regressing to a childlike state, or believing there are spiders crawling all over you, all that proves is that madness manifests in many ways. And that's leaving aside that word of god and knowledgeable characters in book have identified Rand as a little lacking in the sanity department.

[Gabriel Kross]

The glow hs to do ith the road Rand chose to walk, prior to his realization of LTT and himself being the same he "glowed" darkly several point of views spoke of this Tuon, Cadsuane, Nynaeve and I'm sure others as well the dark around him was significant because he was headed down the path of darkness the light in turn means he was headed down a path of light. the glow in and of itself is just who Rand is, the deciding factor in the battle dark glow means the dark would most likely win, the light glow means the light stands a chance. Also I believe Egwene also comments on the light glow to herself and Perrin sees it in TAR when he sees Rand's transformation even though Rand isn't even in TAR . The Maradon side of this however, we see the workings up to this for several books, the Stone of Tear the lightning is first used by Rand, the death gates he used first in the raid against him in TGS (I think) when trollocs apeared out of no where and attacked the estate he was staying at, the filimented fire strands he first used against Samael from which he actually learned it from in CoS, I believe the weather and ice weaves are the only new weaves he uses probablly from the memories from LTT all the weaves he had previously shown off throughout the series are indead stronger and more precise but not on godlike levels it's just from gaining more knowledge and more power over the years of the story.

 

DF reactions: the thing I forgot above has to do with the light and Darkfriends reactions, if you note any note worthy Darkfriend in the series is noted as having cold emotionless eyes and the glow of light comes after Rand realises he is supposed to live and love (which is an emotion for those of you that didn't know) I think it has more to do with the fact that Rand is exuding such strong emotions now that Darkfriends cannot look at him and it was just that much more potent at Maradon than in Tear because his emotion level was hightened, but I believe this effect on the DFs is ongoing just to a lesser extent when Rand is at a level emotional state

 

 

I chose 3 however because I believe Moridin can produce a similar effect on the DO's side hence why we don't see him actively taking part in anything himself since he has been reborn. Elements of 2 apply as well though, I believe him and Moridin are mirrors of each other and both as powerful as any male channeler can be but the glow is something that is Rand specific.

[XXX]

I didn't realize hearing voices was a sign of depression.

 

It's not all that "crazy" when you have memories of true events and information popping out of nowhere. The memories are obviously real, the voice was always Rand, as he said, just presenting the unrecognized memories and thoughts as a different personality (coping mechanism). Mat did similar things before his new memories coalesced completely. That's quite different from LTT killing his family and not being able to recognize that they're dead, or the Asha'man who always saw fades in every shadow.

 

Rand just had to accept that he was LTT and that LTT's life was his own and he didn't need the other personality to cope with the memories anymore. Ta-da.

 

 

Heard of Multiple personality disorder?..Rand is a classic case.

[Kahsm]

I didn't realize hearing voices was a sign of depression.

 

It's not all that "crazy" when you have memories of true events and information popping out of nowhere. The memories are obviously real, the voice was always Rand, as he said, just presenting the unrecognized memories and thoughts as a different personality (coping mechanism). Mat did similar things before his new memories coalesced completely. That's quite different from LTT killing his family and not being able to recognize that they're dead, or the Asha'man who always saw fades in every shadow.

 

Rand just had to accept that he was LTT and that LTT's life was his own and he didn't need the other personality to cope with the memories anymore. Ta-da.

 

 

Heard of Multiple personality disorder?..Rand is a classic case.

 

It WOULD be a classic case, if the information the personality used wasn't real. Pretty sure people with MPD don't learn shit that happened three thousand years ago and have to fit it into their head somehow.

 

There's a perfectly logical explanation for the voice. Even Rand knows it was always him, he doesn't say "I was insane and now i'm not" he said the voice was ALWAYS him. There's a huge difference. He doesn't say "the voice is gone now". He says, it was always him, it was never actually there. It was just his thoughts that he didn't recognize because he didn't know where the information was coming from. That's why it sometimes felt like LTT was seeing through Rand's eyes. It was Rand reacting with LTT information. Which was sometimes different from Rand reacting with only his information. Even explains the attempted "take overs". Rand knowing what he should be doing instinctively, but not knowing why or how he knows it. Obviously that would frighten him.

 

Like a guy who wakes him from a coma and can play the piano, or speak another language. That shit is freaky.

 

So it is not taint-induced insanity. That is memories-from-nowhere coping mechanism. Call it insanity too if you want, but it's cause is the memories, not the taint. At least not in the same way the taint is expected to cause insanity.

[Mr Ares]

The taint is not "expected" to cause insanity in any particular way, it is only expected to cause insanity. Hence why every case we have seen is different. Rand has another man's memories, and we are told, quite clearly, that this is a rare from of madness. Having a part of his own mind that he identifies as another person is, as I already stated, something which could quite reasonably be called insane. By admitting that LTT was just a voice in Rand's head, you do your argument no favours, as that is tantamount to an admission of Rand's insanity. Saying that Rand is wrong, and that LTT was wrong is actually an argument that would strengthen your case. As it is, Rand is crazy, the only difference is an unusual symptom of having another man's memories as well as his other problems.

[Kahsm]

The taint is not "expected" to cause insanity in any particular way, it is only expected to cause insanity. Hence why every case we have seen is different. Rand has another man's memories, and we are told, quite clearly, that this is a rare from of madness. Having a part of his own mind that he identifies as another person is, as I already stated, something which could quite reasonably be called insane. By admitting that LTT was just a voice in Rand's head, you do your argument no favours, as that is tantamount to an admission of Rand's insanity. Saying that Rand is wrong, and that LTT was wrong is actually an argument that would strengthen your case. As it is, Rand is crazy, the only difference is an unusual symptom of having another man's memories as well as his other problems.

 

Ok, so when he got his "taint protection" why didn't the memories go away? Since apparently they are purely a symptom of the "insanity". Booyeah!

 

I don't doubt that many insane channelers likely hear voices. That's not exactly the same as getting real information they couldn't have otherwise known from those voices. Also, Rand handles his "insanity" quite "sanely". Though I'm not psychiatrist, but it sure doesn't come across like TV schizophrenia.

[Suttree]

I don't doubt that many insane channelers likely hear voices. That's not exactly the same as getting real information they couldn't have otherwise known from those voices. Also, Rand handles his "insanity" quite "sanely". Though I'm not psychiatrist, but it sure doesn't come across like TV schizophrenia.

 

But didn't Semy saying the fact that the voice is real makes the insanity worse?

[Kahsm]

I don't doubt that many insane channelers likely hear voices. That's not exactly the same as getting real information they couldn't have otherwise known from those voices. Also, Rand handles his "insanity" quite "sanely". Though I'm not psychiatrist, but it sure doesn't come across like TV schizophrenia.

 

But didn't Semy saying the fact that the voice is real makes the insanity worse?

 

Possibly, don't have that book with me. But I don't doubt the memories came from the taint. I just don't see how that makes him insane. Insanity tends to be an irrational thing. He has a perfectly rational reason to be hearing a voice. He wasn't about to kill min and elyane and everyone else. He was still fighting for the greater good. As far as we know he wasn't seeing things that weren't there. He wasn't rearranging the face of the earth with his immense power. He was just emotionally 'hardened', but still dead set on his goals.

 

It's possible other MCs get real memories too, but they might also be truly insane as well. The combination may even make it worse.

[Suttree]

I don't doubt that many insane channelers likely hear voices. That's not exactly the same as getting real information they couldn't have otherwise known from those voices. Also, Rand handles his "insanity" quite "sanely". Though I'm not psychiatrist, but it sure doesn't come across like TV schizophrenia.

 

But didn't Semy saying the fact that the voice is real makes the insanity worse?

 

Possibly, don't have that book with me. But I don't doubt the memories came from the taint. I just don't see how that makes him insane. Insanity tends to be an irrational thing. He has a perfectly rational reason to be hearing a voice. He wasn't about to kill min and elyane and everyone else. He was still fighting for the greater good. As far as we know he wasn't seeing things that weren't there. He wasn't rearranging the face of the earth with his immense power. He was just emotionally 'hardened', but still dead set on his goals.

 

It's possible other MCs get real memories too, but they might also be truly insane as well. The combination may even make it worse.

 

Found it...

 

KoD

Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. “He’s insane,” she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min’s knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. “Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be… abrupt.”