Rand at Maradon

[Kahsm]

I can't remember if it has been mentioned before because I come back to this thread randomly but I've had a thought about Rand's super power at Maradon...

 

In one of the books (maybe when Asmodean was training Rand?) I recall a POV that women gain their strength in sort of a parabolic fashion over about 5 years so it is relatively easy to predict what their full strength will be but that men, jump up levels of strength in a haphazard fashion. Could this be the reason for Rand's power boost since VoG?

 

It absolutely could be. And I wouldn't argue that it's not. His destruction of the Choden Kal could very well have "stretched" his abilities. But that doesn't really have any bearing on the poll answer, since he'd still be within a regular man's limits. Thus, Moridin, who has been channeling wwaaaaay longer, would already be at "full strength", Rand would just have caught up at VoG.

[Lisa Campbell]

I can't remember if it has been mentioned before because I come back to this thread randomly but I've had a thought about Rand's super power at Maradon...

 

In one of the books (maybe when Asmodean was training Rand?) I recall a POV that women gain their strength in sort of a parabolic fashion over about 5 years so it is relatively easy to predict what their full strength will be but that men, jump up levels of strength in a haphazard fashion. Could this be the reason for Rand's power boost since VoG?

 

It absolutely could be. And I wouldn't argue that it's not. His destruction of the Choden Kal could very well have "stretched" his abilities. But that doesn't really have any bearing on the poll answer, since he'd still be within a regular man's limits. Thus, Moridin, who has been channeling wwaaaaay longer, would already be at "full strength", Rand would just have caught up at VoG.

 

Well Kael, your comment made me finally decide on my vote which was the second option, thanks. Rand has fought Ishy twice early on and had similar power level back then so by my logic he's surpassed him.

 

That is not to say that with his new body, Moridin now has an equal power up. If Lanfear could have reduced power in her new body as Cyndane, it stands to reason that Ishy's new body has a greater potential.

 

Slightly off topic but what if when the Forsaken get a new body they have to start at said body's lowest level and work their way up again? That could explain the Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear situation...

[Kahsm]

I can't remember if it has been mentioned before because I come back to this thread randomly but I've had a thought about Rand's super power at Maradon...

 

In one of the books (maybe when Asmodean was training Rand?) I recall a POV that women gain their strength in sort of a parabolic fashion over about 5 years so it is relatively easy to predict what their full strength will be but that men, jump up levels of strength in a haphazard fashion. Could this be the reason for Rand's power boost since VoG?

 

It absolutely could be. And I wouldn't argue that it's not. His destruction of the Choden Kal could very well have "stretched" his abilities. But that doesn't really have any bearing on the poll answer, since he'd still be within a regular man's limits. Thus, Moridin, who has been channeling wwaaaaay longer, would already be at "full strength", Rand would just have caught up at VoG.

 

Well Kael, your comment made me finally decide on my vote which was the second option, thanks. Rand has fought Ishy twice early on and had similar power level back then so by my logic he's surpassed him.

 

That is not to say that with his new body, Moridin now has an equal power up. If Lanfear could have reduced power in her new body as Cyndane, it stands to reason that Ishy's new body has a greater potential.

 

Slightly off topic but what if when the Forsaken get a new body they have to start at said body's lowest level and work their way up again? That could explain the Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear situation...

 

I'm not trying to "win the masses", so you should certainly vote what you want. The number of people who support one or the other isn't going to factor into my logic, i'm not randsc.

 

But just so it's all out there. While I do agree it's possible he stretched at VoG, I think it's also possible (if not likely) he was already fully stretched out before VoG. Which would make any potential for stretching irrelevant, he'd already be at his max. And as I suggested in the original post, it's how he uses it that's different now.

[Lisa Campbell]

I can't remember if it has been mentioned before because I come back to this thread randomly but I've had a thought about Rand's super power at Maradon...

 

In one of the books (maybe when Asmodean was training Rand?) I recall a POV that women gain their strength in sort of a parabolic fashion over about 5 years so it is relatively easy to predict what their full strength will be but that men, jump up levels of strength in a haphazard fashion. Could this be the reason for Rand's power boost since VoG?

 

It absolutely could be. And I wouldn't argue that it's not. His destruction of the Choden Kal could very well have "stretched" his abilities. But that doesn't really have any bearing on the poll answer, since he'd still be within a regular man's limits. Thus, Moridin, who has been channeling wwaaaaay longer, would already be at "full strength", Rand would just have caught up at VoG.

 

Well Kael, your comment made me finally decide on my vote which was the second option, thanks. Rand has fought Ishy twice early on and had similar power level back then so by my logic he's surpassed him.

 

That is not to say that with his new body, Moridin now has an equal power up. If Lanfear could have reduced power in her new body as Cyndane, it stands to reason that Ishy's new body has a greater potential.

 

Slightly off topic but what if when the Forsaken get a new body they have to start at said body's lowest level and work their way up again? That could explain the Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear situation...

 

I'm not trying to "win the masses", so you should certainly vote what you want. The number of people who support one or the other isn't going to factor into my logic, i'm not randsc.

 

But just so it's all out there. While I do agree it's possible he stretched at VoG, I think it's also possible (if not likely) he was already fully stretched out before VoG. Which would make any potential for stretching irrelevant, he'd already be at his max. And as I suggested in the original post, it's how he uses it that's different now.

 

You didn't influence my vote, as I said I've been coming back to this thread on occasion unable to decide until your reply. It was more like an affirmation that kinda just clicked it in my mind if that makes sense.

[RAbbott85]

 

That is not to say that with his new body, Moridin now has an equal power up. If Lanfear could have reduced power in her new body as Cyndane, it stands to reason that Ishy's new body has a greater potential.

 

 

It's already been explained that Lanfear/Cyndane's lesser power is attributed to the Finns sucking it out of her. RJ has tied the ability to channel to the soul of the person, not the body - which explains why transmigrated Forsaken can all still channel. Ishy's body is irrelevant.

[Entreri]

Unlikely that Ishamael/Moridin could have pulled off such a feat, given that LTT humbled him several times in AoL. LTT > Ishamael. The Creator's Chosen is always the strongest.

 

Certainly the Light in his mind is new and there is no indication that he can drive DF's mad in AoL, LTT 2.0 has gained new powers/abilities. If Egwene is correct and he could have broken through the shield held by 13 AS, even more evidence. We will see in AMOL.

[RAbbott85]

What if there's a third source? The One Power is tied to the Wheel/Pattern - which is neither good nor evil. The True Power is tied to the DO - which is evil. What if there's a mysterious Third Power tied to the Creator - which is good. That would definitely even out the playing field given the strength of the True Power. Also, if Rand was shielded from Saidin, he would still be able to touch the Third Power (assuming it has similar rules to the True Power). Reaching even farther, maybe the other special thing about Callandor has to do with the Third Power.

[Lisa Campbell]

 

That is not to say that with his new body, Moridin now has an equal power up. If Lanfear could have reduced power in her new body as Cyndane, it stands to reason that Ishy's new body has a greater potential.

 

 

It's already been explained that Lanfear/Cyndane's lesser power is attributed to the Finns sucking it out of her. RJ has tied the ability to channel to the soul of the person, not the body - which explains why transmigrated Forsaken can all still channel. Ishy's body is irrelevant.

 

I thought that explanation was given by posters rather than author but if there are quotes, I'll gladly rescind my opinion that as the Finns drained her too quickly and killed her (which could be a lie they told Moiraine but I don't think they have any need to lie) so her soul transmigrating to new body would have her full strength unlike Moiraine, who was drained slowly and rescued alive but with reduced power.

 

I also recall that although capacity is attached to the soul, the body has to be able to contain that capacity but I could be misconstruing posters rather than facts in this case.

 

Sometimes things like this just become a jumble when posts are flying thick and fast in interrelated threads over many days, especially at 2.40am while I am waiting for my next audiobook installment to download to my iphone so I can listen when I go to bed. The bugger keeps timing out on me which is why I'm still here after a hectic day and another busy one planned for tomorrow.

[Kahsm]

Unlikely that Ishamael/Moridin could have pulled off such a feat, given that LTT humbled him several times in AoL. LTT > Ishamael. The Creator's Chosen is always the strongest.

 

Certainly the Light in his mind is new and there is no indication that he can drive DF's mad in AoL, LTT 2.0 has gained new powers/abilities. If Egwene is correct and he could have broken through the shield held by 13 AS, even more evidence. We will see in AMOL.

 

And yet Aginor claimed he could match LTT stroke for stroke right? So there's conflicting evidence vs your "humbled him several times".

 

What if there's a third source? The One Power is tied to the Wheel/Pattern - which is neither good nor evil. The True Power is tied to the DO - which is evil. What if there's a mysterious Third Power tied to the Creator - which is good. That would definitely even out the playing field given the strength of the True Power. Also, if Rand was shielded from Saidin, he would still be able to touch the Third Power (assuming it has similar rules to the True Power). Reaching even farther, maybe the other special thing about Callandor has to do with the Third Power.

 

Well, we know Naeff could see the weaves Rand was using at Maradon, so while it's possible there's a third power (though I think unlikely), we know Rand was using the OP at Maradon.

 

You could, in theory, argue that he was using both... but that seems like a stretch.

[RAbbott85]

 

That is not to say that with his new body, Moridin now has an equal power up. If Lanfear could have reduced power in her new body as Cyndane, it stands to reason that Ishy's new body has a greater potential.

 

 

It's already been explained that Lanfear/Cyndane's lesser power is attributed to the Finns sucking it out of her. RJ has tied the ability to channel to the soul of the person, not the body - which explains why transmigrated Forsaken can all still channel. Ishy's body is irrelevant.

 

I thought that explanation was given by posters rather than author but if there are quotes, I'll gladly rescind my opinion that as the Finns drained her too quickly and killed her (which could be a lie they told Moiraine but I don't think they have any need to lie) so her soul transmigrating to new body would have her full strength unlike Moiraine, who was drained slowly and rescued alive but with reduced power.

 

I also recall that although capacity is attached to the soul, the body has to be able to contain that capacity but I could be misconstruing posters rather than facts in this case.

 

Sometimes things like this just become a jumble when posts are flying thick and fast in interrelated threads over many days, especially at 2.40am while I am waiting for my next audiobook installment to download to my iphone so I can listen when I go to bed. The bugger keeps timing out on me which is why I'm still here after a hectic day and another busy one planned for tomorrow.

 

It is strongly implied that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear as a result of the Finns draining her.

 

1. "She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger." (WH, Ch 35)

This is Cyndane POV regarding Alivia. It does not say "before she'd changed bodies," it uses the Finns as the comparison.

 

2. In ToM Ch 57, Moiraine explains that she is weaker because she was drained by the Finns and that was what had killed Lanfear. So the Finns obviously drained Lanfear. It seems a small chance that Lanfear being drained is not related to Cyndane being weaker in the OP.

 

Could have sword RJ had said something regarding channeling ability tied to souls, but I can't seem to find it right now.

[MasterAblar]

 

That is not to say that with his new body, Moridin now has an equal power up. If Lanfear could have reduced power in her new body as Cyndane, it stands to reason that Ishy's new body has a greater potential.

 

 

It's already been explained that Lanfear/Cyndane's lesser power is attributed to the Finns sucking it out of her. RJ has tied the ability to channel to the soul of the person, not the body - which explains why transmigrated Forsaken can all still channel. Ishy's body is irrelevant.

 

I thought that explanation was given by posters rather than author but if there are quotes, I'll gladly rescind my opinion that as the Finns drained her too quickly and killed her (which could be a lie they told Moiraine but I don't think they have any need to lie) so her soul transmigrating to new body would have her full strength unlike Moiraine, who was drained slowly and rescued alive but with reduced power.

 

I also recall that although capacity is attached to the soul, the body has to be able to contain that capacity but I could be misconstruing posters rather than facts in this case.

 

Sometimes things like this just become a jumble when posts are flying thick and fast in interrelated threads over many days, especially at 2.40am while I am waiting for my next audiobook installment to download to my iphone so I can listen when I go to bed. The bugger keeps timing out on me which is why I'm still here after a hectic day and another busy one planned for tomorrow.

 

It is strongly implied that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear as a result of the Finns draining her.

 

1. "She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger." (WH, Ch 35)

This is Cyndane POV regarding Alivia. It does not say "before she'd changed bodies," it uses the Finns as the comparison.

 

2. In ToM Ch 57, Moiraine explains that she is weaker because she was drained by the Finns and that was what had killed Lanfear. So the Finns obviously drained Lanfear. It seems a small chance that Lanfear being drained is not related to Cyndane being weaker in the OP.

 

Could have sword RJ had said something regarding channeling ability tied to souls, but I can't seem to find it right now.

 

She is weaker. It's why some of the Forsaken were unsure whether or not she was Lanfear.

[MasterAblar]

Unlikely that Ishamael/Moridin could have pulled off such a feat, given that LTT humbled him several times in AoL. LTT > Ishamael. The Creator's Chosen is always the strongest.

 

Certainly the Light in his mind is new and there is no indication that he can drive DF's mad in AoL, LTT 2.0 has gained new powers/abilities. If Egwene is correct and he could have broken through the shield held by 13 AS, even more evidence. We will see in AMOL.

 

And yet Aginor claimed he could match LTT stroke for stroke right? So there's conflicting evidence vs your "humbled him several times".

 

 

Why would the result of a battle between LTT and Aginor be conflicting evidence of results of battles between LTT and Ishamael. Aginor claims he matched LTT in one battle. Good for him. Ishamael says that LTT beat him at the gates of PD, and humbled him in the Hall of Servants (which I've always taken to be more of a verbal humiliation, rather than a physical beatdown, but that's just me). One does not negate the other.

[RAbbott85]

She is weaker. It's why some of the Forsaken were unsure whether or not she was Lanfear.

 

Understood. The point being contested is whether she was weaker as a result of the Finns or her new body.

[MasterAblar]

She is weaker. It's why some of the Forsaken were unsure whether or not she was Lanfear.

 

Understood. The point being contested is whether she was weaker as a result of the Finns or her new body.

 

Sorry, read too fast.

 

I would say it's because of the Finns. There's the quotes you gave and also the simple fact that neither Moridin, Arangar, or Osangar, are any weaker than they were in their previous bodies.

[RAbbott85]

So, I think we can agree that Zen Rand has more strength or a new ability or SOMETHING. But the real question - the one that keeps me up at night - is how would Zen Rand fare in a contest with Neo from the Matrix. Or Goku. Or, dare I say, the US Coast Guard??? Tough questions...

[Kahsm]

Unlikely that Ishamael/Moridin could have pulled off such a feat, given that LTT humbled him several times in AoL. LTT > Ishamael. The Creator's Chosen is always the strongest.

 

Certainly the Light in his mind is new and there is no indication that he can drive DF's mad in AoL, LTT 2.0 has gained new powers/abilities. If Egwene is correct and he could have broken through the shield held by 13 AS, even more evidence. We will see in AMOL.

 

And yet Aginor claimed he could match LTT stroke for stroke right? So there's conflicting evidence vs your "humbled him several times".

 

 

Why would the result of a battle between LTT and Aginor be conflicting evidence of results of battles between LTT and Ishamael. Aginor claims he matched LTT in one battle. Good for him. Ishamael says that LTT beat him at the gates of PD, and humbled him in the Hall of Servants (which I've always taken to be more of a verbal humiliation, rather than a physical beatdown, but that's just me). One does not negate the other.

 

He suggested that because of those "instances" LTT must have been VASTLY stronger than Ishy. I suggested there is another instance where Aginor claims he's at least equal to LTT. So then Aginor must be VASTLY stronger than Ishy? It's not MY "logic"... don't look at me, I was just following along.

 

Edit: put logic in quotes

[The_Chosen_Rule]

I'm re-reading ToM now, and just finished this chapter earlier today...I started thinking about this. I wonder if Rand has now been able to combine his strength with that of LTT, giving him the strength of BOTH the two strongest (probably) male channelers of all time. Now he can do things that no other channeler has ever been able to do, thus giving him the strength to face the Dark One.

 

I may be way off, but there hasn't been any evidence anywhere else in the series of anything but a circle or someone with a super powerful sa'angreal being able to do what he did at Maradon.

[damandred]

Rand is LTT and LTT is Rand, the same soul, same power. LTT and Rands power are one and the same.

For a while he had two personalities but that was only a result of madness off the tain. I picture it like a schitzophrenic in the real world.

[The_Chosen_Rule]

Rand is LTT and LTT is Rand, the same soul, same power. LTT and Rands power are one and the same.

For a while he had two personalities but that was only a result of madness off the tain. I picture it like a schitzophrenic in the real world.

 

They have the same soul, but they aren't the same person. Up until recently, Rand was fighting this dual nature. He is a special case in all the reincarnations spun out by the wheel in that he REMEMBERS everything about LTT's life and experience. The fight between his two personalities may have been a product of the taint, but he actually has a dual personality...unlike every other reincarnated spirit. After his catharsis, he is able to fully integrate LTT into himself...or accept that Rand is LTT, or that LTT is Rand, or that they're some odd amalgam...however you prefer to look at it. Regardless, if the Creator would allow a reincarnated soul (the soul of His chosen champion for all eternity) to retain its memories from a previous spinning-out, who's to say He wouldn't allow that soul to double its strength with the One Power?

 

Like I said, it's a theory, but simply saying Rand and LTT are the same soul doesn't really disprove it...especially when everything else about the LTT/Rand reincarnation flies in the face of every other reincarnation EVER.

[dwn]

Rand is LTT and LTT is Rand, the same soul, same power. LTT and Rands power are one and the same.

For a while he had two personalities but that was only a result of madness off the tain. I picture it like a schitzophrenic in the real world.

 

They have the same soul, but they aren't the same person. Up until recently, Rand was fighting this dual nature. He is a special case in all the reincarnations spun out by the wheel in that he REMEMBERS everything about LTT's life and experience. The fight between his two personalities may have been a product of the taint, but he actually has a dual personality...unlike every other reincarnated spirit. After his catharsis, he is able to fully integrate LTT into himself...or accept that Rand is LTT, or that LTT is Rand, or that they're some odd amalgam...however you prefer to look at it. Regardless, if the Creator would allow a reincarnated soul (the soul of His chosen champion for all eternity) to retain its memories from a previous spinning-out, who's to say He wouldn't allow that soul to double its strength with the One Power?

 

Like I said, it's a theory, but simply saying Rand and LTT are the same soul doesn't really disprove it...especially when everything else about the LTT/Rand reincarnation flies in the face of every other reincarnation EVER.

 

According to Semirhage, Rand isn't a special case. Hearing a voice that includes snippets from a past life was a known form of madness in the AoL. Birgitte also, though her 'rebirth' was unusual, remembers her past lives.

 

In the WoT cosmology there is clearly a psychological/spiritual barrier that normally keeps past life memories from intruding on a person's conscious thoughts. In Rand's case that barrier was breaking down as part of his madness; in Birgitte's case it has been slowly reforming since she was ripped out of T'A'R.

 

-- dwn

[2RiversFan]

 

 

 

 

The_Chosen_Rule, on 23 October 2011 - 06:22 AM, said:

 

 

 

damandred, on 22 October 2011 - 09:32 PM, said:

 

 

Rand is LTT and LTT is Rand, the same soul, same power. LTT and Rands power are one and the same.

For a while he had two personalities but that was only a result of madness off the tain. I picture it like a schitzophrenic in the real world.

 

 

 

They have the same soul, but they aren't the same person. Up until recently, Rand was fighting this dual nature. He is a special case in all the reincarnations spun out by the wheel in that he REMEMBERS everything about LTT's life and experience. The fight between his two personalities may have been a product of the taint, but he actually has a dual personality...unlike every other reincarnated spirit. After his catharsis, he is able to fully integrate LTT into himself...or accept that Rand is LTT, or that LTT is Rand, or that they're some odd amalgam...however you prefer to look at it. Regardless, if the Creator would allow a reincarnated soul (the soul of His chosen champion for all eternity) to retain its memories from a previous spinning-out, who's to say He wouldn't allow that soul to double its strength with the One Power?

 

Like I said, it's a theory, but simply saying Rand and LTT are the same soul doesn't really disprove it...especially when everything else about the LTT/Rand reincarnation flies in the face of every other reincarnation EVER.

 

 

According to Semirhage, Rand isn't a special case. Hearing a voice that includes snippets from a past life was a known form of madness in the AoL. Birgitte also, though her 'rebirth' was unusual, remembers her past lives.

 

In the WoT cosmology there is clearly a psychological/spiritual barrier that normally keeps past life memories from intruding on a person's conscious thoughts. In Rand's case that barrier was breaking down as part of his madness; in Birgitte's case it has been slowly reforming since she was ripped out of T'A'R.

 

-- dwn

 

I think the VoG chapter is describing the Creator intervening. Watching Rand, you know he has hit rock-bottom, doesn't know where to turn and is in utter despair and disgust with himself. It doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to know the Creator would be aware of this. Nyneave's discovery of white protective coverings on the darkness (madness) in his brain is all the proof needed (IMO) to show that the Creator intervened. Couple that with his influence on the land suddenly becoming a positive thing, no longer being blind to darkfriends (actually driving them insane now)... etc.

 

The Creator's champion was also given LTTs memories to keep, thereby allowing him to reach his full potential - becoming exponentially more proficient with his strength in the power. Maradon was the demonstration of this newly acquired proficiency, not an increase in power. Proficiency is what Lanfear was talking about when she told him that he was only using 10% of his ability in the Great Hunt through the Shadow Rising.

 

Of course, these are only my opinions...

[Suttree]

I think the VoG chapter is describing the Creator intervening.

 

But the Creator says quite clearly "I WILL TAKE NO PART."

[2RiversFan]

But the Creator says quite clearly "I WILL TAKE NO PART."

 

I don't remember that. Where is that said? I'm not doubting you, just don't remember it.

[damandred]

But the Creator says quite clearly "I WILL TAKE NO PART."

 

I don't remember that. Where is that said? I'm not doubting you, just don't remember it.

 

 

Its in the EotW. Just before Rands confrontation with Ishmael.

[Hadilmir]

I think the VoG chapter is describing the Creator intervening.

 

But the Creator says quite clearly "I WILL TAKE NO PART."

 

You say 'quite clearly' as if the voice was 'quite clearly' the Creator. Yet it was not 'quite clearly' the Creator.