Ta'veren and Sub-Ta'veren?

[Kahsm]

But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes

the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to

swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make

the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The

Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole

Pattern.

 

So Loial's description of how Ta'veren affect the pattern is a little more detailed than Moiraine's, but they are not different. Loial simply points out that a Ta'veren pulls the threads around him, but then continues to explain that those threads can then pull the ones around them and so on in an outward spiral. But he specifically notes that the first bending (only the first bending) is "Ta'veren".

 

So my question is, does this make those threads in the second bending special? Does being bent by Ta'veren imbue the bent thread with temporary bending powers of those around them, and then can that third-tier thread bend those around it, in an ever decreasing amount of pull, based on the strength of the original bend? This would make the whirlpool in the pattern Loial describes.

 

The other option is that the threads around a regular, every-day thread are always entwined together by varying degrees. If a Ta'veren were to pull on a particular thread, all those normally entwined with it would also be tugged, and then those entwined with the third-tier thread would be similarly pulled based on how tightly they are woven together. This would make a very ugly whirlpool because the linkages would not be consistent at all. An example of this though might be Gaidal and Birgitte. If a Ta'veren were to pull Birgitte off her normal path right before she was supposed to meet Gaidal, would he also be pulled so that they still meet even if he's not actually in the Ta'veren's influence?

 

Or of course the answer could be both.. which would make the nice whirlpool but also shift things across the whole pattern.

 

The point of this question is regarding our non Ta'veren heroes:

 

"I suppose there isn't any choice for Egwene or me, either," Nynaeve said.

Moiraine nodded. "You are part of the Pattern, too, both of you, in some fashion. Perhaps not ta'veren –

perhaps - but strong even so.

 

Specifically Egwene (of course, who else?!) and the stupidity of Aes Sedai in how she gets her way. Generally I believe this is just how the WOT universe works, dumb Aes Sedai is a similar parallel to the underwhelming forsaken. And how (I think) Luckers explains the dumbing down of others for the benefit of the heroes.

 

However, I thought Sub-Ta'veren might be a viable explanation given how long Egwene and Nynaeve (not so much Elayne, though maybe on the pattern they are closer than they are physically) are near all 3 boys.

[Leyrann]

I like it.

 

About the epic fail of the Forsaken, maybe it's because Mat now has the Dark One's luck...

[coolpool]

i've always thought siular to you, but u've described it beautifully like.. as in people close to the taveren in personal ways, eg elayne or egewene, were strong threads that sometime twist the pattern slightly themselves because they are important to the sucsess of the light at last battle, and it seemed people who new rand/mat/perin the longest or were important to the taveren's were more lucky etc and had more of a influencial pull about them..

[Xcorpyo001]

[joke]

I think you are wrong.

Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand and will most likely die in a couple of days/weeks, Perrin almost lost his soul and became a wolf(he'll probably die as well as stated in the dark prophecies).

And in the end they ended up leading several thousands soldiers each.

Egwene broke all the rules of the WT, jumped several steps in the hierarchy and became the most powerful person in the Randland, bar the Seachan(but there's time for that yet). And the price for everything was several spanking session(which she actually seemed to enjoy...maybe some masochistic tendencies?!?)

I think Egwene is the only true Ta'veren and the guys have their way sometimes because they were near Egwene.

Siuan didn't saw it because it was so intense it would have cause her instant blindness, and the Pattern took pity on the poor girl.

So the Ta'vereness of the guys is just a echo of Egwene's own super Ta'verene nature. THe DO will not see her coming.[/joke]

 

 

But you are making an excellent point. Everybody who stood near Rand&co had some boost in their luck.

Especially Loial and Egwene.

[Leyrann]

[joke]

I think you are wrong.

Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand and will most likely die in a couple of days/weeks, Perrin almost lost his soul and became a wolf(he'll probably die as well as stated in the dark prophecies).

And in the end they ended up leading several thousands soldiers each.

Egwene broke all the rules of the WT, jumped several steps in the hierarchy and became the most powerful person in the Randland, bar the Seachan(but there's time for that yet). And the price for everything was several spanking session(which she actually seemed to enjoy...maybe some masochistic tendencies?!?)

I think Egwene is the only true Ta'veren and the guys have their way sometimes because they were near Egwene.

Siuan didn't saw it because it was so intense it would have cause her instant blindness, and the Pattern took pity on the poor girl.

So the Ta'vereness of the guys is just a echo of Egwene's own super Ta'verene nature. THe DO will not see her coming.[/joke]

 

ROLFMAO...

[Kahsm]

Just to add a clarification.

 

The sub-Ta'veren would not actually be Ta'veren in that they could influence thigns for themselves in the way the original Ta'veren can. It would be a continuation of the original bend, just less powerful. So whatever extra pull our non-ta'veren heroes have would have to be helpful to rand, and as a result of something he consciously, or subconsciously, imbued upon them (there needs to be an original bend).

 

For example Rand says this to Egwene at their WT meeting:

 

"Egwene," Rand said, voice echoing in the chamber. He nodded to her, as if in respect. "You have done your part, I see. The Amyrlin's stole fits you well."

 

So given Rand feels he needed her to be Amyrlin, he bent Egwene that way, and therefore Egwene would bend others towards that same goal without needing Rand around.

[cmsnaith]

This theory sounds good. I like it.

 

I had always wondered about the Ta'veren. I couldn't think of any mentioned in the story, or the story's history, that were female. It seemed to me that all the Ta'veren in history were male. This struck me as odd. I wondered if maybe they were recognized as Ta'veren because their effect on the Pattern was more clear. If one considers the nature of Saidin, and how male channelers gain control, I wondered if there were male and female Ta'veren, but only males had been recognized Ta'veren because their influence on the Pattern was more violently obvious. Saidin is more subtle, and calm, and requires surrender. This is a counterpart to the raging violence of Saidin, which requires the male channeler to wrestle with it and take hold of it. I had wondered if maybe female Ta'veren had a more subtle influence on the Pattern, and recognition of it required a more perceptive scrutiny.

 

I thought that perhaps this could have accounted for Egwene's rise and ability. Likewise, I thought that it may have also accounted for Fortuona's "fortune." She was the only surviving member of the Crystal Throne, who happens to wed a Ta'veren, who also happened to be on the right side of the Aryth Ocean for the Seanchan prophecy (of Rand kneeling to the throne) to come to pass, who also incredibly resisted the influence of the most powerful Ta'veren ever (which I could never just chalk up to her having a strong will).

 

But the theory posted above has a more direct support than mine.

[David Selig]

There's a mention of a historical example of a female Ta'veren - Mabriam en Shereed, http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/mabriam.html

[cmsnaith]

See, there you go. I knew someone would present an obscure reference of a female ta'veren. Thank you David. =]

[Alric]

The ta'veren status is given to a person when needed by the Pattern. The Pattern would then be satisfied as the ta'veren would do what is needed - or rather cause what is needed to happen. In extraordinary cases, more than one person is given the status if the first can not cause everything needed to happen. Either one is enough, or there will be two (or three as in the case of the Two Rivers). There seems to be no need for "sub-ta'veren" the way I interpret the books.

 

The persons around the ta'veren are merely "tools" and they are not critical. That does not diminish their role or their importance, if anything they achieve things without being singled out by the pattern like the ta'veren (who usually always aquire some kind of legendary status). And some times people do great things without being ta'veren nor being close to one. I don't think that there's anything special to those close to a ta'veren. Egwene would be no more "special" in this sense than the citywomen who kept bumping into each other a bunch of times in Cairhien just because Rand was in town.

[Kahsm]

The ta'veren status is given to a person when needed by the Pattern. The Pattern would then be satisfied as the ta'veren would do what is needed - or rather cause what is needed to happen. In extraordinary cases, more than one person is given the status if the first can not cause everything needed to happen. Either one is enough, or there will be two (or three as in the case of the Two Rivers). There seems to be no need for "sub-ta'veren" the way I interpret the books.

 

The persons around the ta'veren are merely "tools" and they are not critical. That does not diminish their role or their importance, if anything they achieve things without being singled out by the pattern like the ta'veren (who usually always aquire some kind of legendary status). And some times people do great things without being ta'veren nor being close to one. I don't think that there's anything special to those close to a ta'veren. Egwene would be no more "special" in this sense than the citywomen who kept bumping into each other a bunch of times in Cairhien just because Rand was in town.

 

Well I sort of agree with you. I'm not saying she's special or chosen in any way by the pattern. The difference between Egwene and some random city dweller is that Rand doesn't require anything from that random city dweller, so for them he's just messing with chance. But from Egwene he may need her to be Amyrlin, and therefore she gets imbued by his Ta'veren nature to then bend others in the same direction (towards her being Amyrlin).

 

So those who voted for her did not do so because of Egwene's sub-ta'veren-ness, they did so because of Rand's Taveren-ness on Egwene.

 

If you still disagree that there's no Ta'veren pull at all while Rand isn't around, do you disagree with Loial's description? Or do you have another interpretation to explain his multi-leveled bendings?

[Alric]

But from Egwene he may need her to be Amyrlin, and therefore she gets imbued by his Ta'veren nature to then bend others in the same direction (towards her being Amyrlin).

 

This will get philosophical very quickly , BUT I think that the Amyrlin would need to be influenced by ta'veren for everything to work out, that is why someone close to Rand ended up being raised. It is simply a more efficient solution for the Pattern than to create another ta'veren around Siuan or Elaida or whoever it would be. There is some kind of limitation to how much one ta'veren can influence events, at least I think this is proven by the fact that we "need" three in the Two Rivers.

 

So those who voted for her did not do so because of Egwene's sub-ta'veren-ness, they did so because of Rand's Taveren-ness on Egwene.

 

Yep, if they were influenced, that would be because Rand had influenced Egwene to have the attitude and background needed for consideration. But it could also be that the Pattern merely made sure that they were born in the same village so that Rand could more easily influence the eventual Amyrlin (not necessarily to convince her in any way but for the ta'veren effect to influence her).

 

 

If you still disagree that there's no Ta'veren pull at all while Rand isn't around, do you disagree with Loial's description? Or do you have another interpretation to explain his multi-leveled bendings?

I think he is just describing the ripples that come from any action, ta'veren or not. I'm sure some of the results from these ripples are important in to the Pattern, even the pulls that go through several people, but we would just never realize or see it. In many cases we can't even tell which events are important and which are not. And from there to try to guess which of Egwene's (or Moiraine or Nynaeve or anyone's) actions are their own or are indeed "forced" by the Pattern through a ta'veren is a hopeless guessing game. We hardly even know what the Pattern's goals are, so I would be very careful about dismissing anything achieved by non-ta'veren as "luck" or as none of their own doing.

 

My head hurts...

 

 

 

[rand4747]

When a taverin forces someone in the pattern into somewhere else, that person would need to displace whoever was there already and that person the next sort of thing so that sort of how the wave travels. So he wants her to be Amyrlyn but in order for that to happen you need to push everything thats in the way of that happening out, so get rid of old Amyrlins, rivals or anything or make them become engaged with something else, anything to get her into what he wanted. To be Amyrlin she needs support so the way he forces her through the pattern forces yet others to weave with that and so support her. There may then be something hindering that which will be changed to fit around it.

[Kahsm]

When a taverin forces someone in the pattern into somewhere else, that person would need to displace whoever was there already and that person the next sort of thing so that sort of how the wave travels. So he wants her to be Amyrlyn but in order for that to happen you need to push everything thats in the way of that happening out, so get rid of old Amyrlins, rivals or anything or make them become engaged with something else, anything to get her into what he wanted. To be Amyrlin she needs support so the way he forces her through the pattern forces yet others to weave with that and so support her. There may then be something hindering that which will be changed to fit around it.

 

Well you're suggesting that a ta'veren can influence anything in the world. Like Rand could say "I need the seanchan to give up fighting and go home" then on the other side of Randland Tuon would perk up and be like "You know, we should just go home." I don't see that happening. The Ta'veren needs to be nearby someone to make that first bend. And then that person will make the subsequent bends in the direction the Ta'veren needs. That also gives it the iterative feel that Loil describes instead of just everything across the pattern shifting at once into the right configuration.

 

I agree that things like that do happen, like Taim falling from his horse when Rand proclaims himself above Falme. But that's just the wheel weaving as it wills. Not Ta'veren effect.

[rand4747]

When a taverin forces someone in the pattern into somewhere else, that person would need to displace whoever was there already and that person the next sort of thing so that sort of how the wave travels. So he wants her to be Amyrlyn but in order for that to happen you need to push everything thats in the way of that happening out, so get rid of old Amyrlins, rivals or anything or make them become engaged with something else, anything to get her into what he wanted. To be Amyrlin she needs support so the way he forces her through the pattern forces yet others to weave with that and so support her. There may then be something hindering that which will be changed to fit around it.

 

Well you're suggesting that a ta'veren can influence anything in the world. Like Rand could say "I need the seanchan to give up fighting and go home" then on the other side of Randland Tuon would perk up and be like "You know, we should just go home." I don't see that happening. The Ta'veren needs to be nearby someone to make that first bend. And then that person will make the subsequent bends in the direction the Ta'veren needs. That also gives it the iterative feel that Loil describes instead of just everything across the pattern shifting at once into the right configuration.

 

I agree that things like that do happen, like Taim falling from his horse when Rand proclaims himself above Falme. But that's just the wheel weaving as it wills. Not Ta'veren effect.

 

 

The strength of the Taverin effect is probably greater closer to people and affects people further who have been close to him. He also cant consiously control most of it and that which he does he likely has to be close to do.

[a_lily_in_winter]

Sounds reasonable to me. Remember in tGH while in Falme right before Mat blew the horn, Rand felt that several threads that were important to him were in danger. (Most likely that included, Egwene, Elayne, and Min since they were all drawn to him.)

 

Further, there were any number of ta'veren events that happened to Elayne and Nynaeve when they were together. (One particular example, in Tanchico is that they are having trouble finding the BA until three sources come all at once; further where ever Nynaeve and Elayne went chaos erupted soon after. Much like happened to Rand early in the series.

 

Further, Elayne troubles with the BA in Caemlyn both included two cases of extreme bad luck. (What was the chance that she would interrogate the BA at the same time as they were breaking free?) The pattern for some reason wanted Caemlyn sacked and Elayne came too close to stopping that.

 

Other people had already pointed out how ta'veren like effects seem to happen around Egwene, even when Rand is not there. The same is often true for Nynaeve. (Witness how she moved the borderlands to support Lan, or the birds that spooked Moggy when she tried to BF Nynaeve.

 

None of these are ta'veren they are merely the second level of threads that turn still other threads and are not the first turning. But in a real sense the distinction isn't that important, since they can have a huge effect on the pattern as well. For every well established ta'veren effect done by one of the ta'veren, I can point out something similar that happened to our 'sub-taveren' The only exception, that I can think of is having someone say one thing that they normally wouldn't. It has happened to Mat at least once and Rand at least twice, but I can't think of anything similar happen for any of the 'sub-taveren'.

[OptimusPrime]

There's a mention of a historical example of a female Ta'veren - Mabriam en Shereed, http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/mabriam.html

 

Im sure Suian said she felt as if the Pattern was pushing her towards becoming Amyrlin. Could she have been Ta'veren for a time?

[rand4747]

The secondarys are not Ta'verin because they don't force the pattern, instead its forced to go around them by someone else or something else. The needs of the pattern or of the Ta'verin.

Although the Ta'Verin have a limited control over the pattern but they do have control.

[balefired-ed2]

[joke]

I think you are wrong.

Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand and will most likely die in a couple of days/weeks, Perrin almost lost his soul and became a wolf(he'll probably die as well as stated in the dark prophecies).

And in the end they ended up leading several thousands soldiers each.

Egwene broke all the rules of the WT, jumped several steps in the hierarchy and became the most powerful person in the Randland, bar the Seachan(but there's time for that yet). And the price for everything was several spanking session(which she actually seemed to enjoy...maybe some masochistic tendencies?!?)

I think Egwene is the only true Ta'veren and the guys have their way sometimes because they were near Egwene.

Siuan didn't saw it because it was so intense it would have cause her instant blindness, and the Pattern took pity on the poor girl.

So the Ta'vereness of the guys is just a echo of Egwene's own super Ta'verene nature. THe DO will not see her coming.[/joke]

 

 

But you are making an excellent point. Everybody who stood near Rand&co had some boost in their luck.

Especially Loial and Egwene.

 

A bit OT, Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand, and Perrin is lame.

[Kaznen]

Nyn didn't move the borderlanders, she moved the Malkri refugees into action, and the Malkri have been waiting for Lan to raise the Golden Crane since he was old enough to do so. And if Nyn was killed by Moggy, Rand would have been screwed down the line. Aside from the channeling help she was the only one Dark Rand would listen to or talk to.

 

But I think Egwene is were she is because of Rand, and to a lesser extant Mat. I'm most looking forward to her and Perrin meeting and her up against all three at once. (Mat and Perrin are both about Hawkwings strength in ta'verenness but Rand out shines them.)

[Kahsm]

[joke]

I think you are wrong.

Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand and will most likely die in a couple of days/weeks, Perrin almost lost his soul and became a wolf(he'll probably die as well as stated in the dark prophecies).

And in the end they ended up leading several thousands soldiers each.

Egwene broke all the rules of the WT, jumped several steps in the hierarchy and became the most powerful person in the Randland, bar the Seachan(but there's time for that yet). And the price for everything was several spanking session(which she actually seemed to enjoy...maybe some masochistic tendencies?!?)

I think Egwene is the only true Ta'veren and the guys have their way sometimes because they were near Egwene.

Siuan didn't saw it because it was so intense it would have cause her instant blindness, and the Pattern took pity on the poor girl.

So the Ta'vereness of the guys is just a echo of Egwene's own super Ta'verene nature. THe DO will not see her coming.[/joke]

 

 

But you are making an excellent point. Everybody who stood near Rand&co had some boost in their luck.

Especially Loial and Egwene.

 

A bit OT, Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand, and Perrin is lame.

 

^^ This is awesome. I may change my sig to this... yes... yes i will.

[Vermillion]

Actually, I always took the rise of young people around Rand either befriending people in important places or forced friends important places was part of the pattern setting things up for him in extension. They are kind of sub-ta'veren but the ta'veren like things are Rand's doing indirectly. Perrin and Mat don't seem to cause the same kind of thing rise to power just usually effect people directly.