Mat's luck is the Dark One's

[Leyrann]

I just read that RJ said that once. And now I wonder what it means. Does anyone has ideas?

 

I don't have the exact quote right now, but I'm looking for it. I'll post it as soon as I find it.

[Leyrann]

I got the quote, so here it is:

 

(I've underlined the important part)

 

Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal6 out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

Question Part 2: In that case, what was Lanfear doing?

Jordan: She was checking his health. She doesn't care very much, except that he is important to Rand, to Lews Therin, him and Perrin both, so she is interested in, the one she wants mainly is Lews Therin, or wanted anyway, and uh, so she is interested in these other two ta'veren, who seemed to be tied in with him, because they might be important to him.

 

So we already know it was not a gift from Lanfear...

 

Talking about that, do we know for sure it was Lanfear? Except that Robert Jordan said it here?

[Hybrid]

Before TGS, this was a hotly debated topic -- there's a thread here called "Mat's Luck and Channeling." The top two leading theories were ta'veren and the dagger from Shadar Logoth.

 

I'm not sure how the matter stands after TGS, with Verin's comment supporting the ta'veren theory.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

plus, try the searchbox up-top, except use it on the forum page instead of in-topic. and you will find many discussions as noted.

[Leyrann]

Before TGS, this was a hotly debated topic -- there's a thread here called "Mat's Luck and Channeling." The top two leading theories were ta'veren and the dagger from Shadar Logoth.

 

They both don't say that it's the Dark One's luck. RJ has confirmed that. But why, and how does it work? I want to know that...

 

And I think others want too. I bet it'll play a role in AMoL.

[FarShainMael]

We first hear of Mat's luck in TGH 3, I believe (correct me if wrong). At this point Mat still has the dagger, though he has been partially healed by Moiraine earlier (TEotW42).

So whatever-it-was happened before this.

 

One thing that did happen was that Mat had a dream (TEotW43), in which he met Ba'alzamon, as did Rand in his own dream. They both saw three figures, and Mat picked up the one with the dagger, identifying himself. We don't see this from Mat's PoV; he told Rand about it, so we don't know what else happened to him in the dream; they were interrupted by Moiraine.

 

A thought occurs. Mat had the dagger at that point, and the dagger is full of SL evil - which we know is opposed to the DO's evil. Maybe, at that point, the DO or even Ba'al could not / did not want to take on Mat directly; in a sense, he was 'protected' by having the dagger. So perhaps Ba'al made him lucky, in the hope that it would somehow detach him from the dagger in time. How it ould do that I'm not sure, it depends on how much Ba'al knew about SL and the evil in it. We do know that it is possible to warp chance; there is a ter'angreal that will do it. Possibly Ba'al was trying for a random warping, to make Mat 'accidentally' lose the dagger.. but Mat's ta'verenness took over, and ensured that chance would be warped in his favour.

[Clayden69]

Rand #1 taveren- is the DR. Can channel and a bunch of other stuff needed to help win LB

 

(you can put Mat and Perrin in any order u want, but I'm putting Mat ahead)

 

Mat #2 taveren- has his luck and the dice in head warning of danger to come plus the memories, excellent captain blah blah blah. Will be needed to help win LB

 

Perrin #3 taveren- wolfbrother, ca talk to and to extent command(not the right word I know) wolves. Will be need to help win LB, the last hunt and all that jazz.

 

So, I just assumed that these were "talents"(I know wrong word again, i dont mean "talent" of the channelling sort except Rand) that the pattern had given its heroes from birth and they just needed to awake. You can obviously argue that if another person, being or entity gave Mats "luck" to him then it was the pattern fixing it all along, which would b true i guess. Remember in all of the "other" realities of Rand that we see, from portal stones and Egwenes views in ter'angreal, even when not taken from the village and having all the adventures he still learns to channel, I think this would also have been the case with Mat and his luck he wouldn't have got all the memories from the Aelfinn but would have still got the "Old Blood memories". Perrin would still have become a wolfbrother

[Aiyen kin Leary]

I kind of thought his luck came from the Dagger. We know it's not just standard Ta'veren at work, and there doesn't seem to be anything else special about him, barring his Old Tongue skill (until he goes to Finnland and gets the memories, medallion and ashandarei). If the Forsaken could grant that kind of luck the Shadow would have won long ago. Perhaps Shai'tan felt like taking a hand, but why strengthen hsi enemies, and particularly why Mat and no one else? If it's the dagger though, it fits together IMO.

[Tamia Sedai]

I don't think it has anything to do with how Mat got his powers. After all, didn't his Band say he had the "Dark One's luck" and they didn't know much about his past...

 

I think it is just a phrase to describe abnormally lucky people. For example, in the real world, people say someone has the devil's luck. If "Rob" lost to "Fred" in dice, "Rob" would exclaim that "Fred" had the devil's luck because he beat him so effectively.

 

And we've never heard anyone else say this phrase to someone besides Mat because no one has ever beat him in a dice game any number of times...

[Swithin]

I've thought about this before, but I haven't made any concrete sense of it. It's tempting to think that Mat somehow stole, swindled, or was gifted his good fortune from the DO, but there isn't a context for this (it also seems a bit too tidy to me without a major catch, even if it didn't have to be established retroactively.) I'm left staring at the weasel-words "in a way". Excluding explanations I can't predict, from least likely to most in my opinion:

 

1. Due to Ta'veren-ness or something else, Mat has absolutely perfect luck. In Randland this is referred to as the "Dark One's Own" brand, Mat is probably the only one who has it, so he's got to own up to the language.

 

2. Mat's luck is due to being Ta'veren. However, unlike Rand and Perrin's expression of Ta'veren (which skews probability around them so that what is good for the Pattern becomes much more likely, with no guarantee and occasional bizarre side-effects,) Mat's also forces what is "lucky for him" to happen (which, in the long run, is good for the Pattern.) The OP interacts with the world by modifying the Pattern, the TP destroys it (or otherwise does violence to it, according to RJ.) It's possible that Mat's "waveform-collapse" version of luck operates similarly to how the DO interacts with the world, destroying all possibilities that do not yield a positive result, although his luck is not a "gift" from the Dark at all.

 

3. It won't be explained further in AMoL, and RJ wanted this to be part of Mat's gambler mystique.

[Lacanos]

I think it's important to seperate Mat's luck from the Ta'veren effect referenced by Verin in TGS. She quite clearly talks about random coincidence being the hallmark of a Ta'veren, and that she could have been directed to either Mat or Perin.

 

The RJ quote seems pretty clear; in a way, Mat has the Dark One's luck. I've no idea how, but there we are.

[FarShainMael]

plus, try the searchbox up-top, except use it on the forum page instead of in-topic. and you will find many discussions as noted.

 

There's a problem, though. If you enter the terms 'Mat luck' into the search box you get this:

 

"One or all of your search keywords were below 4 characters or you searched for words which are not allowed, such as 'html', 'img', etc, please increase the length of these search keywords or choose different keywords."

[Din]

Has anyone considered that this phenomenon is simply another kind of talent like Min's viewings or Bair's Dreamwalking?

[Lacanos]

Has anyone considered that this phenomenon is simply another kind of talent like Min's viewings or Bair's Dreamwalking?

Yes. But unless it's granted by the Dark One, that's hard to fit with what RJ said.

[Nightstrike]

I wonder how the Dark One is lucky. I think he tries to make himself lucky. Mat seems to be "passively lucky". Unless it's something unconscious?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

plus, try the searchbox up-top, except use it on the forum page instead of in-topic. and you will find many discussions as noted.

 

There's a problem, though. If you enter the terms 'Mat luck' into the search box you get this:

 

"One or all of your search keywords were below 4 characters or you searched for words which are not allowed, such as 'html', 'img', etc, please increase the length of these search keywords or choose different keywords."

 

dark one's own luck, and if you get that message, you get shifted to the advanced search, which lets you proceed i think.

 

but ya, that is an annoying search fail. very very silly.

[Leyrann]

Rand #1 taveren- is the DR. Can channel and a bunch of other stuff needed to help win LB

 

(you can put Mat and Perrin in any order u want, but I'm putting Mat ahead)

 

Mat #2 taveren- has his luck and the dice in head warning of danger to come plus the memories, excellent captain blah blah blah. Will be needed to help win LB

 

Perrin #3 taveren- wolfbrother, ca talk to and to extent command(not the right word I know) wolves. Will be need to help win LB, the last hunt and all that jazz.

 

So, I just assumed that these were "talents"(I know wrong word again, i dont mean "talent" of the channelling sort except Rand) that the pattern had given its heroes from birth and they just needed to awake. You can obviously argue that if another person, being or entity gave Mats "luck" to him then it was the pattern fixing it all along, which would b true i guess. Remember in all of the "other" realities of Rand that we see, from portal stones and Egwenes views in ter'angreal, even when not taken from the village and having all the adventures he still learns to channel, I think this would also have been the case with Mat and his luck he wouldn't have got all the memories from the Aelfinn but would have still got the "Old Blood memories". Perrin would still have become a wolfbrother

 

 

I kind of thought his luck came from the Dagger. We know it's not just standard Ta'veren at work, and there doesn't seem to be anything else special about him, barring his Old Tongue skill (until he goes to Finnland and gets the memories, medallion and ashandarei). If the Forsaken could grant that kind of luck the Shadow would have won long ago. Perhaps Shai'tan felt like taking a hand, but why strengthen hsi enemies, and particularly why Mat and no one else? If it's the dagger though, it fits together IMO.

 

 

I've thought about this before, but I haven't made any concrete sense of it. It's tempting to think that Mat somehow stole, swindled, or was gifted his good fortune from the DO, but there isn't a context for this (it also seems a bit too tidy to me without a major catch, even if it didn't have to be established retroactively.) I'm left staring at the weasel-words "in a way". Excluding explanations I can't predict, from least likely to most in my opinion:

 

1. Due to Ta'veren-ness or something else, Mat has absolutely perfect luck. In Randland this is referred to as the "Dark One's Own" brand, Mat is probably the only one who has it, so he's got to own up to the language.

 

2. Mat's luck is due to being Ta'veren. However, unlike Rand and Perrin's expression of Ta'veren (which skews probability around them so that what is good for the Pattern becomes much more likely, with no guarantee and occasional bizarre side-effects,) Mat's also forces what is "lucky for him" to happen (which, in the long run, is good for the Pattern.) The OP interacts with the world by modifying the Pattern, the TP destroys it (or otherwise does violence to it, according to RJ.) It's possible that Mat's "waveform-collapse" version of luck operates similarly to how the DO interacts with the world, destroying all possibilities that do not yield a positive result, although his luck is not a "gift" from the Dark at all.

 

3. It won't be explained further in AMoL, and RJ wanted this to be part of Mat's gambler mystique.

 

You all say that Mat's luck is not the Dark One's and we are sure it is. So I think we should only talk about ways how Mat got the DO's luck. Does it also mean the Dark One doesn't have it anymore? That could explain the epic fail of the Forsaken...

[Hybrid]

I think it's important to seperate Mat's luck from the Ta'veren effect referenced by Verin in TGS. She quite clearly talks about random coincidence being the hallmark of a Ta'veren, and that she could have been directed to either Mat or Perin.

 

If I remember correctly, Verin directly comments on Mat's dicing ("Care to throw some dice?" or something of the sort) which implies that she believes his luck is connected with his being ta'veren.

[FarShainMael]

I think it's the DO's luck modified by Mat being Ta'veren.

 

(Called hedging your bets, folks..)

[Lacanos]

I think it's important to seperate Mat's luck from the Ta'veren effect referenced by Verin in TGS. She quite clearly talks about random coincidence being the hallmark of a Ta'veren, and that she could have been directed to either Mat or Perin.

 

If I remember correctly, Verin directly comments on Mat's dicing ("Care to throw some dice?" or something of the sort) which implies that she believes his luck is connected with his being ta'veren.

No it doesn't. It really doesn't mean anything of the sort.

Say Verin knows Mat has such luck. Mat's doubting whether what she's saying about his Ta'veren effect is true. Verin is effectively saying "your luck will confirm that I'm telling the truth".

[mackoY-kun]

I'm not sure with the time line here, so I'm just going on a leg here. Someone above said that Mat's Luck was sometime 'after' he got the Dagger. We all know that in the first book and then maybe in the second that Ishamael, aka Baalzamon repeatedly made contact with them through their dreams. Now when RJ explained how Rand Cleansed Saidin, he told a bunch of complex words about attraction and repulsion with regards to the taint(DO's evil) and SL's evil. What say you that he somehow 'drew' the DO's Luck from him through Ishamael with the SL dagger somehow? And later when he was healed, he somehow retains them because of his taveren nature? It doesn't explain the dice bouncing on his head and it's pretty far fetched.

[Durinax]

didnt ishy use some power on Mat, what if he used the True Power (as we know he is fond of) and since he was using the TP on mat, while mats physical self had the dagger, that may have had an unprecedented reaction.

[yoniy0]

cindy, FSM, our search engine is designed not to accept three-letter words. Unfortunately, that means you can't search for 'Mat'. 'Luck' would work, though, and even 'Matt', as you can always trust someone to spell it like that.

 

Also, Google does a great job, and you can add 'site:dragonmount.com' to your query.

[Louise]

You all say that Mat's luck is not the Dark One's and we are sure it is. So I think we should only talk about ways how Mat got the DO's luck. Does it also mean the Dark One doesn't have it anymore? That could explain the epic fail of the Forsaken...

Oh I love that theory... It would be nice if there was actually a reason for their patheticness. Unfortunately though, it would seem unlikely.

[FarShainMael]

cindy, FSM, our search engine is designed not to accept three-letter words. Unfortunately, that means you can't search for 'Mat'. 'Luck' would work, though, and even 'Matt', as you can always trust someone to spell it like that.

 

Also, Google does a great job, and you can add 'site:dragonmount.com' to your query.

 

I'll try that next time, thanks.