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Mat's luck is the Dark One's


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Just had this revelation/connection in the last day or so: Does not a forsaken say that Fain has the Dark One's own luck? Or was it Slayer?


Anyway, I actually think there's something distinctly to this. Perhaps Fain also has Mat's luck - we just don't see it in gambling.

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Just had this revelation/connection in the last day or so: Does not a forsaken say that Fain has the Dark One's own luck? Or was it Slayer?


Anyway, I actually think there's something distinctly to this. Perhaps Fain also has Mat's luck - we just don't see it in gambling.


I don't know what quote you're referring to, or if it's even correct, but if it is, then I think we have fairly conclusive evidence that Mat's luck comes from the Dagger.

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Just had this revelation/connection in the last day or so: Does not a forsaken say that Fain has the Dark One's own luck? Or was it Slayer?


Anyway, I actually think there's something distinctly to this. Perhaps Fain also has Mat's luck - we just don't see it in gambling.


I don't know what quote you're referring to, or if it's even correct, but if it is, then I think we have fairly conclusive evidence that Mat's luck comes from the Dagger.



It's correct. It's from a talk Perrin has with Slayer. Slayer tells him he came for Fain, who's in Two Rivers to torture Rand's family/friends, so he'll come to deal with him.

Slayer is sent to take him out, but he fails again and again, hence the thing about a lot of luck.

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1) I rather like the idea it's linked to the Horn of Valere in some way, it did arrive at the same time.

Not quite the same time, though. Mat's luck was already good enough to comment on by the beginning of TGH, well before he blew the Horn. Not at its peak, but already unusual.

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I decided to compile some quotes that seemed important to me concerning luck, ta'veren and Mat. Hopefully it will help with the discussion. Enjoy!


tEotW: Chapter 8 - A Place of Safety

~Lan telling Rand about Myrdraal

"Halfmen have the Dark One's own luck."


and again


tEotW: Chapter 49 - The Dark One Stirs

~Lan explaining about Worms to Mat

"A Worm" - there was a sharp difference in the way the Warder said it from the way Mat had - "can kill a Fade, if the Fade hasn't the Dark One's own luck with it. We have an entire pack on our trail. Ride! Ride!"


tEotW: Chapter 18 - The Caemlyn Road

~Another interesting things Lan says

"Nothing stops them, gleeman," the Warder said. "We trust to the Light and luck. But now we know for certain there are Trollocs behind us."


tEotW: Chapter 32 - Four Kings in Shadow

~Rand's thoughts after he channels lightening at the Four Kings

"Nothing," Rand said. Luck. The Light's own . . . Is it? Shivering, he carefully guided Mat around the bodies. "Just the lightning."

This quote is particularly interesting. It introduces us to the idea that the Light has its own brand of luck. But Rand questions whether it was the Light's luck in this instance, implying the DO's luck may have been at work here.


tGH: Chapter 3 - Friends and Enemies

~Mat's first reference to his luck

"I seem to have luck with the dice. I can hardly touch them without winning."


tGH: Chapter 14 - Wolf Brother

~Ingtar speaking to Perrin after Perrin reveals the wolves can help track the group of trollocs for them

"Wolves are considered good luck in the Borderlands."


tGH: Chapter 27 - The Shadow in the Night

~Lanfear to Rand; perhaps a reference to ta'veren luck

"It is said great men make their own luck," Selene said softly.


tDR: Chapter 24 - Scouting and Discoveries

~Mat associates his luck with the tossing of dice, but hopes it will help him in battle too

When he turned back, the quarterstaff in both hands before him, Gawyn and Galad were already waiting out where they had been practicing. I have to win. “Luck,” he muttered. “Time to toss the dice.”


tDR: Chapter 30 - The First Toss

~Mat's luck is associated with the DO for the first time

“The Dark One’s own luck,” another man growled.


a couple paragraphs after


~Mat draws a connection between his luck and the SL dagger

Burn me, not the Dark One’s luck. Not that! Oh, Light, did that bloody dagger really do something to me?


and again a few paragraphs later


~Mat continues on the vein of the SL dagger bringing him luck; perhaps the strongest evidence

He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from

Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away

with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed.

His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever

defenses he put up. But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck

had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth. He remembered playing at dice back home,

with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac. He

remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and

four pence.


tDR: Chapter 32 - The First Ship

~Mat wondering where to assign the blame for his luck

“It isn’t the dice,” Mat muttered. “It’s the luck.” Aes Sedai luck? Or the Dark One’s luck? He pushed the dice back into the cup and capped it.


tDR: Chapter 40 - A Hero in the Night

~After this exchange, Mat and Thom do find a stable to sleep in after all, even though Mat wanted to get a bed... they also get TWO horses

The soldier eyed him up and down, examined Thom and his gleeman’s cloak, then shifted back to Mat. “Captain, is it? Well, boy, you’ll have the Dark One’s own luck if you find a stable to sleep in. Most of this lot are sleeping under hedges. And if you find a horse that hasn’t been slaughtered for cooking, you’ll likely have to fight the man who owns it to make him sell.”


tDR: Chapter 45 - Caemlyn

~This is an interesting little exchange. First, we have another connection between Mat's luck and the DO's. Second, when Mat spins the dice, the cat leaps down and hisses at Mat, as though threatened. Thirdly, Mat rolls what is called The Dark One's Eyes: the best or the worst hand, depending on the game. A very interesting little exchange. Oh, and Mat does escape with his life =]

“How under the Light,” Gill said, “do you mean to enter the Royal Palace without passing the Guards?” His eyes widened as if he were remembering something. “Light, you don’t mean to . . . . Lad, you’d need the Dark One’s own luck to escape with your life!”


“What are you going on about now, Basel? Mat, what fool thing do you intend to try?”


“I am lucky, Master Gill,” Mat said. “You just have a good meal waiting when I come back.” As he stood, he picked up the dice cup and spun the dice out beside the stones board for luck. The calico cat leaped down, hissing at him with her back arched. The five spotted dice came to rest, each showing a single pip. The Dark One’s Eyes.


“That’s the best toss or the worst,” Gill said. “It depends on the game you are playing, doesn’t it.


tDR: Chapter 49 - A Storm in Tear

~Here we witness the power of Mat's luck in a tangible way, when he dices using weighted dice

He spilled the dice onto the tabletop. They bounced oddly. He felt something shifting. It was as if his luck had gone wild. The room seemed to be writhing around him, tugging at the dice with threads. For some reason he wanted to look at the door, but he kept his eyes on the dice. They came to rest. Five crowns. Comar’s eyes looked ready to pop out of his head.


and just a couple pages later


~Mat describes how his luck works; it's connected to randomness... perhaps this is how it is like the DO's

“It’s the luck,” Mat mumbled. “I’ve figured it out. The dice. My luck works best when things are . . .

random. Like dice. Not much good for cards. No good at stones. Too much pattern. It has to be

random. Even finding Comar. I’d stopped visiting every inn. I walked into that one by chance. Thom, if I

am going to find Egwene and the others in time, I have to look without any pattern.”


tSR: Chapter 2 - Whirlpools in the Pattern

~Here Mat is playing cards with some lords of Tear, and lot long after this quote, the bubble of evil appears, but it's far enough away from this quote not to be related. The interesting thing here is that Mat feels his luck differently depending on the situation... a tickling rather than a tingling...

Suddenly he could feel luck tickling his mind. Not tingling as it did with the dice, of course, but he was already certain no one was going to beat four rulers.


tSR: Chapter 22 - Out of the Stone

~This is actually from the PoV of Rand. I've been leaving out the dozens of quotes regarding Rand's own luck, but I figured I'd throw this in here because it's a clear statement concerning the way ta'veren luck works. Just to consider how it's different with Mat...

Now was when he needed luck, needed that ta’veren tugging at chance to favor him.


tFoH: Chapter 3 - Pale Shadows

~This exchange came after Mat threw a dagger into a thrown piece of wood blindfolded... Mat, who previously attributed his luck to the SL dagger, now seems unsure of where it came from

Finally one of Kadere's men half-shouted, "The Dark One's own luck, that!"


"Luck is a horse to ride like any other," Mat said to himself. No matter where it came from. Not that he knew where his luck came from; he only tried 'to ride it as best he could.


tFoH: Chapter 51 - News Comes to Cairhien

~This exchange occurs while Melindhra is trying to kill Mat, revealing herself a DF... the first time, I think, a DF recognizes Mat's particular brand of luck

“Some oaths are more important than others, Mat Cauthon.” The slim-bladed knife came up swiftly, all her remaining strength behind it, the point driving the dangling foxhead against his chest. The silver medallion should not have stopped a blade, but the angle was just that much wrong, and some hidden flaw in the steel snapped the blade off right at the hilt just as he caught her hand. “You have the Great Lord’s own luck.”


LoC: Prologue - The First Message

~I just thought I'd throw this one in here because I thought it held some interesting threads, particularly that Demandred was a gambler (Mat's counterpart?)

Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether she did so from excitement or fear. It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable. Demandred was the gambler. He was right about one thing; Lews Therin had made his own luck as a mint made coin. In her opinion it seemed that so far Rand al'Thor did the same.


LoC: Chapter 3 - A Woman's Eyes

~Another quote referencing Rand's own luck... even in linking it to the DO's!

"I suppose I shouldn't be surprised if every one of these simpletons passes," the hawk-nosed man muttered with a glance at Rand. "You seem to have luck enough for ten men."


and a few paragraphs later


Taim caught up to him before he and the Maidens were halfway back to the trees. "If you stay a little longer, you can learn the test." Exasperation touched his voice. "If I really do find four or five more, anyway, which truly won't surprise me. You do seem to have the Dark One's own luck.


LoC: Chapter 5 - A Different Dance

~This is an interesting citation... here Mat reveals that his luck runs in cycles, and it's not always in effect. Interesting that his luck should be cyclic

"Not so," Mat protested. True, when his luck was in, it was perfect, but it ran in cycles, especially with things that had as much order as a-deck of cards. "Blood and ashes! You won fifty crowns from me last week."


LoC: Chapter 33 - Courage to Strengthen

~In Mat's PoV, Rand's ta'veren pull could supercede his own luck. I think this can attest to the strength of Rand's own ta'veren luck

Sometimes, though, being ta'veren worked against his luck; that was the way he saw it. He believed Rand had something to do with that; he was more strongly ta'veren, strong enough that at times Mat almost felt a pulling. When Rand put his finger in, Mat would not be surprised to find himself in the middle of a battle if he was asleep in a barn.


LoC: Chapter 47 - The Wandering Woman

~Here we see Mat connecting the dice in his head with his luck. As well, he notes that it often has to do with important events

Mat did not understand why he suddenly felt the dice rolling in his head.


He knew that sensation well. Sometimes he felt it when his luck was running strong in the gambling. It was always there when a battle was in the offing. And it seemed to come when there was a vital decision to make, the sort where the wrong choice might well get his throat cut.


LoC: Chapter 52 - Weaves of the Power

~Another reference to the nature of Mat's luck as being cyclic

Rattling the five dice in the leather cup, Mat spun them out on the table. They stopped with two crowns, two stars and a cup showing. A fair toss; no better. His luck ran in waves, and at the moment the wave seemed low, meaning he won no more than half his tosses at most. So far he had managed to lose ten in

a row, an unusual run for him at any time.


aCoS: Chapter 13 - The Bowl of Winds

~Not that this is gospel coming from Elayne, but what she says here about ta'veren and luck is worth noting (and she IS speaking of Mat)

Elayne was more soothing; she probably would try to make peace in a water-feud. "He is ta'veren, Nynaeve. He alters the Pattern, alters chance, just being there. I'm ready to admit we need luck, and a ta'veren is more than luck.


aCoS: Chapter 17 - The Triumph of Logic

~Just a fun quote

"It's good to be lucky," Mat croaked.


aCoS: Chapter 38 - Six Stories

~Here, we see Mat's luck being connected to him being ta'veren again, as in the last quote

Beslan nodded in commiseration. "If we're lucky, though.... The Civil Guard does send patrols to the Rahad occasionally, and if they're after smugglers,- they always dress like anyone else. They seem to think nobody will notice a dozen or so men together carrying swords, whatever they wear, and they're always surprised when the smugglers ambush them, which is what nearly always happens. If Mat's ta'veren luck works for us, we might be taken for the Civil Guard, and some smugglers might attack us before they see the red belts." Nalesean brightened and began rubbing his hands together.


I didn't find anything particularly relevant about luck in tPoD. Although, I supposed I could take this opportunity to say that I find it interesting that Mat's wife, Tuon, comes from a culture which is highly superstitious and fastidious in warding off bad luck and inviting good luck.


WH: Prologue - Snow

~Again, Rand links his luck to being ta'veren

"I don't know how long it will take, and once I start, I think everyone within a thousand miles of me who can channel will know something is happening. I doubt I'll be able to just stop if Dashiva and the rest, or the Forsaken, suddenly appear to see what it is. The Forsaken, I can't do anything about, but with luck, I can finish the others." Maybe being ta'veren would give him the edge he needed so desperately.


WH: Chapter 1 - Leaving the Prophet

~Balwer reporting to Perrin

The Whitecloaks took part in the battle, but apparently Valda managed to get most of them off the field at the end. He has the Dark One's own luck.


WH: Chapter 10 - A Plan Succeeds

~Birgitte reporting to Elayne, another connection between ta'veren and luck... and more, there is an implication here that Elayne has the luck of a ta'veren... of course, we know it's not luck at all... Mellar is a DF and the whole attack was staged

"A lucky thing the first man to reach you didn't have this; one stab, and you'd be dead. A lucky thing Mellar happened to be walking by and heard a man cursing in your rooms. Enough luck for a ta'veren."


WH: Chapter 16 - An Unexpected Encounter

~Mat first meets Noal

The old man shrugged. "I'm not certain anyone out there understood what I was shouting. It's hard enough understanding them. Anyway, I thought it might scare off the fellow. Seeing that, though ..." Gesturing toward the hole in the wall, he laughed mirthlessly, showing gaps in his teeth. "I think maybe you and I both have the Dark One's own luck."


Mat grimaced. He had heard that too often about himself, and he did not like it. Mainly because he was not sure it was not true. "Maybe we do," he muttered.


CoT: Chapter 1 - Time to be Gone

~This is interesting for a simple reason... Fate seems like something closely related with being ta'veren. So here, we see a distinction between ta'veren "luck" and Mat's luck. By the way, this is from Mat's PoV

Fate and luck were different, unfortunately.


CoT: Chapter 18 - A Chat with Siuan

~This is just an interesting quote I found about Egwene. For all the skill people think Egwene has, I wonder how much of it is actually luck. Perhaps some ta'veren luck has rubbed off on her after all!

With luck, I'll convince the sisters to accept being freed of the Three Oaths so they can retire into the Kin before they ever learn there's a bargain with the Atha'an Miere. And once they accept any sister being freed of the Oaths, it won't be nearly as hard to convince them to let the Sea Folk sisters go. Beside that, the rest of that agreement is small turnips. As you keep saying, skill and a deft hand are necessary to get anything done in the Hall, but luck is absolutely required. Well, I'll be as skillful and deft as I can be, and as for luck, the odds seem to be in my favor for once."


Siuan grimaced and hemmed and hawed, but she had to agree in the end. She even agreed that Egwene might pull it off, with luck, and timing.


CoT: Chapter 28 - A Cluster of Rosebuds

~This was an excellent find, and I couldn't be more thrilled about it! This prophecy recited by Noal is clearly about Mat. The most telling part, I think, is the phrase "Luck his soul." It suggests that his luck is actually inherent, rather than given. I wonder how this connects to "gives up have the light of the world" prophesy, considering that Fortune here is compared to the sun, and his eye is lightning. The eyes are often considered the gateway to the soul, and if his soul is Luck, will his loss of one eye hamper his luck, perhaps?

Suddenly Noal slapped his thigh and sat up straight. "I remember now," he said, and then the fool began to recite.

"Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky."

The broken-nosed old man looked around as if just realizing anyone else was there. "I've been trying to remember that. It's from the Prophecies of the Dragon."


KoD: Chapter 6 - A Stave and a Razor

~Again, he distinguishes clearly between ta'veren "luck" and his personal luck

He always tried to avoid fighting, though his luck seldom did him much good there. Ta'veren took over with that, it seemed. The dice had never before signaled a fight-battles, yes, but never a dust-up in the street-yet he walked very carefully indeed.


KoD: Chapter 33 - Nine out of Ten

~This coming from Birgitte, it says a lot (about Mat and his luck)

"Let's just say he's luckier than any other man I've ever met."


And I think I will leave it at that. I know I didn't cover all the books, but I'm tired.

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Can I get more details as to why you are SURE there is more to this?

There's nothing more to the quote itself; our disagreement is a linguistic one. I can't see RJ statement meaning what you want it to mean, that's all. That doesn't mean I'm right, but naturally I think so :smile:

Hehe.. there isn't a "want" in any of my assertions in all this. I just don't think Jordan was trying to put us all on a search for the connection between the DO and Matrim..I don't "want" it to mean even the situations I pointed out. I was just trying to give examples of how the comments could be innocent fun on his part, and were not to be taken as anything more...serious.


I think I should point out one other thing that gives me serious doubts there isn't any real connection between the 2; if there IS a point where Matrim stole/received/found a connection unconsciously to the DO's luck, it would be a big deal.


It would mean it has ramifications in the Last Battle, otherwise why would Jordan make the connection at all? In other words, you don't put Chekov's gun into a story without having good reasons for the gun in the first place further into the story. And if this IS a hint to the future, there have been very few signs besides people noting "he has the Dark one's luck" (and a snarky comment during an interview), nor is there any ideas as to what that could mean in regards to what will happen due to the connection in the Last Battle.


Does that make sense? I guess I just don't see BS showing us in MoL that there is indeed a strong connection between Matrim and the DO, then explaining the results of that connection, when he is trying to wrap things up. I would have expect a bit more foreshadowing on this topic, even subtly. I just see a lot of people saying, "Whoa, thats a funky connection!! Wait... what does it MEAN?"... because up to this point, none of us have any clue.


Then again.. I'm often wrong. =)

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I really wasn't making a statement regarding your desires there. I don't believe any of your explanations merits RJ's comment (assuming he was truthful, which I indeed do). Therefore, I maintain it has to be something more.


And will it really be any weirder than the BUT?

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